Unconstitutional requirement for a marriage license?

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by tock, Jan 30, 2004.

  1. tock

    tock Guest

    Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the City of
    Dallas . . . down at the bottom, it says:
    ================================

    There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented at
    the time of application.

    If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    marriage license expires.

    ==============================

    Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for that matter) require a
    "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage license? It would be one thing
    if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the Peace) to make things
    official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final until a religious group
    says it is. It seems to me that it is unconstitutional for the City of Dallas to involve religion in
    validating a government document in this way . . .

    What do y'all think?

    --Tock

    Text of the City of Dallas' marriage requirement below:

    From http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-serv/county-clerk/marriage-license. html#1

    Requirements A man and a woman desiring to enter into a ceremonial marriage must obtain a marriage
    license from the county clerk of any county of this state.

    Eligibility

    Applicants should be 18 years or older with valid identification. Applicants under the age of 18
    must have a certified copy of their birth certificate.

    Applicants under the age of 18, but older than 14 years can apply for a marriage license with
    parental consent or permission of a judge, or documents establishing that a prior marriage has been
    dissolved.

    Applicant under the age of 14 are required to have both parents consents and a court order giving
    permission to marry.

    Blood test or health certificates are not required to obtain a license.

    A license will be issued to persons who may be delinquent for payment of court-ordered
    child support.

    There is a 30-day waiting period after a divorce is granted within this state. An applicant may
    apply for a license within the 30 days if the court issues a waiver.

    Acquiring a License

    A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost is $41.00 in cash.

    If an applicant is unable to appear personally, any adult or the other applicant may apply on
    behalf of the absent applicant. The proper paper work must be completed prior to applying.
    Proper paper work including the absent applicant's identification and age is required. If one
    party is incarcerated, this office must send out and receive information directly from the
    incarcerated person.

    If the absent applicant is under 18 years of age, proof of parental consent, or judicial permission,
    or proof of the dissolution of a previous marriage must be provided.

    A valid form of photo identification, such as a driver's license, U.S. passport, certified copy of a
    birth certificate, or military identification is required.

    Time Limitations

    There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented at
    the time of application.

    If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    marriage license expires.

    You can apply for a marriage license in downtown Dallas at the Records Building, 1st Floor, 509 Main
    Street, Suite 120 (8:00am-4:00pm, Monday through Friday) 214-653-7559 or 214-653-7131. You can apply
    in East Dallas at the East Dallas Government Center, 3443 St. Francis Ave. (call for office hours)
    214-321-3182. You can also apply at the North Dallas Government Center, 10056 Marsh Lane, Suite 137,
    Dallas (call for office hours) 214-904-3032. Justice of the Peace, 7201 S. Polk, Dallas, (972) 228-
    0280 (Call for office hours); Justice of the Peace, 1411 W. Beltline Road, Richardson, (972) 231-
    1439 (Call for office hours)
     
    Tags:


  2. Lars Eighner

    Lars Eighner Guest

    In our last episode, <[email protected]>, the lovely and talented
    <[email protected]>

    > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for that matter) require a
    > "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage license? It would be one
    > thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the Peace) to make
    > things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final until a
    > religious group says it is. It seems to me that it is unconstitutional for the City of Dallas to
    > involve religion in validating a government document in this way . . .

    > What do y'all think?

    Where does it say the marriage ceremony has to be religious? JPs and other magistrates can - and
    very often do - perform perform perfectly secular ceremonies.

    --
    Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- [email protected] http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "With a heavy dose of
    fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects, I think we can convince these people that we are
    here to help them" -- Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman
     
  3. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the City
    of
    > Dallas . . . down at the bottom, it says:
    > ================================
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license
    prior
    > to the ceremony. If either party is active military the 72-hour is waived
    if
    > the military identification is presented at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after
    the
    > license is issued, the marriage license expires.
    >
    > ==============================
    >
    > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for that matter) require a
    > "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage license? It would be one
    > thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the Peace) to make
    > things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final until a
    > religious group says it is.

    Where does it say anything about a religious group?

    It seems to me
    > that it is unconstitutional for the City of Dallas to involve religion in validating a government
    > document in this way . . .
    >
    > What do y'all think?
    >
    > --Tock
    >
    > Text of the City of Dallas' marriage requirement below:
    >
    > From
    >
    http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-serv/county-clerk/marriage-license.
    > html#1
    >
    > Requirements A man and a woman desiring to enter into a ceremonial marriage must obtain
    a
    > marriage license from the county clerk of any county of this state.
    >
    > Eligibility
    >
    > Applicants should be 18 years or older with valid identification.
    Applicants
    > under the age of 18 must have a certified copy of their birth certificate.
    >
    > Applicants under the age of 18, but older than 14 years can apply for a marriage license with
    > parental consent or permission of a judge, or documents establishing that a prior marriage has
    > been dissolved.
    >
    > Applicant under the age of 14 are required to have both parents consents
    and
    > a court order giving permission to marry.
    >
    > Blood test or health certificates are not required to obtain a license.
    >
    > A license will be issued to persons who may be delinquent for payment of court-ordered child
    > support.
    >
    > There is a 30-day waiting period after a divorce is granted within this state. An applicant may
    > apply for a license within the 30 days if the
    court
    > issues a waiver.
    >
    > Acquiring a License
    >
    > A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost
    is
    > $41.00 in cash.
    >
    > If an applicant is unable to appear personally, any adult or the other applicant may apply on
    > behalf of the absent applicant. The proper paper
    work
    > must be completed prior to applying. Proper paper work including the
    absent
    > applicant's identification and age is required. If one party is incarcerated, this office must
    > send out and receive information directly from the incarcerated person.
    >
    > If the absent applicant is under 18 years of age, proof of parental
    consent,
    > or judicial permission, or proof of the dissolution of a previous marriage must be provided.
    >
    > A valid form of photo identification, such as a driver's license, U.S. passport, certified copy of
    > a birth certificate, or military
    identification
    > is required.
    >
    > Time Limitations
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license
    prior
    > to the ceremony. If either party is active military the 72-hour is waived
    if
    > the military identification is presented at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after
    the
    > license is issued, the marriage license expires.
    >
    > You can apply for a marriage license in downtown Dallas at the Records Building, 1st Floor, 509
    > Main Street, Suite 120 (8:00am-4:00pm, Monday through Friday) 214-653-7559 or 214-653-7131. You
    > can apply in East Dallas at the East Dallas Government Center, 3443 St. Francis Ave. (call for
    office
    > hours) 214-321-3182. You can also apply at the North Dallas Government Center, 10056 Marsh Lane,
    > Suite 137, Dallas (call for office hours) 214-904-3032. Justice of the Peace, 7201 S. Polk,
    > Dallas, (972) 228-0280 (Call for office hours); Justice of the Peace, 1411 W. Beltline Road,
    > Richardson, (972) 231-1439 (Call for office hours)
    >
    >
     
  4. Eric Bohlman

    Eric Bohlman Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the City of Dallas . . . down at
    > the bottom, it says:
    > ================================
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    > either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented
    > at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    > marriage license expires.
    >
    > ==============================
    >
    > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for that matter) require a
    > "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage license? It would be one
    > thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the Peace) to make
    > things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final until a
    > religious group says it is. It seems to me that it is unconstitutional for the City of Dallas to
    > involve religion in validating a government document in this way . . .
    >
    > What do y'all think?

    I don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you posted. Marriage in the
    contemporary Western world is generally a two-step process: first you get a license to marry, and
    then you marry. The latter step has to be formally "performed" and a reasonably large class of
    persons, including but my no means limited to clergymen (just a convenience to the people who want a
    religious recognition of marriage to temporally coincide with a civil recognition of marriage) are
    authorized to perform that step.

    I really don't see anything problematic about a 72-hour waiting period between the issuance of a
    license to marry and the actual marriage. It would preclude antics of the sort that one Ms. Spears
    engaged in recently. I mean, honestly, if you want to marry today but don't still want to marry
    three days from now, you really shouldn't marry. And such people are the only ones excluded by those
    regulations. And the same thing applies to the license expiring in 30 days. I really don't see a
    problem here.
     
  5. tock

    tock Guest

    "Lars Eighner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In our last episode, <[email protected]>, the lovely and talented
    > <[email protected]>

    >
    > > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency
    for
    > > that matter) require a "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage
    > > license? It would be one thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or
    > > Justice of the
    Peace)
    > > to make things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final
    > > until a religious group says it is. It seems to
    me
    > > that it is unconstitutional for the City of Dallas to involve religion
    in
    > > validating a government document in this way . . .
    >
    > > What do y'all think?
    >
    > Where does it say the marriage ceremony has to be religious? JPs and other magistrates can - and
    > very often do - perform perform perfectly secular ceremonies.

    The issue, IMHO, is that the government empowers a clergyman/religious ritual to validate a
    government document . . . at all. Really and truly, preachers have no legitimate role in the
    government's business of recognizing any sort of legal relationship. I could see how the state could
    issue the marriage license, then require them to swear something legal-ish in front of a JP, but why
    should a common preacher be empowered by the gov't to serve this purpose? IMHO, it's
    unconstitutional as unconstitutional can be. No way should the state empower a clergyman to make an
    application for a government license valid. Hah . . . You know, if someone was to make an issue of
    this and run it through the courts, it could invalidate millions of marriages that were validated by
    clergymen, and technically make their children "bastards" lol . . . It would also require states to
    make all joinings between two people legal (I suppose it could be called either a "Civil Union" or a
    "marriage") with only civil proceedures . . . and put the church in its rightful place. Of course,
    if people wanted to have a religious ritual after the government paperwork was done, they still
    could, no problem there. I would expect it would still be a popular option. But again, there's no
    way whether or not a religious ritual was performed should concern the secular government. Whatcha
    think about that? --Tock
     
  6. tock

    tock Guest

    "Light Templar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the City
    > of
    > > Dallas . . . down at the bottom, it says:
    > > ================================
    > >
    > > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license
    > prior
    > > to the ceremony. If either party is active military the 72-hour is
    waived
    > if
    > > the military identification is presented at the time of application.
    > >
    > > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after
    > the
    > > license is issued, the marriage license expires.
    > >
    > > ==============================
    > >
    > > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency
    for
    > > that matter) require a "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage
    > > license? It would be one thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or
    > > Justice of the
    Peace)
    > > to make things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final
    > > until a religious group says it is.
    >
    > Where does it say anything about a religious group?
    >

    Where it says, "If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license
    is issued, the marriage license expires." Guess who performs marriage ceremonies? --Tock
     
  7. tock

    tock Guest

    "Eric Bohlman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >

    > > What do y'all think?
    >
    > I don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you posted. Marriage in the
    > contemporary Western world is generally a
    two-step
    > process: first you get a license to marry, and then you marry. The latter step has to be formally
    > "performed" and a reasonably large class of persons, including but my no means limited to
    > clergymen (just a
    convenience
    > to the people who want a religious recognition of marriage to temporally coincide with a civil
    > recognition of marriage) are authorized to perform that step.

    Yah, they are authorized . . . but why should the government authorize clergymen and no one else to
    do this? Heck, notary publics stamp all sorts of documents, but they can't validate a marriage
    license. IMHO, the government cannot accept a document's validation only because its validator
    happened to be a member of the clergy.

    >
    > I really don't see anything problematic about a 72-hour waiting period between the issuance of a
    > license to marry and the actual marriage. It would preclude antics of the sort that one Ms. Spears
    > engaged in recently. I mean, honestly, if you want to marry today but don't still want to marry
    > three days from now, you really shouldn't marry. And such people are the only ones excluded by
    > those regulations. And the same thing applies to
    the
    > license expiring in 30 days. I really don't see a problem here.

    Here in Dallas, if you're a member of the military, you can get around the waiting period. But while
    I personally think the waiting period is a good idea, the Libertarian in me says it's not up to the
    gov't to decide what's a good idea for people who want to get married. But that's another ball of
    wax I'll melt at another time . . . one mess at a time, as my dear sweet departed grandmother used
    to say . . . --Tock
     
  8. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Light Templar" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > >
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > > Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the
    City
    > > of
    > > > Dallas . . . down at the bottom, it says:
    > > > ================================
    > > >
    > > > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license
    > > prior
    > > > to the ceremony. If either party is active military the 72-hour is
    > waived
    > > if
    > > > the military identification is presented at the time of application.
    > > >
    > > > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day
    after
    > > the
    > > > license is issued, the marriage license expires.
    > > >
    > > > ==============================
    > > >
    > > > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency
    > for
    > > > that matter) require a "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage
    > > > license? It would be one thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or
    > > > Justice of the
    > Peace)
    > > > to make things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final
    > > > until a religious group says it is.
    > >
    > > Where does it say anything about a religious group?
    > >
    >
    > Where it says, "If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the
    > license is issued, the marriage license expires." Guess who performs marriage ceremonies? --Tock

    Well, let's see.... Justice of the Peace, a Judge, a Ship's Captain out to sea... Am I
    getting warm yet?

    Get it, even a little?
     
  9. <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Eric Bohlman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    > >
    >
    >
    > > > What do y'all think?
    > >
    > > I don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you posted. Marriage in the
    > > contemporary Western world is generally a
    > two-step
    > > process: first you get a license to marry, and then you marry. The
    latter
    > > step has to be formally "performed" and a reasonably large class of persons, including but my no
    > > means limited to clergymen (just a
    > convenience
    > > to the people who want a religious recognition of marriage to temporally coincide with a civil
    > > recognition of marriage) are authorized to perform that step.
    >
    > Yah, they are authorized . . . but why should the government authorize clergymen and no one else
    > to do this? Heck, notary publics stamp all
    sorts
    > of documents, but they can't validate a marriage license.

    He can in my town. One of our Notary Publics is also the Justice of the Peace.

    IMHO, the
    > government cannot accept a document's validation only because its
    validator
    > happened to be a member of the clergy.
    >
    >
    > >
    > > I really don't see anything problematic about a 72-hour waiting period between the issuance of a
    > > license to marry and the actual marriage. It would preclude antics of the sort that one Ms.
    > > Spears engaged in
    recently.
    > > I mean, honestly, if you want to marry today but don't still want to
    marry
    > > three days from now, you really shouldn't marry. And such people are
    the
    > > only ones excluded by those regulations. And the same thing applies to
    > the
    > > license expiring in 30 days. I really don't see a problem here.
    >
    > Here in Dallas, if you're a member of the military, you can get around the waiting period. But
    > while I personally think the waiting period is a
    good
    > idea, the Libertarian in me says it's not up to the gov't to decide what's
    a
    > good idea for people who want to get married. But that's another ball of wax I'll melt at another
    > time . . . one mess at a time, as my dear sweet departed grandmother used to say . . . --Tock
     
  10. In article <[email protected]>, Lars Eighner
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    -In our last episode, -<[email protected]>, -the lovely and talented
    <[email protected]>

    - -> Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for -> that matter)
    require a "marriage ceremony" beyond the official -> governmental-issued marriage license? It would
    be one thing if they -> required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the Peace)
    -> to make things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says -> things are not final
    until a religious group says it is. It seems to me -> that it is unconstitutional for the City of
    Dallas to involve religion in -> validating a government document in this way . . . - -> What do
    y'all think? - -Where does it say the marriage ceremony has to be religious? JPs -and other
    magistrates can - and very often do - perform perform -perfectly secular ceremonies.

    But why should any "ceremone" be required?

    There is no requirement for a "divorce ceremony", is there?

    (And BTW, such ceremonies do exist!!) - -
    ---
    -Lars Eighner -finger for geek code- [email protected] http://www.io.com/~eighner/
    - "With a heavy dose of fear and violence, and a lot of money for projects,
    - I think we can convince these people that we are here to help them"
    - -- Lt. Col. Nathan Sassaman

    Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

    The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

    My Yahoo Group http://Ninure.tk

    My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net - Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community
    Churches http://www.MCCchurch.org

    To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
     
  11. <[email protected]> wrote:
    >"Eric Bohlman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]...
    >> <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >> > What do y'all think?
    >>
    >> I don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you posted. Marriage in the
    >> contemporary Western world is generally a
    >two-step
    >> process: first you get a license to marry, and then you marry. The latter step has to be formally
    >> "performed" and a reasonably large class of persons, including but my no means limited to
    >> clergymen (just a
    >convenience
    >> to the people who want a religious recognition of marriage to temporally coincide with a civil
    >> recognition of marriage) are authorized to perform that step.
    >
    >Yah, they are authorized . . . but why should the government authorize clergymen and no one else
    >to do this?

    They don't.

    >Heck, notary publics stamp all sorts of documents, but they can't validate a marriage license.

    Notary publics do not validate anything except signatures.

    >IMHO, the government cannot accept a document's validation only because its validator happened to
    >be a member of the clergy.

    In every jurisdiction there are civil alternatives for performance of a marriage ceremony.

    Here are some non-religious alternatives in Dallas: http://www.dallascounty.org/html/departments/jp_courts/3-
    1/weddings.html http://phonebook.superpages.com/yellowpages/C-Justices+Of+The+Peace/S-TX/T-Dallas/
    http://dfwx.com/officiant.html

    lojbab
    --
    lojbab [email protected] Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own;
    I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
     
  12. Eric Bohlman

    Eric Bohlman Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in
    news:eek:[email protected]:

    > The issue, IMHO, is that the government empowers a clergyman/religious ritual to validate a
    > government document . . . at all. Really and truly, preachers have no legitimate role in the
    > government's business of recognizing any sort of legal relationship. I could see how the state
    > could issue the marriage license, then require them to swear something legal-ish in front of a JP,
    > but why should a common preacher be empowered by the gov't to serve this purpose? IMHO, it's
    > unconstitutional as unconstitutional can be. No way should the state empower a clergyman to make
    > an application for a government license valid.

    As long as the clergymen are subject to the same legal requirements as anybody else who's empowered
    to solemnize a marriage, I don't see any problems.

    > Hah . . . You know, if someone was to make an issue of this and run it through the courts, it
    > could invalidate millions of marriages that were validated by clergymen, and technically make
    > their children "bastards" lol . . . It would also require states to make all joinings between two
    > people legal (I suppose it could be called either a "Civil Union" or a "marriage") with only civil
    > proceedures . . . and put the church in its rightful place. Of course, if people wanted to have a
    > religious ritual after the government paperwork was done, they still could, no problem there. I
    > would expect it would still be a popular option. But again, there's no way whether or not a
    > religious ritual was performed should concern the secular government. Whatcha think about that?

    It's a very popular opinion among a lot of gay men, but I think it's a purely symbolic gesture that
    would engender a lot of resentment among straight people by making them go through an extra step in
    the marriage process. I hate to use the term "political correctness" since it's so poorly defined,
    but I can't think of any other term for it. Right now a couple who wants to marry in a religious
    ceremony and a couple who want to marry without a religious ceremony have to go through exactly the
    same number of steps. Your proposal would have the former couples going through three steps while
    the latter would have two. I can see some camp value to such a proposal, but then camp is a form of
    frivolity and I don't see marriage as something frivolous.

    I'd prefer to see an expansion, rather than a restriction, of the range of people who are entitled
    to solemnize a marriage. For example, I'd like to see any official of an organization that regards
    marriage as important being able to solemnize a marriage, subject to the same requirements as
    anybody else. Ideally I'd like to see anyone able to apply for the authority to do so, probably
    subject to passing a simple test covering the legal requirements involved.
     
  13. tock

    tock Guest

    "Bob LeChevalier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >"Eric Bohlman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]...
    > >> <[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    > >> > What do y'all think?
    > >>
    > >> I don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you posted. Marriage in the
    > >> contemporary Western world is generally a
    > >two-step
    > >> process: first you get a license to marry, and then you marry. The
    latter
    > >> step has to be formally "performed" and a reasonably large class of persons, including but my
    > >> no means limited to clergymen (just a
    > >convenience
    > >> to the people who want a religious recognition of marriage to
    temporally
    > >> coincide with a civil recognition of marriage) are authorized to
    perform
    > >> that step.
    > >
    > >Yah, they are authorized . . . but why should the government authorize clergymen and no one else
    > >to do this?
    >
    > They don't.
    >
    > >Heck, notary publics stamp all sorts of documents, but they can't validate a marriage license.
    >
    > Notary publics do not validate anything except signatures.
    >
    > >IMHO, the government cannot accept a document's validation only because its
    validator
    > >happened to be a member of the clergy.
    >
    > In every jurisdiction there are civil alternatives for performance of a marriage ceremony.
    >
    > Here are some non-religious alternatives in Dallas: http://www.dallascounty.org/html/departments/jp_courts/3-
    > 1/weddings.html
    >
    http://phonebook.superpages.com/yellowpages/C-Justices+Of+The+Peace/S-TX/T-D allas/
    > http://dfwx.com/officiant.html
    >
    > lojbab
    > --
    > lojbab [email protected] Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my
    > own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban:
    > http://www.lojban.org
    ==========================

    Ya, well, my point is that the gov't has no business inviting religious leaders to share its
    authority to validate government documents. -Tock
     
  14. In article <[email protected]>, Eric Bohlman
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    -<[email protected]> wrote in -news:[email protected]: - -> Here's
    the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the -> City of Dallas . . . down at the
    bottom, it says: -> ================================ -> -> There is a 72-hour waiting period
    following the issuing of the license -> prior to the ceremony. If either party is active military
    the 72-hour -> is waived if the military identification is presented at the time of -> application.
    -> -> If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day -> after the license is
    issued, the marriage license expires. -> -> ============================== -> -> Why oh why oh why
    does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency -> for that matter) require a "marriage
    ceremony" beyond the official -> governmental-issued marriage license? It would be one thing if they
    -> required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the -> Peace) to make things
    official and final . . . BUT--here, the -> government says things are not final until a religious
    group says it -> is. It seems to me that it is unconstitutional for the City of -> Dallas to involve
    religion in validating a government document in this -> way . . . -> -> What do y'all think? - -I
    don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you -posted. Marriage in the
    contemporary Western world is generally a two-step -process: first you get a license to marry, and
    then you marry. The latter -step has to be formally "performed" and a reasonably large class of -
    persons, including but my no means limited to clergymen (just a convenience -to the people who want
    a religious recognition of marriage to temporally -coincide with a civil recognition of marriage)
    are authorized to perform -that step. - -I really don't see anything problematic about a 72-hour
    waiting period -between the issuance of a license to marry and the actual marriage. It -would
    preclude antics of the sort that one Ms. Spears engaged in recently. -I mean, honestly, if you want
    to marry today but don't still want to marry -three days from now, you really shouldn't marry. And
    such people are the -only ones excluded by those regulations. And the same thing applies to the -
    license expiring in 30 days.

    But....

    -If you get a driver's licence and choose not to drive for whatever reason, it isn't taken away
    from you.....

    I really don't see a problem here.

    What business is the state's when and how you decide to complete the process of "marriage"?

    Seriously....

    I'd like to see the reasoning behind this.

    Ninure Saunders aka Rainbow Christian http://Rainbow-Christian.tk

    The Lord is my Shepherd and He knows I'm Gay http://Ninure-Saunders.tk

    My Yahoo Group http://Ninure.tk

    My Online Diary http://www.ninure.deardiary.net - Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community
    Churches http://www.MCCchurch.org

    To send e-mail, remove nohate from address
     
  15. [email protected] (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
    >-Where does it say the marriage ceremony has to be religious? JPs -and other magistrates can - and
    >very often do - perform perform -perfectly secular ceremonies.
    >
    >But why should any "ceremone" be required?

    Because "We the people" say so. You want legal recognition for your relationship, you jump through
    the required legal hoops, whatever they be. If they aren't unconstitutional, there is no problem.

    >There is no requirement for a "divorce ceremony", is there?

    There is. A judge has to issue an order. Until he does, you aren't divorced.

    lojbab
    --
    lojbab [email protected] Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own;
    I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
     
  16. [email protected] (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
    >What business is the state's when and how you decide to complete the process of "marriage"?

    Marriage is a legal relationship recognized by the state, engendering thousands of contingent legal
    responsibilities and benefits. It is ENTIRELY the prerogative of the state to set any conditions it
    wants on that recognition, so long as they are constitutional.

    The religious state of matrimony has nothing to do with the legal relationship of marriage, unless
    the church chooses to accept the legal state as qualifying for religious recognition.

    lojbab
    --
    lojbab [email protected] Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own;
    I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org
     
  17. [email protected] wrote:

    > Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the City of Dallas . . . down at
    > the bottom, it says:
    > ================================
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    > either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented
    > at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    > marriage license expires.
    >
    > ==============================
    >
    > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for that matter) require a
    > "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage license?

    It is worse that that, in Texas, the only legal marriages are between a XY male to a XX female
    period. It does not matter however

    need not apply, they cannot legally marry in Texas if their chromosomes do not match one or the
    other box. Their fundamental right of marriage is denied, in direct violation of the fundamental
    right to marriage.

    See Litteton v. Prange TX 04-99-00010-CV

    Why is the press silent on this issue?

    Why does the press continue the one sided lie of the mythical sin

    at the time the bible was written.

    orientated person.' This was a discovery of only 150 years ago. Go to the Bible and it simply is not
    there. Often, people speak of the clear Biblical teaching about how to deal pastorally

    there were such people in the ancient world and others would have had the experience of engaging
    with them, but they were

    because they did not yet have the concept of 'exclusive

    experiences." By Dr Carnley is a Cambridge PhD, and Archbishop of Perth

    Why the silence?

    > It would be one thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the
    > Peace) to make things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final
    > until a religious group says it is. It seems to me that it is unconstitutional for the City of
    > Dallas to involve religion in validating a government document in this way . . .
    >
    > What do y'all think?
    >
    > --Tock
    >
    > Text of the City of Dallas' marriage requirement below:
    >
    > From http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-serv/county-clerk/marriage-license. html#1
    >
    > Requirements A man and a woman desiring to enter into a ceremonial marriage must obtain a marriage
    > license from the county clerk of any county of this state.
    >
    > Eligibility
    >
    > Applicants should be 18 years or older with valid identification. Applicants under the age of 18
    > must have a certified copy of their birth certificate.
    >
    > Applicants under the age of 18, but older than 14 years can apply for a marriage license with
    > parental consent or permission of a judge, or documents establishing that a prior marriage has
    > been dissolved.
    >
    > Applicant under the age of 14 are required to have both parents consents and a court order giving
    > permission to marry.
    >
    > Blood test or health certificates are not required to obtain a license.
    >
    > A license will be issued to persons who may be delinquent for payment of court-ordered child
    > support.
    >
    > There is a 30-day waiting period after a divorce is granted within this state. An applicant may
    > apply for a license within the 30 days if the court issues a waiver.
    >
    > Acquiring a License
    >
    > A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost is $41.00 in cash.
    >
    > If an applicant is unable to appear personally, any adult or the other applicant may apply on
    > behalf of the absent applicant. The proper paper work must be completed prior to applying.
    > Proper paper work including the absent applicant's identification and age is required. If one
    > party is incarcerated, this office must send out and receive information directly from the
    > incarcerated person.
    >
    > If the absent applicant is under 18 years of age, proof of parental consent, or judicial
    > permission, or proof of the dissolution of a previous marriage must be provided.
    >
    > A valid form of photo identification, such as a driver's license, U.S. passport, certified copy of
    > a birth certificate, or military identification is required.
    >
    > Time Limitations
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    > either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented
    > at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    > marriage license expires.
    >
    > You can apply for a marriage license in downtown Dallas at the Records Building, 1st Floor, 509
    > Main Street, Suite 120 (8:00am-4:00pm, Monday through Friday) 214-653-7559 or 214-653-7131. You
    > can apply in East Dallas at the East Dallas Government Center, 3443 St. Francis Ave. (call for
    > office hours) 214-321-3182. You can also apply at the North Dallas Government Center, 10056 Marsh
    > Lane, Suite 137, Dallas (call for office hours) 214-904-3032. Justice of the Peace, 7201 S. Polk,
    > Dallas, (972) 228-0280 (Call for office hours); Justice of the Peace, 1411 W. Beltline Road,
    > Richardson, (972) 231-1439 (Call for office hours)
     
  18. [email protected] wrote:
    > Here's the legal requirements for getting a marriage license in the City of Dallas . . . down at
    > the bottom, it says:
    > ================================
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    > either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented
    > at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    > marriage license expires.
    >
    > ==============================
    >
    > Why oh why oh why does the City of Dallas (or any governmental agency for that matter) require a
    > "marriage ceremony" beyond the official governmental-issued marriage license? It would be one
    > thing if they required everyone to appear before a civil Judge (or Justice of the Peace) to make
    > things official and final . . . BUT--here, the government says things are not final until a
    > religious group says it is.

    I must have missed the part where it said a religious ceremony was required. Can you quote
    it specifically? Remember that appearing before a JP or other secular authority [judge,
    marriage official] can also be considered a ceremony even though there may be no mentions or
    a deity or a religion during said appearance. Interesting to note the 72 hour waiting
    period... probably why Brittany Spears did not get married in Dallas :)

    > It seems to me that it is unconstitutional for the City of Dallas to involve religion in
    > validating a government document in this way . . .
    >
    > What do y'all think?
    >
    > --Tock
    >
    > Text of the City of Dallas' marriage requirement below:
    >
    > From http://www.dallascounty.org/html/citizen-serv/county-clerk/marriage-license. html#1
    >
    > Requirements A man and a woman desiring to enter into a ceremonial marriage must obtain a marriage
    > license from the county clerk of any county of this state.
    >
    > Eligibility
    >
    > Applicants should be 18 years or older with valid identification. Applicants under the age of 18
    > must have a certified copy of their birth certificate.
    >
    > Applicants under the age of 18, but older than 14 years can apply for a marriage license with
    > parental consent or permission of a judge, or documents establishing that a prior marriage has
    > been dissolved.
    >
    > Applicant under the age of 14 are required to have both parents consents and a court order giving
    > permission to marry.

    Wow! The Religious Reich types are always complaining that gay are

    long as the parents or a judge consents. [Yes, technically it is not pedophilia since a 14 yr old
    can reasonably be expected to be post pubescent, so Eubophilia [sp?] would be more appropriate]

    > Blood test or health certificates are not required to obtain a license.
    >
    > A license will be issued to persons who may be delinquent for payment of court-ordered child
    > support.
    >
    > There is a 30-day waiting period after a divorce is granted within this state. An applicant may
    > apply for a license within the 30 days if the court issues a waiver.
    >
    > Acquiring a License
    >
    > A marriage license can be obtained from a county clerk's office. The cost is $41.00 in cash.
    >
    > If an applicant is unable to appear personally, any adult or the other applicant may apply on
    > behalf of the absent applicant. The proper paper work must be completed prior to applying.
    > Proper paper work including the absent applicant's identification and age is required. If one
    > party is incarcerated, this office must send out and receive information directly from the
    > incarcerated person.
    >
    > If the absent applicant is under 18 years of age, proof of parental consent, or judicial
    > permission, or proof of the dissolution of a previous marriage must be provided.
    >
    > A valid form of photo identification, such as a driver's license, U.S. passport, certified copy of
    > a birth certificate, or military identification is required.
    >
    > Time Limitations
    >
    > There is a 72-hour waiting period following the issuing of the license prior to the ceremony. If
    > either party is active military the 72-hour is waived if the military identification is presented
    > at the time of application.
    >
    > If a marriage ceremony has not been conducted before the 31st day after the license is issued, the
    > marriage license expires.
    >
    > You can apply for a marriage license in downtown Dallas at the Records Building, 1st Floor, 509
    > Main Street, Suite 120 (8:00am-4:00pm, Monday through Friday) 214-653-7559 or 214-653-7131. You
    > can apply in East Dallas at the East Dallas Government Center, 3443 St. Francis Ave. (call for
    > office hours) 214-321-3182. You can also apply at the North Dallas Government Center, 10056 Marsh
    > Lane, Suite 137, Dallas (call for office hours) 214-904-3032. Justice of the Peace, 7201 S. Polk,
    > Dallas, (972) 228-0280 (Call for office hours); Justice of the Peace, 1411 W. Beltline Road,
    > Richardson, (972) 231-1439 (Call for office hours)

    --
    +==================== L. Michael Roberts ======================+ This represents my personal opinion
    and NOT Company policy Goderich, Ont, Canada. To reply, post a request for my valid E-mail

    +================================================================+
     
  19. [email protected] wrote:
    > "Eric Bohlman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >
    >><[email protected]> wrote in news:[email protected]:
    >
    >>>What do y'all think?
    >>
    >>I don't see any implications of religion in the requirements that you posted. Marriage in the
    >>contemporary Western world is generally a
    >
    > two-step
    >
    >>process: first you get a license to marry, and then you marry. The latter step has to be formally
    >>"performed" and a reasonably large class of persons, including but my no means limited to
    >>clergymen (just a
    >
    > convenience
    >
    >>to the people who want a religious recognition of marriage to temporally coincide with a civil
    >>recognition of marriage) are authorized to perform that step.
    >
    >
    > Yah, they are authorized . . . but why should the government authorize clergymen and no one else
    > to do this? Heck, notary publics stamp all sorts of documents, but they can't validate a marriage
    > license. IMHO, the government cannot accept a document's validation only because its validator
    > happened to be a member of the clergy.

    In Canada, JPs, judges, captains of commercial vessels and "marriage officiators" are
    authorised to solemnise marriage as well as clergy. There are plenty of secular authorities
    available to those who do not wish a religious ceremony. Couples can write their own
    marriage vows thus these secular authorities may or may not mention a deity in accordance
    with the wishes of the couple. In the USA, YMMV.

    <snip>

    --
    +==================== L. Michael Roberts ======================+ This represents my personal opinion
    and NOT Company policy Goderich, Ont, Canada. To reply, post a request for my valid E-mail

    +================================================================+
     
  20. "Bob LeChevalier" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > [email protected] (Ninure Saunders) wrote:
    > >-Where does it say the marriage ceremony has to be religious? JPs -and other magistrates can -
    > >and very often do - perform perform -perfectly secular ceremonies.
    > >
    > >But why should any "ceremone" be required?
    >
    > Because "We the people" say so. You want legal recognition for your relationship, you jump through
    > the required legal hoops, whatever they be. If they aren't unconstitutional, there is no problem.
    >
    > >There is no requirement for a "divorce ceremony", is there?
    >
    > There is. A judge has to issue an order. Until he does, you aren't divorced.

    That's a legal proceeding, not a ceremony.
     
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