Ulrich, apparent doper

[Bro Deal]

Things are pretty quite over at The Daily Doping Apologist. It's like a freakin ghost town over there.

 

[helmutRoole2]

But how good is the racing with EPO and blood doping? We have been treated to boring Tours, where Armstrong and his henchmen controlled the race until the last few kilometers and then there was a mad surge on the last bit of road to gain a little time. I think Indurain was doped to the gills also, but even his boring Tour wins were exciting by comparison. We have GTs where the doped never have a bad day. There are no more climbing specialists anymore; the only way a climber has of winning is a long suicide break. The GTs are raced like there is almost an understanding between the competitors that their doping programs have already preordained the winner.

True dat, Bro. I don't know. There must be some middle ground. I'll tell what, this zero tolerance is futile.

 

[meehs]

But how good is the racing with EPO and blood doping? We have been treated to boring Tours, where Armstrong and his henchmen controlled the race until the last few kilometers and then there was a mad surge on the last bit of road to gain a little time. I think Indurain was doped to the gills also, but even his boring Tour wins were exciting by comparison. We have GTs where the doped never have a bad day. There are no more climbing specialists anymore; the only way a climber has of winning is a long suicide break. The GTs are raced like there is almost an understanding between the competitors that their doping programs have already preordained the winner.

I agree to an extent Bro. But in my opinion Indurain's mechanical victories where all the time was gained in the TT's were easily just as boring as LA's dominant team driven victories, if not moreso. We did see LA struggle a couple of times at least. Ulle challenged fairly seriously in 2003 and made that an interesting race. Landis completely collapsed last year on Stage 16 to La Toussuire! The excitement is there if you look for it. I do miss TdF's like the one in 1989 too though. But those are rare! Overall the other GT's (especially the Giro) have been more interesting than the TdF in recent years.

 

[Bro Deal]

I agree to an extent Bro. But in my opinion Indurain's mechanical victories where all the time was gained in the TT's were easily just as boring as LA's dominant team driven victories, if not moreso. We did see LA struggle a couple of times at least. Ulle challenged fairly seriously in 2003 and made that an interesting race. Landis completely collapsed last year on Stage 16 to La Toussuire! The excitement is there if you look for it. I do miss TdF's like the one in 1989 too though. But those are rare! Overall the other GT's (especially the Giro) have been more interesting than the TdF in recent years.

At the time of Indurain I did not think it could get any worse; then Armstrong came along. It's true that Indurain gained almost all his time in time trials. There were still fairly small groups in the mountains. Indurain would just follow, but there was at least an illusion of a competition between the elite. When we get to Armstrong's Team Dope there were huge groups going over the passes.

I don't think last year was usual. Something happened to the dope supply during July. We got a very atypical race where the contenders all had bad days of varying severity. Best Tour since 1989.

True that the Giro and Vuelta have been better races than the Tour by far. But I have felt for a long time that EPO/blood doiping and the scientific use of dope has robbed the sport of much of its drama. Combine that race radios, better road conditions, et cetera and the sport does not seem like it used to be.

 

[limerickman]

How does this make you feel?

Taking the CN report at face value - it certainly looks bad for JU.
How do I feel? I am disappointed that JU appears to have doped.

Does it destroy your faith in clean sport?

My faith in the sport was eroded when, with the TDF in my country in 1998, the Festina scandal broke.
I had thought that perhaps they weren't all doping - because some riders rode consistently throughout their careers.

Do you think that Ulrich and a handful of other dopers are the exception, not the rule?

Not sure.

Since 1998 - all of the major tour winners have been implicated in doping controversies.
It would appear that doping may have been the rule.

If you liked Ulrich, does this now make you not like him?

I liked Ullrich - but I cannot condone doping.

Do you think it's possible that there is a conspiracy in place? If so, let's hear it.

If the DNA matches - and according to the report it does match - then it is hard to see where there is a conspiracy.

Do you think Ulrich has been doping since he was little pup or just later in his career or maybe just this one transgression?

Ullrich has ridden at a consistently high level throughout his career.

It could be the case that knowing that his fellow competitors suddenly improved when having doped - that he may have felt that he had dope in order to compete.
Of course, this doesn't exonerate Ullrich.

Maybe he didn't dope at all? How many think donating blood is a plausible explanation for Ulrich's dna match?

Sportsmen have a duty of care to account for everything that they consume.
Sportsmen have a duty of care to account for any blood which may be transfused out of their body.

All athletes know the rules - to say that they don't know why blood has been removed from their body is no defence.
Just as it is no defence for them to say that they cannot account for synthetic EPO in their bodies.

Did he quit the sport because he knew the end was near?

I don't know.

 

[Bro Deal]

What is the chance that anything good will come out of this?

Does the "bad apples defense" go away or do people still claim that it's just a few riders and certainly not the ones they are fans of?

I would like to see the ASO insist on a CSC-like testing program for all teams that want to compete in the Tour. I would say I would like to see the UCI require something similar but I don't have a lot of faith in the UCI.

 

[limerickman]

UCI's the root of the problem.

They decided to look the other way after Festina in 1998.

The sport is incapable of self regulation.

 

[helmutRoole2]

I'm going to go ride my bicycle.

 

[meehs]

Does the "bad apples defense" go away or do people still claim that it's just a few riders and certainly not the ones they are fans of?

Nothing new here Bro. This has what's been going on here on this forum for a long time. When the evidence against Armstrong first surfaced all of the LA haters came out saying: "I told you so", "he's a lousy dope cheat", "he's a scoundrel", blah, blah, blah... My response was and has always been: "So??? Do you really think his competitors are clean???"

Now that evidence has surfaced about Ulle (and I personally can't understand how this can surprise anyone) the same people that were calling LA a doper are now the ones saying: "yeah, well they all do it". Or just trying to divert the conversation to one about the general horrible state of cycling. Instead of trying to blame all of the ills of the sport on one rider. Which is exactly what they were trying to do before when it was LA's turn.

What a joke! The tables have turned.

 

[thebluetrain]

Nothing new here Bro. This has what's been going on here on this forum for a long time. When the evidence against Armstrong first surfaced all of the LA haters came out saying: "I told you so", "he's a lousy dope cheat", "he's a scoundrel", blah, blah, blah... My response was and has always been: "So??? Do you really think his competitors are clean???"

Now that evidence has surfaced about Ulle (and I personally can't understand how this can surprise anyone) the same people that were calling LA a doper are now the ones saying: "yeah, well they all do it". Or just trying to divert the conversation to one about the general horrible state of cycling. Instead of trying to blame all of the ills of the sport on one rider. Which is exactly what they were trying to do before when it was LA's turn.

What a joke! The tables have turned.

+1
Should be an interesting forum in the weeks to come.

 

[limerickman]

Nothing new here Bro. This has what's been going on here on this forum for a long time. When the evidence against Armstrong first surfaced all of the LA haters came out saying: "I told you so", "he's a lousy dope cheat", "he's a scoundrel", blah, blah, blah... My response was and has always been: "So??? Do you really think his competitors are clean???"

Now that evidence has surfaced about Ulle (and I personally can't understand how this can surprise anyone) the same people that were calling LA a doper are now the ones saying: "yeah, well they all do it". Or just trying to divert the conversation to one about the general horrible state of cycling. Instead of trying to blame all of the ills of the sport on one rider. Which is exactly what they were trying to do before when it was LA's turn.

What a joke! The tables have turned.

All you can say to that - is that now they all appear to have doped.

So no one is exonerated, Meehs.

 

[meehs]

All you can say to that - is that now they all appear to have doped.

So no one is exonerated, Meehs.

Technically I suppose that's true Lim. But I think it's pretty clear what's going on. And in my opinion one would have to be pretty niave to believe otherwise. I'm just as big a fan of Ulle as I ever was of LA. And I've never been one to say that these guys don't use PED's.

 

[Bro Deal]

What a joke! The tables have turned.

I don't think so. I think it's more a situation where every revelation puts the sport another step down a deep dark hole. Final proof that Ullrich was doping is just a bigger step than usual just as Armstrong's EPO use was another big step.

 

[thebluetrain]

Nothing new here Bro. This has what's been going on here on this forum for a long time. When the evidence against Armstrong first surfaced all of the LA haters came out saying: "I told you so", "he's a lousy dope cheat", "he's a scoundrel", blah, blah, blah... My response was and has always been: "So??? Do you really think his competitors are clean???"

Now that evidence has surfaced about Ulle (and I personally can't understand how this can surprise anyone) the same people that were calling LA a doper are now the ones saying: "yeah, well they all do it". Or just trying to divert the conversation to one about the general horrible state of cycling. Instead of trying to blame all of the ills of the sport on one rider. Which is exactly what they were trying to do before when it was LA's turn.

What a joke! The tables have turned.

Meeh's if you would like some interesting reading, stroll back through past threads and posts. You'll find some funny stuff. I came across some when I went back and found Bro Deals post. It doesnt get much better than what was said about JU and LA leading up to todays news about JU.

 

[meehs]

I don't think so. I think it's more a situation where every revelation puts the sport another step down a deep dark hole. Final proof that Ullrich was doping is just a bigger step than usual just as Armstrong's EPO use was another big step.

I hear you Bro. All of the doping publicity certainly isn't good for the sport. Far from it. Especially when it invovles the top names. But the top names are the ones that create the buzz and the ones that reporters follow around to dig through their trash. It's not that the other guys don't do it. It's just that no one gives a damn so it's not worth the time. Reporting that Matthew Goss has been found to be doping doesn't sell newspapers.

 

[limerickman]

Technically I suppose that's true Lim. But I think it's pretty clear what's going on. And in my opinion one would have to be pretty niave to believe otherwise. I'm just as big a fan of Ulle as I ever was of LA. And I've never been one to say that these guys don't use PED's.

I disagree with you on this from the point of view that when Festina broke, the UCI were aware that organised doping existed in a part of the peloton.
Festina had a team which pooled money, sourced dope and organised a pretty good doping ring.

Knowing those facts at that time, the UCI did not show the political will to take on doping.
They didn't even bother to investigate other teams.
In that environment, it was clear that the UCI's ambivalence on doping would allow doping to take place and prosper.

If the UCI had taken action - we may not have the problems that we have had since 1998.

I don't think that Ullrich being found to have doped exonerates anyone or anything.

 

[whiteboytrash]

Bild has reported that there has been rioting in the streets of the former East Germany about the Ullrich positive match.... photos are being posted to the website as we speak.... things look grim... this could be the start of the cold war again..... over 1000 mumma Ullrich look-a-likes have stormed the former sports school in Rostock that Ullrich grew up in.... (the school closed down 15 years ago but don't tell them that)....... ps there won't be any bratwurst in the shops tomorrow morning as the Mumma Ullrich's go on strike......

 

[whiteboytrash]

Lim - I'd go so far to say that the UCI knew well before Festina and particpated in sweeping doping under the carpet. They couldn't act as they were involved. ***** Voet revealed this at the Festina trials of 2000. This was backed up in 2005 in the Armstrong EPO case.

I disagree with you on this from the point of view that when Festina broke, the UCI were aware that organised doping existed in a part of the peloton.
Festina had a team which pooled money, sourced dope and organised a pretty good doping ring.

Knowing those facts at that time, the UCI did not show the political will to take on doping.
They didn't even bother to investigate other teams.
In that environment, it was clear that the UCI's ambivalence on doping would allow doping to take place and prosper.

If the UCI had taken action - we may not have the problems that we have had since 1998.

 

[meehs]

Whoa! Guys! I didn't mean to imply in any way that I don't think that things might be different had the UCI acted appropriately when they had the chance. I agree with you about that.

 

[Bro Deal]

Meeh's if you would like some interesting reading, stroll back through past threads and posts. You'll find some funny stuff. I came across some when I went back and found Bro Deals post. It doesnt get much better than what was said about JU and LA leading up to todays news about JU.

LOL. You search through my old posts, ignoring all the anti-dope ones, and all you can come up with is a comparison between Ullrich's one ecstacy positive and Armstrong's mutliple EPO positives? You could not come up with a gem like this one from yourself (referring to Armstrong's EPO tests):

With no chance of ever retesting the A samples you will never get me to believe it.