Undercooked Christmas salmon debate



J

Jude

Guest
Interesting debate between myself and my family this Christmas day.
Every year, my mom cooks a nice piece of beef, and orders a cold
poached salmon with dill sauce. I do all the appetizers and sides, and
she and I split the work on making desserts.

So last year, she found out that the grocery would do a poached salmon
for less than half the price of the fish market. It was wonderful -
flaky and tender, with a lovely creamy dill sauce.

This year, not so good. My first upset was when I asked her for the
dill sauce to put in a nice bowl for the buffet table. She hands me a
bottle of McCormicks Lemon Dill Marinade. I asked, what the heck is
this? She said that the guy at the store told her its the same thing
they gave us last year, but last year they poured some from the bottles
into a smaller tub and this year they were giving us a whole bottle,
lucky us. Apparently he thought my mom was either a) stupid or b)
overly harrassed byu the holiday shopping already, and he was right.
She took the bottle of marinade. Last year we had a nice thick white
sauce flecked with dill, which appeared to be a sour cream based sauce
like I would make at home. The bottle we got this year was an icky
yellow color, runny like a marinade, and specifically said on the back
that it was for marinading fish or chicken. NOT a sauce for the cooked
salmon. So I grabbed the sour cream and a few lemons, determined to
make a new sauce. That's when we discovered that Mom as out of dill. So
I put together a lemon-tarroagon sauce instead, with some lemon zest
and minced parsley for color. Pretty good sauce.

Put the salmon on a platter surrounded by lemon. Put it on the table.
When I got there to serve my plate, I noticed that the outside 1/4 inch
or so was pale pink and flaky like a nice poached salmon is. Underneath
that, the flesh was soft and bright pink - like sushi. Tasted
undercvooked, almost raw, texture was that of almost raw fish as well.

The debate began. I refused to eat it, becuase I don't trust
uindercooked food. My sister said that if salmon was good enough to eat
as sushi, it would be fine. True, but then again, the freshness of
sushi is usually a factor, and Mom had picked up the poached salmon on
the morning of December 24 to serve for dinner at 7 PM on Dec 25. Not
exactly the freshness standard I would accept as safe.

One of our guests said he loved sushi and this was the new way to cook
salmon. He stated that restaurants all over were serving their salmon
soft on the inside, it's a trent. Again I look at the fact that serving
it like that would be PLANNED and factored into freshness choices.
Secondly, I think maybe he was mixing up salmon and tuna. I've had
plenty of seared tuna that's raw or nearly so inside and not thought
twice about it.

So do you think it was safe to eat? I refused and told Mom that she
should return it to the market, along with the bottle of sauce, and
demand a refund of her $50. Mom simply threw what was left away. My
sister got sick that night but swears it wasn't the fish. Haven't
talked to any of the guests

Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
much better! What would you have done?
 
Jude wrote:

>
> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?
>


unless I was sure it was sashimi grade salmon, I would not eat it unless it
was cooked.

--
..:Heather:.
www.velvet-c.com
Step off, beyotches, I'm the roflpimp!
 
Jude wrote:
> [snips]
> Would YOU have eaten it?


No, but not because I feared it was unsafe. A grocery store that would
do this on the cheap is 99% sure to be using farmed Atlantic salmon for
this product, and I won't eat that stuff.

Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?

No, but if I happened to encounter the guy in charge of the meat
department in the next few days I would caution him that he has an
employee who tried to pass off that lame marinade as a sauce. I'd do
it not in a "I want my money back" tone but as though I was helping him
keep tabs on his staff.

> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?


I think the others are right that poached salmon is often undercooked
nowadays. I have done it that way myself with wild king salmon I
caught myself. But I make sure there's enough that is fully cooked for
those who prefer it that way. (Grilling is my favorite way, anyway)
-aem
 
If I INTENDED to eat salmon sashimi, I wouldn't make a fuss. BUT... If
the salmon is supposed to be cooked, cook it THOROUGHLY, please. I
don't want to eat a fish that's half-cooked and half-raw. I think
that's icky and sloppy.

We had salmon too, cooked over the barbecue in a particularly delicious
way. It was cooked completely, I'm glad to say.

Melissa
 
On 2005-12-28, Jude <[email protected]> wrote:

> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?


No and Hell yes!

I love a "big stink" and never miss a chance. The clerks at my
Safeway cringe when I enter the store. I'd *DEMAND* a full refund
(unless your guests ate most of it).

nb
 
On 27 Dec 2005 16:29:49 -0800, "Jude" <[email protected]> wrote:

(snip raw-fish story)

>Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
>Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
>without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
>had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
>much better! What would you have done?


I have to say ewwww on both counts! If it was me that fish would have
gone back into the wrapping to go back to the store on boxing day, and
the so-called 'dill sauce' with it!

--
~Karen aka Kajikit
Crafts, cats, and chocolate - the three essentials of life
http://www.kajikitscorner.com
Online photo album - http://community.webshots.com/user/kajikit
 
Jude wrote:
> Interesting debate between myself and my family this Christmas day.
> Every year, my mom cooks a nice piece of beef, and orders a cold
> poached salmon with dill sauce. I do all the appetizers and sides, and
> she and I split the work on making desserts.
>
> So last year, she found out that the grocery would do a poached salmon
> for less than half the price of the fish market. It was wonderful -
> flaky and tender, with a lovely creamy dill sauce.
>
> This year, not so good. My first upset was when I asked her for the
> dill sauce to put in a nice bowl for the buffet table. She hands me a
> bottle of McCormicks Lemon Dill Marinade. I asked, what the heck is
> this? She said that the guy at the store told her its the same thing
> they gave us last year, but last year they poured some from the bottles
> into a smaller tub and this year they were giving us a whole bottle,
> lucky us. Apparently he thought my mom was either a) stupid or b)
> overly harrassed byu the holiday shopping already, and he was right.
> She took the bottle of marinade. Last year we had a nice thick white
> sauce flecked with dill, which appeared to be a sour cream based sauce
> like I would make at home. The bottle we got this year was an icky
> yellow color, runny like a marinade, and specifically said on the back
> that it was for marinading fish or chicken. NOT a sauce for the cooked
> salmon. So I grabbed the sour cream and a few lemons, determined to
> make a new sauce. That's when we discovered that Mom as out of dill. So
> I put together a lemon-tarroagon sauce instead, with some lemon zest
> and minced parsley for color. Pretty good sauce.
>
> Put the salmon on a platter surrounded by lemon. Put it on the table.
> When I got there to serve my plate, I noticed that the outside 1/4 inch
> or so was pale pink and flaky like a nice poached salmon is. Underneath
> that, the flesh was soft and bright pink - like sushi. Tasted
> undercvooked, almost raw, texture was that of almost raw fish as well.
>
> The debate began. I refused to eat it, becuase I don't trust
> uindercooked food. My sister said that if salmon was good enough to eat
> as sushi, it would be fine. True, but then again, the freshness of
> sushi is usually a factor, and Mom had picked up the poached salmon on
> the morning of December 24 to serve for dinner at 7 PM on Dec 25. Not
> exactly the freshness standard I would accept as safe.
>
> One of our guests said he loved sushi and this was the new way to cook
> salmon. He stated that restaurants all over were serving their salmon
> soft on the inside, it's a trent. Again I look at the fact that serving
> it like that would be PLANNED and factored into freshness choices.
> Secondly, I think maybe he was mixing up salmon and tuna. I've had
> plenty of seared tuna that's raw or nearly so inside and not thought
> twice about it.
>
> So do you think it was safe to eat? I refused and told Mom that she
> should return it to the market, along with the bottle of sauce, and
> demand a refund of her $50. Mom simply threw what was left away. My
> sister got sick that night but swears it wasn't the fish. Haven't
> talked to any of the guests
>
> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?
>


I would have taken the remainder back to the store with the receipt and
politely asked for a refund.

--

saerah

http://anisaerah.blogspot.com/

"Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a
disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
-Baruch Spinoza

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There
is another theory which states that this has already happened."
-Douglas Adams
 
The Bubbo wrote:
> Jude wrote:
>
>
>>Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
>>Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
>>without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
>>had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
>>much better! What would you have done?
>>

>
>
> unless I was sure it was sashimi grade salmon, I would not eat it unless it
> was cooked.
>


same here.

--

saerah

http://anisaerah.blogspot.com/

"Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a
disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
-Baruch Spinoza

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There
is another theory which states that this has already happened."
-Douglas Adams
 
Jude wrote:
> Interesting debate between myself and my family this Christmas day.
> Every year, my mom cooks a nice piece of beef, and orders a cold
> poached salmon with dill sauce. I do all the appetizers and sides, and
> she and I split the work on making desserts.
>
> So last year, she found out that the grocery would do a poached salmon
> for less than half the price of the fish market. It was wonderful -
> flaky and tender, with a lovely creamy dill sauce.
>
> This year, not so good. My first upset was when I asked her for the
> dill sauce to put in a nice bowl for the buffet table. She hands me a
> bottle of McCormicks Lemon Dill Marinade. I asked, what the heck is
> this? She said that the guy at the store told her its the same thing
> they gave us last year, but last year they poured some from the bottles
> into a smaller tub and this year they were giving us a whole bottle,
> lucky us. Apparently he thought my mom was either a) stupid or b)
> overly harrassed byu the holiday shopping already, and he was right.
> She took the bottle of marinade. Last year we had a nice thick white
> sauce flecked with dill, which appeared to be a sour cream based sauce
> like I would make at home. The bottle we got this year was an icky
> yellow color, runny like a marinade, and specifically said on the back
> that it was for marinading fish or chicken. NOT a sauce for the cooked
> salmon. So I grabbed the sour cream and a few lemons, determined to
> make a new sauce. That's when we discovered that Mom as out of dill. So
> I put together a lemon-tarroagon sauce instead, with some lemon zest
> and minced parsley for color. Pretty good sauce.
>
> Put the salmon on a platter surrounded by lemon. Put it on the table.
> When I got there to serve my plate, I noticed that the outside 1/4 inch
> or so was pale pink and flaky like a nice poached salmon is. Underneath
> that, the flesh was soft and bright pink - like sushi. Tasted
> undercvooked, almost raw, texture was that of almost raw fish as well.
>
> The debate began. I refused to eat it, becuase I don't trust
> uindercooked food. My sister said that if salmon was good enough to eat
> as sushi, it would be fine. True, but then again, the freshness of
> sushi is usually a factor, and Mom had picked up the poached salmon on
> the morning of December 24 to serve for dinner at 7 PM on Dec 25. Not
> exactly the freshness standard I would accept as safe.
>
> One of our guests said he loved sushi and this was the new way to cook
> salmon. He stated that restaurants all over were serving their salmon
> soft on the inside, it's a trent. Again I look at the fact that serving
> it like that would be PLANNED and factored into freshness choices.
> Secondly, I think maybe he was mixing up salmon and tuna. I've had
> plenty of seared tuna that's raw or nearly so inside and not thought
> twice about it.
>
> So do you think it was safe to eat? I refused and told Mom that she
> should return it to the market, along with the bottle of sauce, and
> demand a refund of her $50. Mom simply threw what was left away. My
> sister got sick that night but swears it wasn't the fish. Haven't
> talked to any of the guests
>
> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?


I'd have wrapped the fish back up and taken it and the bottle of
marinade back to the store on the 26th. While I enjoy sushi, sashimi
and rare sashimi grade salmon cooked on the grill there is no way this
gal would eat partially cooked grocery store salmon. Salmon is just
way to prone to icky things add to that being partially cooked a day
before. Sounds like eating it would be asking for a case of parasites
or food poisoning.

Jessica
 
"Jude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[]

> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?


I wouldn't have eaten it. Sashimi is sashimi, poached is poached, and this
seems to have been neither one thing nor the other. Even if you didn't keep
the remains to return to the shop, I'd still have a word with them next time
you go in. If they were deliberately aiming for rare, because of the
restaurant trend, you could politely point out the freshness factor. *And*
mention that you were "accidentally" given marinade rather than sauce.

(Ob rare xmas food - I managed to mess up the cooking time for the beef, and
had to endure twenty minutes of my mother eyeing it while it was resting,
and telling me it was undercooked and would be horrible. When I served it,
it turned out to be the best piece of rare beef I - or she! - had ever
cooked, so mother had to eat her words, along with several helpings of the
beef. Go me :)

Jani
 
I always eat my salmon almost raw on the inside and seared on the
outside. I've done it with farmed and wild salmon for years and have
never gotten sick. I've always believed that all the parasites and
bacteria exist on the outside of a fish fillet if they form at all. But
that is in no way a scientific theory it's just the rationalization I
make to myself because I LOVE raw and seared fish.
 
Jude wrote:
>
> So do you think it was safe to eat? I refused and told Mom that she
> should return it to the market, along with the bottle of sauce, and
> demand a refund of her $50. Mom simply threw what was left away. My
> sister got sick that night but swears it wasn't the fish. Haven't
> talked to any of the guests
>
> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?
>



I would tell the store manager about it; not demanding anything; just
see what his reaction is. If he doesn't offer any kind of adjustment,
I would quietly report the incident to the county health department and
then pretend to be surprised when their kitchen gets fined and/or shut
down while they make expensive improvements to bring it up to code. ;-)

Best regards,
Bob
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I always eat my salmon almost raw on the inside and seared on the
> outside. I've done it with farmed and wild salmon for years and have
> never gotten sick. I've always believed that all the parasites and
> bacteria exist on the outside of a fish fillet if they form at all. But
> that is in no way a scientific theory it's just the rationalization I
> make to myself because I LOVE raw and seared fish.


Yeah, but seared woulda been a whole different thing than poached.
 
Thanks to all of you. After the huge, ugly argument on Christmas, I
feel validated that I made the right choice by not eating it, no matter
what my sister tried to tell me. I coulddn't beleive the debate, but my
family LOVES to argue!
 
"Jude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Interesting debate between myself and my family this Christmas day.
> Every year, my mom cooks a nice piece of beef, and orders a cold
> poached salmon with dill sauce. I do all the appetizers and sides, and
> she and I split the work on making desserts.
>
> So last year, she found out that the grocery would do a poached salmon
> for less than half the price of the fish market. It was wonderful -
> flaky and tender, with a lovely creamy dill sauce.
>
> This year, not so good. My first upset was when I asked her for the
> dill sauce to put in a nice bowl for the buffet table. She hands me a
> bottle of McCormicks Lemon Dill Marinade. I asked, what the heck is
> this? She said that the guy at the store told her its the same thing
> they gave us last year, but last year they poured some from the bottles
> into a smaller tub and this year they were giving us a whole bottle,
> lucky us. Apparently he thought my mom was either a) stupid or b)
> overly harrassed byu the holiday shopping already, and he was right.
> She took the bottle of marinade. Last year we had a nice thick white
> sauce flecked with dill, which appeared to be a sour cream based sauce
> like I would make at home. The bottle we got this year was an icky
> yellow color, runny like a marinade, and specifically said on the back
> that it was for marinading fish or chicken. NOT a sauce for the cooked
> salmon. So I grabbed the sour cream and a few lemons, determined to
> make a new sauce. That's when we discovered that Mom as out of dill. So
> I put together a lemon-tarroagon sauce instead, with some lemon zest
> and minced parsley for color. Pretty good sauce.
>
> Put the salmon on a platter surrounded by lemon. Put it on the table.
> When I got there to serve my plate, I noticed that the outside 1/4 inch
> or so was pale pink and flaky like a nice poached salmon is. Underneath
> that, the flesh was soft and bright pink - like sushi. Tasted
> undercvooked, almost raw, texture was that of almost raw fish as well.
>
> The debate began. I refused to eat it, becuase I don't trust
> uindercooked food. My sister said that if salmon was good enough to eat
> as sushi, it would be fine. True, but then again, the freshness of
> sushi is usually a factor, and Mom had picked up the poached salmon on
> the morning of December 24 to serve for dinner at 7 PM on Dec 25. Not
> exactly the freshness standard I would accept as safe.
>
> One of our guests said he loved sushi and this was the new way to cook
> salmon. He stated that restaurants all over were serving their salmon
> soft on the inside, it's a trent. Again I look at the fact that serving
> it like that would be PLANNED and factored into freshness choices.
> Secondly, I think maybe he was mixing up salmon and tuna. I've had
> plenty of seared tuna that's raw or nearly so inside and not thought
> twice about it.
>
> So do you think it was safe to eat? I refused and told Mom that she
> should return it to the market, along with the bottle of sauce, and
> demand a refund of her $50. Mom simply threw what was left away. My
> sister got sick that night but swears it wasn't the fish. Haven't
> talked to any of the guests
>
> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?


No, I would not have eaten it (I poach salmon, and I eat salmon sashimi -
regularly):

First, what you describe is salmon that was not cooked through, as proper
poaching would have done.

Second, the uncooked center means it was heated but not brought up to full
temperature and likely it was then left to cool: warmed raw fish is a
breeding ground for all kinds of nasty stuff. 48 hours worth.

Third, anyone who is so careless as to undercook fish likely has hygiene
habits commensurate with their attention to basics, and probably
contaminated the fish by handling it.

and yes, I would have complained to the store as well as the state.

Why the state? If the store's help would try to foist off the sauce as you
describe, and also sell you undercooked fish as you describe, they need a
visit from the state to jack up their practices before they get someone
really sick.

And I would bet your sister DID get sick from undercooked/poorly handled
salmon,

Note - If you want to cook salmon slightly under done
(half-ass-"sashimi"-"trendy" style) you had best cook the damn thing less
than a half-hour before serving, and if you want it cold, chill it in a
flavored ice bath or in the freezer.

> Or was I overreacting?


Hmmm.. Overpriced watery sauce, under-poached fish, sick sister --
overreacting?

No.

> personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?
>
 
"Jude" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Would YOU have eaten it? Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?
> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?
>


I would have eaten it. My salmon is sometimes pink inside and I don't mind
it that way. If the fish didn't smell bad or seem old, I would eat it. I'm
not saying you're wrong for not having eaten it, but things like that don't
creep me out. But there was a restaurant next door to my house which made
fantastic pork chops which were slightly pink (but completely hot) inside. I
drool at the memory of those.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I always eat my salmon almost raw on the inside and seared on the
> outside. I've done it with farmed and wild salmon for years and have
> never gotten sick. I've always believed that all the parasites and
> bacteria exist on the outside of a fish fillet if they form at all. But
> that is in no way a scientific theory it's just the rationalization I
> make to myself because I LOVE raw and seared fish.
>


I have a friend from Estonia, where they buy fish filets at the store and
lightly salt them , placing them in the fridge for a few days. Rather
similar to a gravlax treatment. Then for up to 2 weeks they eat the salmon.
I have had it and it tastes perfectly fresh and delicious. I have never
heard of him getting sick from it and now he buys his salmon filets from big
grocery stores here in America a la Safeway. Bacteria sure as heck invades
fish quickly if it is not properly processed and stored, but I think there
is a difference between undercooked and contaminated.
 
Jude wrote:
<snip>

>
> So do you think it was safe to eat?


No.

> I refused and told Mom that she
> should return it to the market, along with the bottle of sauce, and
> demand a refund of her $50. Mom simply threw what was left away. My
> sister got sick that night but swears it wasn't the fish. Haven't
> talked to any of the guests
>
> Would YOU have eaten it?


No. I wouldn't have let anyone else eat it either.

>Would you have made a big stink at the marlet?


Just a little stink.

> Or was I overreacting? personally, I cooked from non until 6:30 PM
> without stopping, so I was pretty upset to find out that the food we
> had ordered prepared wasn't right - I coulda done it myself and had it
> much better! What would you have done?


Taken it back the next morning and demeanded my money back or a store
credit. I would also have written a letter to the manager and
explained my dissatisfaction. Probably whomever was poaching the
salmon was in the Holiday rush as well, and simply rushed it out of the
poacher. That's no excuse and they are lucky no one got seriously ill.

-L.
 
[email protected] wrote:
> I always eat my salmon almost raw on the inside and seared on the
> outside. I've done it with farmed and wild salmon for years and have
> never gotten sick. I've always believed that all the parasites and
> bacteria exist on the outside of a fish fillet if they form at all.


There are a number of parasites that can and do inhabit the flesh of
fish, especially worms.

> But
> that is in no way a scientific theory it's just the rationalization I
> make to myself because I LOVE raw and seared fish.


I have had far too much invertebrate zoology to eat meats raw.

-L.