Unchanged avg. speed with lower HR, am I fit, relaxed, or lazy

[Mish]

Thanks for all the hints on increasing my hill climbing power.

Over the last month my avg. speed has stayed the same during rides of 30 to 50 miles and my heart rate average has dropped 10 bpm.
I ride about the same with pushing hills and the occasional dog chase sprint.

Am I in better shape and lazy?
Am I more relaxed and breathing better?

Where should I focus my training to climb better and do a relatively fast century?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Because I'm in a little bit the same situation, I'll share with you my game plan for increasing my average speed and my climbing speed. First, I think the fact that you are maintaining the same speed over 30-50 miles at a lower HR is a natural, normal and predictable result of being more fit. If you hold HR constant, you should get gradually faster over time. If you hold speed constant, your HR should drop gradually over time. To improve your long distance (e.g., century) average speed, I think long recovery rides plus high-intensity interval rides two or more times per week will produce that result. To improve your climbing ability, I advocate climbing (if possible) long, steady-grade climbs of 2-10 miles in length at 90% of max. HR. I'm fortunate because I've got several such climbs close by (1.4, 4.8, 8.4 and 10 miles at fairly steady 6%-8% grades). I haven't worked up my courage to take on the 10 mile climb yet, but I do a climbing ride once a week on the other climbs. Initially, I was hurting and sweating bullets at 6mph and now I'm able to sustain 12-14mph. My goal is to maintain a steady 18+mph, even on the 10 miler. Then, I'll know I'm becoming reasonably fit. I've learned to like climbs because it's so easy to hit my power goals for the day.

 

[frenchyge]

Thanks for all the hints on increasing my hill climbing power.

Over the last month my avg. speed has stayed the same during rides of 30 to 50 miles and my heart rate average has dropped 10 bpm.
I ride about the same with pushing hills and the occasional dog chase sprint.

Am I in better shape and lazy?
Am I more relaxed and breathing better?

Where should I focus my training to climb better and do a relatively fast century?

Assuming your HR info is averaged over a few rides and not just a one-time occurrence, then you're in better shape and lazy.

Get back out there and get those 10 beats back and then tell us what your average speed has done!

To get that fast century start hammering those 30 milers, and work the 50 milers up to some 60, 70, 80 milers. The best tip is to find some other riders that are about your same fitness and start doing some fast paceline work with them. That'll prep you to do the same on your century ride.

 

[squidwranglr]

I advocate climbing (if possible) long, steady-grade climbs of 2-10 miles in length at 90% of max. HR. I'm fortunate because I've got several such climbs close by (1.4, 4.8, 8.4 and 10 miles at fairly steady 6%-8% grades). I haven't worked up my courage to take on the 10 mile climb yet, but I do a climbing ride once a week on the other climbs. Initially, I was hurting and sweating bullets at 6mph and now I'm able to sustain 12-14mph. My goal is to maintain a steady 18+mph, even on the 10 miler.

I don't know exactly how much you weigh or how tall you are, but sustaining 13 mph on a 7% grade would require a power output of around 390 W. At that speed, a 5 mile climb would take just shy of half an hour - not a short amount of time to put out that kind of power by any means. Impressive. 18 mph would be 610 W, which I would be willing to put forth would be impossible for "us forum browsing mere mortals" for anything approaching 10 miles.

Berend

 

[RapDaddyo]

I don't know exactly how much you weigh or how tall you are, but sustaining 13 mph on a 7% grade would require a power output of around 390 W. At that speed, a 5 mile climb would take just shy of half an hour - not a short amount of time to put out that kind of power by any means. Impressive. 18 mph would be 610 W, which I would be willing to put forth would be impossible for "us forum browsing mere mortals" for anything approaching 10 miles.

Berend

I'd say you're pretty close on the power -- probably closer to 375w. I'm 6'1" and weigh 178. We're about 2K' above sea level, if that matters. I'm just guessing on the 18mph. Sometimes I'll accelerate to a speed that I can now hold for only maybe 1 minute, to get an idea of what my goal should be when I'm truly fit. I may not ever be able to average 18mph on the 10 mile climb, but it's a good target. We didn't have power meters when I used to race, so I don't know what my climbing power potential is. I did enjoy the climbs, the longer the better. I didn't post my numbers to brag, but rather to show you the dramatic results I have obtained in only a few months by including long, steady climbs in my weekly rides. I find it so much easier to hit my power numbers on a climb than on the flat.

 

[squidwranglr]

I didn't post my numbers to brag, but rather to show you the dramatic results I have obtained in only a few months by including long, steady climbs in my weekly rides.

I didn't take your post as bragging at all - I've followed the discussions on the power forum and I know that's not your style. All that I was trying to do was to introduce an analytically derived reality check on the upper limits of what one can expect to reach.

I'd say you're pretty close on the power -- probably closer to 375w. I'm 6'1" and weigh 178. We're about 2K' above sea level, if that matters.

Yeah, air density does matter, but it's not a siginificant effect. You are taller and heavier than what my calculations assumed, though. The revised number would be around 450 W for climbing 7% grade at 13 mph. That's butt-load of power (that's the technical term I believe). You may be over-estimating the average grade a little bit (I'm assuming you have a cycling computer, so the average speed should be pretty accurate).

I'm just guessing on the 18mph. Sometimes I'll accelerate to a speed that I can now hold for only maybe 1 minute, to get an idea of what my goal should be when I'm truly fit.

Folks like Mr. Coggan who comment on the power forums are far more knowledgable than myself, but from what I understand there is a very sharp exponential drop off in the sustainable power output for 10 second, 30 second, 1 and 5 minute durations before the values start to asymptote with a shallower slope. I don't think trying to judge an all-out 1 minute effort to be representitive of where you want to be with a half-hour effort some number of months down the road is advisable (or realistic).

I find it so much easier to hit my power numbers on a climb than on the flat.

Yeah, I think that's a pretty well-documented and discussed phenomenon. There's even a term for it, but it's escaping me at the moment.

Take care,

Berend

 

[RapDaddyo]

Folks like Mr. Coggan who comment on the power forums are far more knowledgable than myself, but from what I understand there is a very sharp exponential drop off in the sustainable power output for 10 second, 30 second, 1 and 5 minute durations before the values start to asymptote with a shallower slope. I don't think trying to judge an all-out 1 minute effort to be representitive of where you want to be with a half-hour effort some number of months down the road is advisable (or realistic).

I agree, and I've seen the graphs. I'm just so early in my training after my layoff that I don't have a good sense yet of where I will level off. I even find it pretty worthless to get benchmarks such as 20MP, 40MP and MAP at this point in time because my training curve is still steep. I'm just training now with two basic training levels: recovery <200w; intervals >300w. Hopefully, I can develop a power/duration curve in a month or so that will last more than a week. When I power up for a minute or so on a hill, I'm just estimating based on RPE whether I think I could hold the pace for 1/2 hour or so after a few more months of training. It's not a maxed out effort that would be plotted on the power/duration curve. We'll see what happens. I am obviously very curious to see where I will level off. At the moment, I don't care much since I don't plan to race until next Spring. If I have my druthers, I will end up being able to ride at race-pace in my age group at no more than ~65% of my 20K TT power. That'll give me lots of options for breaks, bridges, climbs and sprints.
Paul

 

[Mish]

Assuming your HR info is averaged over a few rides and not just a one-time occurrence, then you're in better shape and lazy.

Get back out there and get those 10 beats back and then tell us what your average speed has done!

To get that fast century start hammering those 30 milers, and work the 50 milers up to some 60, 70, 80 milers. The best tip is to find some other riders that are about your same fitness and start doing some fast paceline work with them. That'll prep you to do the same on your century ride.

I just finished a 46 mile ride and focused on a HR of 150 which is 10 bpm over my average on the same ride.
(I'm 42 6'0" and 165lbs)
My average speed jumped a full MPH to 18.1.
I needed to keep my cadence near 90 rpm and actually felt better than during most rides at that distance.

Thanks for the motivation to get my lazy self moving.

Now, do I focus on speed or HR?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Now, do I focus on speed or HR?

Personally, I don't think you should ever focus on speed for training rides. Training rides have one of two purposes: recovery or intervals. Obviously, speed doesn't matter in a recovery ride. Granted, you will go faster and faster at a recovery intensity as you become more fit. But, speed isn't an objective. For intervals, your objectives are defined in terms of time at watts or time at HR, with recovery periods defined in the same terms. Again, speed isn't a training objective but naturally increases as you become more fit. Bottom line, speed is irrelevant for training rides. It just makes you feel good or bad about your ride, but for the wrong reasons.

 

[frenchyge]

I just finished a 46 mile ride and focused on a HR of 150 which is 10 bpm over my average on the same ride.
(I'm 42 6'0" and 165lbs)
My average speed jumped a full MPH to 18.1.
I needed to keep my cadence near 90 rpm and actually felt better than during most rides at that distance.

Thanks for the motivation to get my lazy self moving.

Now, do I focus on speed or HR?

Nice!

I agree with Rap that you shouldn't focus on speed, it is a by-product of your training rather than an objective. Stick with HR to ensure you're training at the correct intensities (interval or recovery, etc.) even under varying conditions (hills, wind, etc.) and routes. Don't train *easier* as you get more fit, use HR to help you keep the intensity steady from week to week and watch the speeds climb over time. That's your reward for all the training. Good luck.