Unbridled Hostility

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Claire Petersky, Jul 25, 2003.

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  1. Patrick Lamb

    Patrick Lamb Guest

    Claire Petersky wrote:
    > Traffic volumes on the road have skyrocketed over the years, as the road helps connect suburban
    > homes with the Microsoft Corporate Campus. Speeding is endemic. If you are headed north and choose
    > the road over wrong-way cycling on the bike lane, you will have people passing you on a narrow
    > roadway at 40+ mph. The high motor traffic volumes and speeds are potentially deadly to
    > pedestrians. One of my child's classmates, an 8 year old boy named Billy, was struck by an SUV
    > this last school year while attempting to cross the road to catch a school bus. He survived, but
    > still struggles with brain injury-related disabilities.
    >
    > I was stunned by the unbridled hostility from the lake side residents. They hate bicycles.
    > Cyclists don't care about property values. Cyclists don't have to ride bikes. They certainly could
    > choose to ride somewhere else. Who cares about safety. Safety is not important. No children are
    > ever going to want to walk on West Lake Sammamish anyway. (Since Billy was struck, that might be
    > true -- how many parents are going to have their child catch the school bus on that road these
    > days? Hm? They're going to drive that kid in the SUV to school instead, doncha think?) Repaving
    > the road will just encourage more speeders. Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage
    > more speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will fight these improvements tooth and nail, and we have
    > the money to be able to do that. The City had better watch out.
    >
    > In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using the road for any other
    > purpose other than to drive to their lakeside or lake view home. And the operative word here is
    > *hate* -- the level of emotional venom was bracing.

    Just out of curiosity, has anyone surveyed the area for the density of Asperger's Syndrome-afflicted
    residents? It sounds to me as though this should be a support group, instead of a city-sponsored
    barbecue. (If AS support group isn't already an oxymoron!)

    Or maybe you just need to get Microsoft's marketing department (or billg himself) to decide they
    need to back up the bicycle lanes. Sounds like this crowd cannot or will not listen to anybody but
    themselves.

    Oh what the heck, we haven't had a good flame war in, what, twenty minutes? Just remember these are
    the same people who made Microsoft a byword for secure programming, customer responsiveness, and
    timely delivery of new, high-quality, products.

    (I should guess that there's probably a high proportion of residents, if it is a MS suburb, that's
    getting to middle age and finding it difficult to keep up with the endless 20-hour work days,
    enormous pressure, and unrealistic deadlines. And if they've been there long enough to buy the
    multi-million houses with the proceeds of stock options, they probably don't know or don't remember
    that sane work places exist. Or that it's possible to work AND have a life...)

    Pat
    --
    Apologies to those easily confused. Address is spam-resistant. Correct email address like pdlamb
    'round-about comcast point net.
     


  2. On 26 Jul 2003 07:50:33 -0700, [email protected] (Corvus Corvax) wrote:

    >
    >It's an unfortunate fact, but every time you throw your leg over a bicycle it's a political act.

    Oh, bullshit.

    Get over yourself.
     
  3. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:30:01 GMT, cyclist101 <[email protected]> from Road Runner - Texas wrote:

    >Kevan Smith wrote:
    >>>Neighborhoods should be free to determine their own destiny. They have property values to
    >>>protect. They live there. Why should they be subjected to intrusions or mandates from others who
    >>>don't live there?
    >>
    >> Streets are usually public. If they want private roads, they can pay for them on their own. But I
    >> don't think they'll be wanting to buy a highway, even if they were allowed.
    >
    >Most streets in gated communities, which CC mentioned, *are* private.

    The highway the project is for isn't.

    --
    http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace a filthy Fiord is a new radar?
    5:34:05 PM 26 July 2003
     
  4. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:59:30 -0700, Zoot Katz <[email protected]> from Balsa Pacific Aero Ltd.
    Engineering & Bicycle Mongery wrote:

    >Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:38:55 -0500, <[email protected]>, Kevan Smith
    ><[email protected]/\/\> wrote: \szip
    >>I don't even think about eating hot dogs unless I can have at least three. One per person? Sheesh.
    >>That's just teasing.
    >
    >One tofu veggie dog is sufficient for me, thanks.

    Groovy. More good ones for me!

    --
    http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace a filthy Fiord is a new radar?
    5:34:05 PM 26 July 2003
     
  5. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Marc VanHeyningen) writes:
    > Thus said [email protected] (Tom Keats):
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> [email protected] (Claire Petersky) writes:
    >>> Adding a shoulder or bike lane will just encourage more speeders. We will hire lawyers. We will
    >>> fight these improvements tooth and nail, and we have the money to be able to do that. The City
    >>> had better watch out.
    >>
    >>If they can afford lawyers for all that, they surely could afford to put up for some traffic
    >>calming measures, which can be quite decorative (double-duty as planters, etc).
    >
    > We're not talking about a residential street here, but a road where traffic calming isn't
    > appropriate. It was a significant road before they built their houses there.

    That's pretty much what I understood from Claire's post, wherein I noted the residents mentioned
    they were worried about these proposed improvements encouraging more speeders. But just about any
    road can be traffic calmed to a degree, with speed humps/bumps, decorative islands and suchlike.
    Even letting pavement go fallow (as seems to be the case here) is a form of traffic calming, albeit
    an ugly one. But I think the residents' concerns about "speeders" is just an excuse to be against
    the proposed improvements. That would be rather ironic, since it seems to be a real issue.

    With the example I posted, my intent was not to describe any specific approaches such as traffic
    calming, but rather how change can be nicely introduced to a hesitant or resistant constituency.
    Claire's obviously already on top of that. As she notes in a subsequent post: "What would be great
    would be to find a lakeside resident willing to speak on the behalf of the project, but peer
    pressure is very great." Mighty dam-breaks from tiny hairline cracks spring. Not everybody all at
    once needs to be convinced, to get things moving. Consensus building often starts with a single
    cornerstone of somebody being on-side.

    But it looks like convincing this community is going to be a delicate diplomatic balancing act. And
    the last thing needed here would be vocal, militant, self-styled "advocates" queering the deal.
    Claire gets a tip o' the hat from me, for her exercising great restraint at this BBQ function. I
    think I would have been strongly tempted to emphatically blurt my opinions in such a scenario. And
    that would probably have counter-productive results.

    > Sounds like the equivalent of people who buy a house near the airport and then start complaining
    > about the noise.

    I had the same thought. Great minds think alike :)

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  6. Patrick Lamb

    Patrick Lamb Guest

    On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 11:33:21 -0500, Kevan Smith <[email protected]/\/\> wrote:

    >On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 15:45:55 GMT, cyclist101 <[email protected]> from Road Runner - Texas wrote:
    >
    >>Neighborhoods should be free to determine their own destiny. They have property values to
    >>protect. They live there. Why should they be subjected to intrusions or mandates from others who
    >>don't live there?
    >
    >Streets are usually public. If they want private roads, they can pay for them on their own. But I
    >don't think they'll be wanting to buy a highway, even if they were allowed.

    I know of one exception, the former main street through Linville, N.C. Wealthy, mostly summer,
    residents didn't want all the riff-raff riding through their town, so they bought land for a bypass
    and built the highway. Much nicer road than the old one, although less convenient...

    Pat
     
  7. Chris B .

    Chris B . Guest

    On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 17:49:36 GMT, Brian Huntley <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Here in Toronto, we've recently had a 'win' in this department. City council was wise enough to
    >avoid an attempt to overturn a key component of the official bicycle plan - a bike lane on Dundas
    >Street East.

    I don't know who 'we' is, I think this is terrible news. I consider Dundas St. the best East-West
    thoroughfare south of the Danforth.

    >One unusual sounding part of the debate was that it was the residents and business community along
    >the street that wanted the bike lane - which will reduce the 4 lane street into two car lanes plus
    >two bike lanes and parking. I believe the parking will be all day, rather than only available
    >outside of rush hours, hence the business' support.

    Ah yes, yet another Toronto bike lane placed in the door zone. For safety! Almost every bike lane in
    Toronto is like this and "Cycling Advocates" petition for more of them!

    The amazing thing is that the curb lane along Dundas East is rather narrow. I can't imagine that
    there would be space for even the door zone design unless the street is widened.

    Even more strange to me is this talk about the businesses (who would be supporting the parking
    rather than the bike lane) as when I ride on Dundas East it is immediately obvious that there are
    proportionally few businesses along Dundas St. once you get away from Broadview St (Chinatown).

    >The Toronto Star opposed the bike lane, but admits the traffic flow is currently at 70 kph (~45
    >mph) despite being posted at 40 kph (25 mph.) They opine the traffic may return to near-legal
    >speeds once the bike lanes are in place.

    They can't be serious. This is why door-zone bike lanes should be implemented?

    >The attempted derailing of the plan would have had further reaching implications as well, as it
    >would have made all such proposals go to the city works committee, rather than the community
    >councils that may approve them now. This would have stopped all of this years changes, and
    >saddlebagged all future ones with an extra layer of bureaucracy.

    I am now, and for a while have been of the opinion that "Cycling Advocates", at least those in
    Toronto, are the greatest danger to those who are capable of and who actually want to just go ride
    their bikes on the street.

    --

    Chris Bird
     
  8. Chalo

    Chalo Guest

    [email protected] (Claire Petersky) wrote:

    (Paraphrasing Seattle-area suburban crackers)
    > In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using the road for any other
    > purpose other than to drive to their lakeside or lake view home. And the operative word here is
    > *hate* -- the level of emotional venom was bracing.

    The Eastside is lost, Claire. There really isn't anything there worth trying to improve. That area
    suffers the characteristic blight of many suburbs; it's an anti-community of people who chose their
    place of residence based on what they were trying to avoid, rather than on an environment they
    wanted to be a part of. It's a living testament to how fear, greed, arrogance and hate are
    antithetical to right action.

    Move into town; you'll recognize a lot more rational human beings around you.

    Chalo Colina
     
  9. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Jym Dyer <[email protected]> writes:
    >> In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using the road for any other
    >> purpose other than to drive to their lakeside or lake view home.
    >
    > =v= The word "impede" derives from putting shackles on feet. Similarly, the word "expedite"
    > derives from freeing the feet.

    But a pediatrician isn't a foot doctor :)

    > Those driving that road are shackled to their polluting beasts and all that entails, and are
    > insane with rage over those who are free.

    Naw, they're just scared they'll lose sumpthin'. They just need to be tactfully/tactically
    informed/convinced of what they'd gain.

    And the community stands to gain much, if they'd just open their eyes & minds. A well-implemented
    presentation of the proposals oughta fix that. If it doesn't, maybe the City should just narrow the
    road just wide enough for two oncoming bicycles to safely pass each other? Hardpack in lieu of
    asphalt or concrete pavement would be more envrio-friendly.

    OTOH, you're right -- drivers can be nutz.

    I wonder if there are any Native land claims on this area.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
  10. Misnomer

    Misnomer Guest

    Goodness... after reading all the followups I wonder if the people living there ever experienced the
    "joy" of riding a bike. From feeling the wind in your hair to the esteem of getting up that hill
    previously unsurmountable, or just that sweet lazyness of coasting down the otherside...

    Sad...

    Sending positive thoughts and prayers for your fight.

    take care Liz

    Hey! Look what [email protected] (Claire Petersky) wrote :

    snipped

    >The prospect of this level of negative emotional energy that I am going to provoke is scary for me.
    >I will need to draw on my meditation training to keep myself logical, focused, and at the same
    >time, compassionate and open-hearted.
    >
    >Pray for me, friends, pray for me.
    >
    >Warm Regards,
    >
    >Claire Petersky ([email protected])
     
  11. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected] (Claire Petersky) writes:
    >
    > > But this is the City paying for all this free food (and for people who could well afford to
    > > pay for
    > > it), so you can't demand too much.
    >
    > Can't argue about free growlies. But I can't help being reminded of the Simpsons episode where
    > Homer is lured into Perdition by the aroma of BBQ, only to be inevitably disappointed:
    >
    > "Aw, they're out of hot dogs.
    >
    > And the coleslaw has pineapple in it!
    >
    > Aghhh!! /German/ potato salad!"

    Too bad Homer didn't know that German potato salad is God's potato salad!
    Mmmmm...bacon.
    --
    Trudi "And, with that cryptic comment, I'm going to bed." --Mike, Mystery Science Theater 3000
    ____
    Say NO to secret judging and corruption in skating -- support SkateFAIR! http://www.skatefair.org
     
  12. Mike Kruger

    Mike Kruger Guest

    "Kevan Smith" <[email protected]/\/\> wrote in message
    >
    > >I noticed it was the few cyclists there who were trying to get more than their allotted share of
    > >one weinie.
    >
    > I don't even think about eating hot dogs unless I can have at least three.
    One
    > per person? Sheesh. That's just teasing.

    Our local club has an annual "hot dog ride", which involves rest stops at SuperDawg, Mustard's Last
    Stand, and similar places. I think there's a prize for the most hot dogs eaten. Sounds like just
    your type of social ride.
     
  13. Mike Kruger

    Mike Kruger Guest

    "Claire Petersky" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > In sum: we hate bicyclists. We hate pedestrians. We hate anyone using the road for any other
    > purpose other than to drive to their lakeside or lake view home.

    Sure. They don't want anybody other than the current property owners to use their precious road.

    This would be OK if they never wanted to use roads, swimming pools, libraries, schools, shops,
    garbage dumps, sewage treatment plants, or places of employment that might be located
    somewhere else.

    This attitude is extremely common in upper income areas, where it can be indulged.

    A minor correction, though. There's no "We" -- they often don't like each other much, either. For
    example, either their neighbors are assholes who make too much noise, or their neighbors are
    assholes who call the police if they play music on the patio above a whisper.
     
  14. >A minor correction, though. There's no "We" -- they often don't like each other much, either.

    Sounds by the lake.

    >For example, either their neighbors are assholes who make too much noise, or their neighbors are
    >assholes who call the police if they play music on the patio above a whisper.

    Well, they aren't here to take objection.

    I know what my strategy would be, Claire doesn't need any guidance, and I'm afraid the people in
    question are going to have to deal with their driveways.

    As Kevan says the public right of way trumps private interest in this case.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
     
  15. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 01:40:38 GMT, "Mike Kruger" <[email protected]> from
    [email protected] wrote:

    >"Kevan Smith" <[email protected]/\/\> wrote in message
    >>
    >> >I noticed it was the few cyclists there who were trying to get more than their allotted share of
    >> >one weinie.
    >>
    >> I don't even think about eating hot dogs unless I can have at least three.
    >One
    >> per person? Sheesh. That's just teasing.
    >
    >Our local club has an annual "hot dog ride", which involves rest stops at SuperDawg, Mustard's Last
    >Stand, and similar places. I think there's a prize for the most hot dogs eaten. Sounds like just
    >your type of social ride.

    Where and when is it? I'll go into training today. Do they have one for donuts, too? I think I can
    sweep all your club trophies.

    --
    http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace What I want to find out is -- do parrots know
    much about Astro-Turf?
    10:02:29 PM 27 July 2003
     
  16. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Kevan Smith wrote:

    >>Our local club has an annual "hot dog ride", which involves rest stops at SuperDawg, Mustard's
    >>Last Stand, and similar places. I think there's a prize for the most hot dogs eaten. Sounds like
    >>just your type of social ride.
    >
    >
    > Where and when is it? I'll go into training today. Do they have one for donuts, too? I think I can
    > sweep all your club trophies.

    We had the latter on our ride schedule at the Jersey Shore Touring Society club. It was the
    "Freedman's to Freedman's to Freedman's ... Ride" with an award to the participant who consumed the
    most donuts at the 7(?) Freedman's Bakeries along the way.
     
  17. Pete

    Pete Guest

    "Chris B." <[email protected]> wrote

    > Ah yes, yet another Toronto bike lane placed in the door zone. For safety! Almost every bike lane
    > in Toronto is like this and "Cycling Advocates" petition for more of them!

    There are far more ways of doing bike lanes wrong, than doing them right. And the engineers seem to
    be hellbent on finding every oneof thse wrong ways.

    Pete
     
  18. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (Trudi Marrapodi) writes:

    > Too bad Homer didn't know that German potato salad is God's potato salad!
    > Mmmmm...bacon.

    Sounds better than what I've seen passed off as German potato salad -- basically, cold potatoes
    soused a little with vinegar. But does God really eat bacon? And what does She have to say about
    coleslaw with pineapple in it?

    I'd love to fire up the barbecue right now, myself -- just for an excuse to make a shrimp & avacado
    aspic to go with it, deliciously presented with an underlay of iceberg lettuce leaves and mayo. Jerk
    chicken, and portobello mushroom ka-bobs. And two kinds of potato salad ;-) And coleslaw sans
    pineapple (or raisins, for that matter.) And watermelon. Maybe even a casaba. And all kinds of
    pickles and cold cuts, and a couple of cheeses.

    Sometimes I wish I could cater group rides, just to give a break to those groups who usually just
    get hot dogs and PBJ samwidges. Maybe a cargo pedicab with some sort of alt-energy refrigeration
    unit could make a viable chuckwagon.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
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  19. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jul 2003 03:32:13 GMT, Peter <[email protected]> from self wrote:

    >Kevan Smith wrote:
    >
    >>>Our local club has an annual "hot dog ride", which involves rest stops at SuperDawg, Mustard's
    >>>Last Stand, and similar places. I think there's a prize for the most hot dogs eaten. Sounds like
    >>>just your type of social ride.
    >>
    >>
    >> Where and when is it? I'll go into training today. Do they have one for donuts, too? I think I
    >> can sweep all your club trophies.
    >
    >We had the latter on our ride schedule at the Jersey Shore Touring Society club. It was the
    >"Freedman's to Freedman's to Freedman's ... Ride" with an award to the participant who consumed the
    >most donuts at the 7(?) Freedman's Bakeries along the way.

    I'll have to look into sponsorship, because this would be an expensive race for
    me.

    --
    http://home.sport.rr.com/cuthulu/ human rights = peace YOW!! I'm in a very clever and adorable
    INSANE ASYLUM!!
    11:11:30 PM 27 July 2003
     
  20. Tom Keats

    Tom Keats Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, "Pete" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > "Chris B." <[email protected]> wrote
    >
    >> Ah yes, yet another Toronto bike lane placed in the door zone. For safety! Almost every bike lane
    >> in Toronto is like this and "Cycling Advocates" petition for more of them!
    >
    > There are far more ways of doing bike lanes wrong, than doing them right. And the engineers seem
    > to be hellbent on finding every oneof thse wrong ways.

    I don't think it's so much a matter of what city engineers want, as it is city council trying to
    effect compromises to placate diverse special interests (especially including drivers), while still
    going ahead with some sort of plan and being seen to be "doing something about it".

    It may well have been that the engineers proposed a wonderful plan, before politicians diluted and
    perverted it. That's how it seems to go around here, anyways. That's why we've gotta aim high when
    we lobby for cycling improvements. The lower we aim, the less we ultimately get.

    cheers, Tom

    --
    -- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden. I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn
    [point] bc [point] ca
     
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