Understanding the mind of the 4x4 driver (Well many of them)...

[Clive George]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Snip the rest. No, you still don't get it. No matter what you say, it isn't a need. Your life
> > will not come to an end if you cannot do it.
> >
>
> Everything except water, air and a bit of basic food is not a need in your definition. Bikes
> aren't a need. You could walk wherever you wanted to
go
> barefoot and naked but then you don't actually need to go anywhere so
that's
> a luxury.

Well done, you're getting closer to it.

> What you are arguing about is life choices. You have made certain life choices, Paul-kisses has
> made other life choices. Yours are no more or
less
> valid than his except in your belief system. Get used to it, live and let
> live.

But Paul has failed to admit to himself that it is a choice - a want, not a need.

I'm not arguing for restricting people's choices. I'm arguing that they should accept that they are
such, and not claiming they are forced upon them, which is what need is.

cheers, clive

 

[Marc]

Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:

> >
> > Please, as you consider our use of a Range / Land Rover isn't a 'need',
> then
> > explain to me how we can, as a family, do the same things differently.
> And
> > please, don't say Public Transport.
>
> Oh careless man. Obviously none of what you describe is a 'need'. You're describing leisure
> activities, which is most definitely a 'want'.

In the last 2 years since my wife has been studying, I haven't had enough time to go to enough
rallies, or use the mountain bike, or walk, believe me leasure activities , especially outdoor ones,
soon become a NEED!

 

[Just Zis Guy]

On Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:51:01 -0000, "Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Careful there... Guy - Do you understand the point I'm making?

Of course. I just couldn't resist

Guy
===
** WARNING ** This posting may contain traces of irony. http://www.chapmancentral.com (BT ADSL and
dynamic DNS permitting)
NOTE: BT Openworld have now blocked port 25 (without notice), so old mail addresses may no longer
work. Apologies.

 

[Paul - XXX]

Clive George deftly scribbled:

> "Marc" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> Please, as you consider our use of a Range / Land Rover isn't a 'need', then explain to me how
>>>> we can, as a family, do the same things differently. And please, don't say Public Transport.
>>>
>>> Oh careless man. Obviously none of what you describe is a 'need'. You're describing leisure
>>> activities, which is most definitely a 'want'.
>>
>> In the last 2 years since my wife has been studying, I haven't had enough time to go to enough
>> rallies, or use the mountain bike, or walk, believe me leasure activities , especially outdoor
>> ones, soon become a NEED!
>
> heh. agreed. Why do you think I live in the dales? But it is entirely feasible to do outdoor
> leisure activities without the aid of a 4x4. Whether you _want_ to do otherwise is a
> different matter.

As we are part of the organisers of such events we see them as necessary.

--
...................................Paul-*** Seti 1411 wu in 10202 hours
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ http://graffiti.virgin.net/ar.sole/Index.htm

 

[Paul - XXX]

Clive George deftly scribbled:

> "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Snip the rest. No, you still don't get it. No matter what you say, it isn't a need. Your life
>>> will not come to an end if you cannot do it.
>>>
>>
>> Everything except water, air and a bit of basic food is not a need in your definition. Bikes
>> aren't a need. You could walk wherever you wanted to go barefoot and naked but then you don't
>> actually need to go anywhere so that's a luxury.
>
> Well done, you're getting closer to it.
>
>> What you are arguing about is life choices. You have made certain life choices, Paul-kisses has
>> made other life choices. Yours are no more or less valid than his except in your belief system.
>> Get used to it, live and let
>> live.
>
> But Paul has failed to admit to himself that it is a choice - a want, not a need.

Nope, I haven't. As organisers, helpers etc in these events we need to do certain things, such as
transport things to places. We chose the leisure activity, to do the leisure activity we need to do
other things to enjoy it fully.

> I'm not arguing for restricting people's choices. I'm arguing that they should accept that they
> are such, and not claiming they are forced upon them, which is what need is.

Hey, if it makes you feel happy, then I choose to drive a 4 x 4. ..

--
...................................Paul-*** Seti 1411 wu in 10202 hours
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ http://graffiti.virgin.net/ar.sole/Index.htm

 

[Clive George]

"Paul - ***" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George deftly scribbled:

> > But Paul has failed to admit to himself that it is a choice - a want,
not a
> > need.
>
> Nope, I haven't. As organisers, helpers etc in these events we need to do certain things, such as
> transport things to places. We chose the leisure activity, to do the leisure activity we need to
> do other things to enjoy
it
> fully.

Getting closer...

> > I'm not arguing for restricting people's choices. I'm arguing that they should accept that they
> > are such, and not claiming they are forced upon them, which is what need is.
>
> Hey, if it makes you feel happy, then I choose to drive a 4 x 4. ..

Yay!

You may think this was all just pointless word play. But there's an important concept behind it.
People can be very blinkered about their choices, and rationalise them as needs. "I need to drive my
children 2 miles to school". By doing this, they deny the existence of alternatives, and as we all
know these alternatives are frequently a lot better. We have to get people thinking about choice
before they can use it.

cheers, clive

 

[Paul - XXX]

"Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "Paul - ***" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...

> > Hey, if it makes you feel happy, then I choose to drive a 4 x 4. ..
>
> Yay!
>
> You may think this was all just pointless word play. But there's an important concept behind it.
> People can be very blinkered about their choices, and rationalise them as needs. "I need to drive
> my children 2 miles to school". By doing this, they deny the existence of alternatives, and as we
> all know these alternatives are frequently a lot better. We have to get people thinking about
> choice before they can use it.

But I don't drive my child 2 miles to school .. it's probably less than 300 yards ..

I also know I have alternatives, but I really like Range Rovers, they're way better than Mitsubishis
or Nissans ..

Sorry for the flippancy, I really, do and did from an early point, know what you were getting at.
However, we enjoy a varied range of leisure activities, some of which are done sat or stood stock
still for hours, some of which are done at a rate of knots, and to enjoy these activities we have
created a real need for so much 'extra' baggage. The fact that we aren't content to sit by and
merely perticipate, but also get involved, in one activity to European and beyond level, also adds
to our perceived need .. There I said it, perceived need. If you want to live in a cave, walk 12
miles to work every day and skin rabbits for clothes you're welcome to it, but I feel my and my
families basic needs are more than this.

The problem is, there is precious little in the way of alternative transport that's available that
will do what we demand of it. Our two tents, caravan, motorcycle trailer, camping trailer, dinghy
trailer, roof rack cubby box, roof rack cycle rack, towball cycle rack and hatchback cycle rack, use
of a horse trailer and a horse box demands a certain versatility, robustness and reliability in the
transport we need.


PS, the top two lines are a joke ..

--
...................................Paul-*** Seti 1411 wu in 10202 hours
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ http://graffiti.virgin.net/ar.sole/Index.htm

 

[Tony Raven]

Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> People can be very blinkered about their choices, and rationalise them as needs. "I need to drive
> my children 2 miles to school". By doing this, they deny the existence of alternatives, and as we
> all know these alternatives are frequently a lot better. We have to get people thinking about
> choice before they can use it.
>

Why? What you are saying is you disagree with other people's choices because they are not the
choices you would make and do not fit with your belief system. Of course you rationalise that as
they haven't thought about their choices because it easier than accepting they have thought about
it and come to a different decision than you would. People can be very blinkered about other
people's choices.

Tony

--
http://www.raven-family.com

"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
their job."

Samuel Goldwyn

 

[Andymorris]

Russell wrote:

>
> Surely its not just cyclists that despair of this section of road users, it must be all other road
> users, but this is a cycling NG so that's where we're coming from. Surely everyone knows somebody
> that drives a vast SUV with no real reason for owning such a vehicle. The particular one I'm
> thinking of actually goes off road everyday, climbing up a grass bank right outside the school
> causing a big nuisance. The door opens, kids climb out, SUV goes back home which is literally just
> around the corner. On top of that the attitude of the driver is very clearly "get out of my way
> and stop blocking the pavement, I need to get my very large, important (off road) vehicle up this,
> broom broom (turbo whine sound effects), grass bank".
>

They really make my key holding hand twitch as I have to squeze past them on the 1/2 pavement they
leave for me and my kids.

--
Andy Morris

AndyAtJinkasDotFreeserve.Co.UK

Love this: Put an end to Outlook Express's messy quotes
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

 

[John Blake]

In message id <[email protected]> on Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:29:40 -0000, Tony
Raven wrote in uk.rec.cycling :

>John Blake <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Where I come from it is called a bus. Some people call it a coach.
>>
>
>You don't come from the countryside then.

Ah. How are we defining countryside now?

As I look out my window I see trees, grass and other flora and fauna. I have also seen wildlife
hereabouts, badgers and foxes. Does that count? I am at least a dozen miles from my nearest city
centre. No I am not overlooking Regents or Hyde Park.

Do people live either on farms or in cities now?

 

[Tony Raven]

John Blake <[email protected]> wrote:
> In message id <[email protected]> on Tue, 11 Feb 2003 20:29:40 -0000, Tony
> Raven wrote in uk.rec.cycling :
>
>> John Blake <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Where I come from it is called a bus. Some people call it a coach.
>>>
>>
>> You don't come from the countryside then.
>
> Ah. How are we defining countryside now?
>

If it has buses visit no more than once a week its countryside, (discounting any coaches bringing
hoards of tourists to visit)

Tony

--
http://www.raven-family.com

"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
their job."

Samuel Goldwyn

 

[Clive George]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > People can be very blinkered about their choices, and rationalise them as needs. "I need to
> > drive my children 2 miles to school". By doing this, they deny the existence of
alternatives,
> > and as we all know these alternatives are frequently a lot better. We have to get people
> > thinking about choice before they can use it.
> >
>
> Why? What you are saying is you disagree with other people's choices because they are not the
> choices you would make and do not fit with your belief system.

I'm not saying that at all. Don't try and put words into my mouth (or keyboard..).

> Of course you rationalise that as they haven't thought about their choices because it easier than
> accepting they have thought about it and come to a different decision than you would. People can
> be very blinkered about other people's choices.

No. Experience tells us that they haven't considered the other choices. If you want, I can
phrase this something like 'there's a very high probability that they haven't considered the
other choices'.

clive

 

[Tony Raven]

Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> No. Experience tells us that they haven't considered the other choices. If you want, I can phrase
> this something like 'there's a very high probability that they haven't considered the other
> choices'.
>

Maybe their choice is to not consider other choices.

Tony
--
http://www.raven-family.com

"I don't want any yes-men around me. I want everybody to tell me the truth even if it costs them
their job."

Samuel Goldwyn

 

[Alan Braggins]

"Tony Raven" <[email protected]> writes:
> If it has buses visit no more than once a week its countryside,

Buses twice a week isn't uncommon. One in the morning to go into town on market day, one in the
afternoon to come back.

 

[Paul - XXX]

Clive George deftly scribbled:

> No. Experience tells us that they haven't considered the other choices. If you want, I can phrase
> this something like 'there's a very high probability that they haven't considered the other
> choices'.

What other choices ? We have a horse box, we have a car, we have legs, we have bikes .. there were
loads of choices for us, we considered them and the need was fulfilled by choosing the vehicle best
suited to it .. a 4 x 4.

You really think we went for a Range Rover without considering anything else ? You have a dim view
of people.

--
...................................Paul-*** Seti 1413 wu in 10232 hours
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ http://graffiti.virgin.net/ar.sole/Index.htm

 

[Clive George]

"Paul - ***" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George deftly scribbled:
>
> > No. Experience tells us that they haven't considered the other choices. If you want, I can
> > phrase this something like 'there's a very high probability that they haven't considered the
> > other choices'.
>
> What other choices ? We have a horse box, we have a car, we have legs, we have bikes .. there were
> loads of choices for us, we considered them and the need was fulfilled by choosing the vehicle
> best suited to it .. a 4 x 4.
>
> You really think we went for a Range Rover without considering anything else ? You have a dim view
> of people.

What makes you think I'm talking about you? Tony broadened the question back to the general case.

clive

 

[Paul - XXX]

Clive George deftly scribbled:

> "Paul - ***" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Clive George deftly scribbled:
>>
>>> No. Experience tells us that they haven't considered the other choices. If you want, I can
>>> phrase this something like 'there's a very high probability that they haven't considered the
>>> other choices'.
>>
>> What other choices ? We have a horse box, we have a car, we have legs, we have bikes .. there
>> were loads of choices for us, we considered them and the need was fulfilled by choosing the
>> vehicle best suited to it .. a 4 x 4.
>>
>> You really think we went for a Range Rover without considering anything else ? You have a dim
>> view of people.
>
> What makes you think I'm talking about you? Tony broadened the question back to the general case.

Heheheh, OK, maybe a touch of paranoia, but you did seem to be trying, for whatever reason, to push
me into accepting your view of whether I thought I had a need or not.

--
...................................Paul-*** Seti 1413 wu in 10232 hours
http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/ http://graffiti.virgin.net/ar.sole/Index.htm

 

[Nick Kew]

In article <[email protected]>, one of infinite monkeys
at the keyboard of "Tony Raven" <[email protected]> wrote:

> If it has buses visit no more than once a week its countryside, (discounting any coaches bringing
> hoards of tourists to visit)

Tosh.

We have the 86 bus between Plymouth and Barnstaple passing at the rate of one an hour each way, not
to mention the more-obscure, less-frequent services. And according to the Beeb at the time of the
last election, we're the second most rural constituency in England.

Oh, well, I guess that makes us suburban, then ...

--
Wear your paunch with pride!

 

[Tony Raven]

> Howard <[email protected]> wrote:

> A long post, but some good stuff amongst it methinks...

> From http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2001/0212.mencimer.html

> 'Have you ever wondered why sport utility vehicle drivers seem like such assholes? Surely it's no
> coincidence that Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Dem-ocratic National Committee, tours Washington
> in one of the biggest SUVs on the market, the Cadillac Escalade, or that Jesse Ventura loves the
> Lincoln Navigator. Well, according to New York Times reporter Keith Bradsher's new book, High and
> Mighty, the connection between the two isn't a coincidence. Unlike any other vehicle before it,
> the SUV is the car of choice for the nation's most self-centered people; and the bigger the SUV,
> the more of a jerk its driver is likely to be.'

An ironic follow on from the above article. I was in Canada last week and watching the news about
the snow storm that blanketed Washington and the east coast. In Washington the authorities were
appealing for volunteer SUV owners to come forward and assist with keeping essential transportation
running through the storm.

Tony