Unsafe vitamin dosage ???

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by tammerrin, Feb 5, 2003.

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  1. tammerrin

    tammerrin Guest

    Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):

    Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV Niacin
    100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid 100%DV
    Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV

    The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming my
    diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be toxic at some point, but it doesn't say exactly
    how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.
     
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  2. Rob Campbell

    Rob Campbell Guest

    I'm not sure how meaningful these RDAs are anyway. No one really knows how much of each vitamin is
    needed per day for a sedentary person and they don't know how much more (if any) is needed for each
    one for an active person.

    Rob
     
  3. <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >
    > Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV Niacin
    > 100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid 100%DV
    > Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV
    >
    > The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming
    > my diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    > Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be toxic at some point, but it doesn't say exactly
    > how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.
    >

    The vitamins you have to watch out for are A, D, E, and K - These are fat soluble and can cause
    problems if you take large doses (Blood thinning, heart disease, etc). The other vitamins are water
    soluble, and pose less of a threat. Check out:

    http://my.webmd.com/content/article/3/1680_51086.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84
    E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

    For more information

    -Tom
     
  4. Global Comm

    Global Comm Guest

    NO! You don't have to worry about anything. The RDI's are merely a reccommendation for the average
    (i.e. sedentary) adult. The requirements for athletes are higher but there are no difinitive studies
    to indicate how much higher. Plus, what is the source of the vitamin? I mean, there are different
    levels of active molecule based on the type. Although it says 60mg of such and such, you may end up
    assimulating only 20g of the active molecule becasue of its form. Last, read up on TUI (tolerable
    upper intake), these are seperate reccommendations on the highest does you can take before it
    becomes toxic.

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >
    > Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV Niacin
    > 100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid 100%DV
    > Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV
    >
    > The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming
    > my diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    > Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be toxic at some point, but it doesn't say exactly
    > how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.
     
  5. "GLOBAL COMM" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > NO! You don't have to worry about anything. The RDI's are merely a reccommendation for the average
    > (i.e. sedentary) adult. The requirements for athletes are higher but there are no difinitive
    > studies to indicate
    how
    > much higher. Plus, what is the source of the vitamin? I mean, there are different levels of
    > active molecule based on the type. Although it says 60mg of such and such, you may end up
    > assimulating only 20g of the active molecule becasue of its form. Last, read up on TUI (tolerable
    > upper intake), these are seperate reccommendations on the highest does you can take before it
    > becomes toxic.
    >
    >

    Apparently, you didn't follow the link. I said nothing about RDI's. What I said was, fat soluble
    vitamins pose more of a risk because it takes your body longer to get rid of them. The link I posted
    listed POSSIBLE side effects of large doses, and who should be concerned.

    To say that "You don't have to worry about anything." Is a very dangerous statement - Which you seem
    to contradict when you mention TUI.

    -Tom
     
  6. In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] wrote:

    > Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >
    > Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV Niacin
    > 100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid 100%DV
    > Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV
    >
    > The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming
    > my diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    > Powerbars in a single day?

    The worst thing about it would be all that stupid sugar.

    --
    Will Brink

    http://www.brinkzone.com/ http://musclebuildingnutrition.com/ http://www.aboutsupplements.com/
     
  7. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "Rob Campbell" <[email protected]cc.ox.ac.uk> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > I'm not sure how meaningful these RDAs are anyway. No one really knows how much of each vitamin is
    > needed per day for a sedentary person and they
    don't
    > know how much more (if any) is needed for each one for an active person.

    Right..........

    Andy Coggan
     
  8. Bob James

    Bob James Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    > Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >
    > Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV Niacin
    > 100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid 100%DV
    > Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV
    >
    > The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming
    > my diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    > Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be toxic at some point, but it doesn't say exactly
    > how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.

    A, D, E, K are fat soluble, which means you store them in your fat. If you take 3 of these everyday,
    you are bound to accumulate them overtime and it could have some dangerous repercussion. Just to let
    you know though that vitamin overdose in adults are very rare, but common in children. Keep that
    fear, it will keep you alive. It sounds like this power bar not only provide calories, but a
    multi-vitamin as well. If you grab a multi-vitamin at the grocery store, they'll only recommend 1
    tablet daily. Also, if you are male, you have to be careful with iron. Men hardly lose iron
    throughout their life time.
     
  9. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "Tom Schulenburg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "GLOBAL COMM" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > NO! You don't have to worry about anything. The RDI's are merely
    a
    > > reccommendation for the average (i.e. sedentary) adult. The
    requirements
    > > for athletes are higher but there are no difinitive studies to
    indicate
    > how
    > > much higher. Plus, what is the source of the vitamin? I mean,
    there are
    > > different levels of active molecule based on the type. Although
    it says
    > > 60mg of such and such, you may end up assimulating only 20g of the
    active
    > > molecule becasue of its form. Last, read up on TUI (tolerable
    upper
    > > intake), these are seperate reccommendations on the highest does
    you can
    > > take before it becomes toxic.
    > >
    > >
    >
    > Apparently, you didn't follow the link. I said nothing about RDI's.
    What I
    > said was, fat soluble vitamins pose more of a risk because it takes
    your
    > body longer to get rid of them. The link I posted listed POSSIBLE
    side
    > effects of large doses, and who should be concerned.
    >
    > To say that "You don't have to worry about anything." Is a very
    dangerous
    > statement - Which you seem to contradict when you mention TUI.

    Heart problems and brittle bones are some of the side effects of overodsing on vitamins but it
    usually takes large doses over a long time for the worst side effects. One of the things to be
    really careful with is iron. Don't take any vitamins that contain iron since most varied diets
    already have more than enough iron for a man.
     
  10. "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:RLj0a.1453
    >
    > Heart problems and brittle bones are some of the side effects of overodsing on vitamins but it
    > usually takes large doses over a long time for the worst side effects. One of the things to be
    > really careful with is iron. Don't take any vitamins that contain iron since most varied diets
    > already have more than enough iron for a man.
    >

    Tom,

    Can you cite some studies on effects of ODing on vitamins? My mom is a vitamin freak.
     
  11. Whit

    Whit Guest

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:RLj0a.1453
    > >
    > > Heart problems and brittle bones are some of the side effects of overodsing on vitamins but it
    > > usually takes large doses over a long time for the worst side effects. One of the things to be
    > > really careful with is iron. Don't take any vitamins that contain iron since most varied diets
    > > already have more than enough iron for a man.
    > >
    >
    > Tom,
    >
    > Can you cite some studies on effects of ODing on vitamins? My mom is a vitamin freak.
    >

    btw, technically, IRON is a mineral, not a vitamin.

    iirc.

    my recollection was that it is nigh impossible to "O/D" on water soluble vitamins, since you just
    pee out what is not used.

    but fat soluble vitamins are another story.

    whit
     
  12. [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >
    <snip>
    >
    > would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3 Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be
    > toxic at some point, but it doesn't say exactly how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.

    There was thread in this group the other day about vitamin A:

    <http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=2b961d1f.0301280912.7fdf03dd%4-
    0posting.google.com&rnum=5&prev=/groups%3Fas_q%3Dvitamin%2520a%26safe%3Dimages%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3D-
    UTF-8%26as_ugroup%3Drec.running%26lr%3D%26num%3D100%26hl%3Den>

    As for zinc, it is one of the few things that are known to prevent the common cold, or shorten the
    recovery time. I'm not really in to these multi-vitamins, preferring to get everything from more
    natural sources via my diet, but I do get zinc lozenges when I think a cold is knocking on the door.

    Malc
     
  13. David Cohen

    David Cohen Guest

    "whit" <[email protected]> wrote
    > "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote
    > >> > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote
    > > >
    > > > Heart problems and brittle bones are some of the side effects of overodsing on vitamins but it
    > > > usually takes large doses over a
    long
    > > > time for the worst side effects. One of the things to be really careful with is iron. Don't
    > > > take any vitamins that contain iron
    since
    > > > most varied diets already have more than enough iron for a man.
    > > >
    > >
    > > Tom,
    > >
    > > Can you cite some studies on effects of ODing on vitamins? My mom
    is a
    > > vitamin freak.
    > >
    > btw, technically, IRON is a mineral, not a vitamin.
    >
    > iirc.
    >
    > my recollection was that it is nigh impossible to "O/D" on water
    soluble
    > vitamins, since you just pee out what is not used.

    Sort of. While not technically overdosing, excessive intake of some water soluable vitamins can be a
    problem. For example, too much niacin can be hepatotoxic.
    >
    > but fat soluble vitamins are another story.

    "Once upon a time, a beautiful princess ate polar bear liver for breakfast every day..."

    David
     
  14. Whitster

    Whitster Guest

    David Cohen <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "whit" <[email protected]> wrote
    > > "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote
    > > >> > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote
    > > > >
    > > > > Heart problems and brittle bones are some of the side effects of overodsing on vitamins but
    > > > > it usually takes large doses over a
    > long
    > > > > time for the worst side effects. One of the things to be really careful with is iron. Don't
    > > > > take any vitamins that contain iron
    > since
    > > > > most varied diets already have more than enough iron for a man.
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > Tom,
    > > >
    > > > Can you cite some studies on effects of ODing on vitamins? My mom
    > is a
    > > > vitamin freak.
    > > >
    > > btw, technically, IRON is a mineral, not a vitamin.
    > >
    > > iirc.
    > >
    > > my recollection was that it is nigh impossible to "O/D" on water
    > soluble
    > > vitamins, since you just pee out what is not used.
    >
    > Sort of. While not technically overdosing, excessive intake of some water soluable vitamins can be
    > a problem. For example, too much niacin can be hepatotoxic.

    noted.

    it can also flush your skin and give you a cheeeep 8th grade high

    whit

    > >
    > > but fat soluble vitamins are another story.
    >
    > "Once upon a time, a beautiful princess ate polar bear liver for breakfast every day..."
    >
    > David
     
  15. Amh

    Amh Guest

    On Thu, 06 Feb 2003 02:17:16 GMT, Bob James <[email protected]> wrote:

    >[email protected] wrote:
    >
    >> Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >>
    >> Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV
    >> Niacin 100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid
    >> 100%DV Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV
    >>
    >> The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming
    >> my diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    >> Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be toxic at some point, but it doesn't say
    >> exactly how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.
    >
    >A, D, E, K are fat soluble, which means you store them in your fat. If you take 3 of these
    >everyday, you are bound to accumulate them overtime and it could have some dangerous repercussion.

    Do you know if there is a saturation point for these vitamins in body fat? I have less than 10% body
    fat (as measured by calipers at a health fair). Does that mean I have to be more careful about an
    overdose than someone who has 20%?

    On the other side I recall hearing that in order to be absorbed by the body fat soluble vitamins
    also need to have fat being digested at the same time. If one is having a powerbar, which is low in
    fat, does that mean that the fat soluble vitamins are not being absorbed fully?

    Thanks, Andy

    >though that vitamin overdose in adults are very rare, but common in children. Keep that fear, it
    >will keep you alive. It sounds like this power bar not only provide calories, but a multi-vitamin
    >as well. If you grab a multi-vitamin at the grocery store, they'll only recommend 1 tablet daily.
    >Also, if you are male, you have to be careful with iron. Men hardly lose iron throughout their
    >life time.
     
  16. In article <[email protected]>, "Rob Campbell" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I'm not sure how meaningful these RDAs are anyway.

    Not very meaningful no.

    >No one really knows how much of each vitamin is needed per day for a sedentary person and they
    >don't know how much more (if any) is needed for each one for an active person.

    But data suggests its clearly higher than the RDAs, that much is sure.

    >
    > Rob
    >
    >

    --
    Will Brink

    http://www.brinkzone.com/ http://musclebuildingnutrition.com/ http://www.aboutsupplements.com/
     
  17. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    There are no comprehensive studies that I've seen but if you look through the literature on specific
    vitamins you can piece together a picture that doesn't look good.

    Vitamin neurotoxicity. Snodgrass SR. "Megadose vitamin therapy may cause injury that is confused
    with disease symptoms. High vitamin intake is more hazardous to peripheral organs than to the
    nervous system, because CNS vitamin entry is restricted. Vitamin administration into the brain or
    CSF, recommended in certain disease states, is hazardous and best avoided. The lack of controlled
    trials prevents us from defining the lowest human neurotoxic dose of any vitamin."

    Safety of megavitamin therapy. Omaye ST. "The therapeutic use of such compounds (megavitamin intake)
    is based on the spectacular effect of vitamins on deficiency diseases; however, evidence that the
    ingestion of large amounts of vitamins beyond the "Recommended Daily Allowances" (RDA) is beneficial
    is not within the basic concept of nutrition. Vitamins, like many substances, may be toxic when
    taken in large quantities, especially the fat-soluble vitamins, and the concept of "more is better"
    is a common misconception. Vitamin supplements can be suggested only in the unusual cases of
    patients having inadequate intake, disturbed absorption (genetic or otherwise), or increased tissue
    requirements. A well-balanced diet that includes a wide variety of foods from each of the four food
    groups is adequate for the supply of vitamins, as well as other nutrients, in healthy people. This
    paper will review some of the recent findings regarding vitamin toxicity and the mechanisms of
    toxicity."

    The problem is that there is very little information on the effects of even megadosage let alone
    slightly elevated levels of the varoius vitamins over long periods. This means that you have to
    infer effects. My inferences from my readings are that vitamin dosages significantly (more than
    300% or more) above the daily suggested amounts are probably bad for some people and it takes more
    for others.

    However, bicycle racers tend to think that a vitamin "suppliment" is a necessity and develop a habit
    of taking large doses of vitamins daily. This worries me and it especially bothers me to hear of
    brittle bones which can be a sign of reduced iron in the bones. And that can come from EPO use even
    though the patient is taking iron suppliments. This is a double edged sword because EPO generates
    improperly formed red blood cells and robs the bone marrow of iron. These cells die much faster than
    normal red blood cells and this can cause iron poisoning as the kidneys and liver strive to get rid
    of it. Elevated levels of blood iron from suppliments can make this much worse. I seem to recall
    reading a paper that suggested elevated Vitamin A also caused brittle bones.

    Anyway, there are all sorts of possible problems with taking large vitamin doses and very many
    of them would present difficulties in tracing it back to long term higher-than-normal dosages
    of vitamins.

    There is a reason that vitamins are trace substances in the body. Leave them that way.

    "Carl Sundquist" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:RLj0a.1453
    > >
    > > Heart problems and brittle bones are some of the side effects of overodsing on vitamins but it
    > > usually takes large doses over a
    long
    > > time for the worst side effects. One of the things to be really careful with is iron. Don't take
    > > any vitamins that contain iron
    since
    > > most varied diets already have more than enough iron for a man.
    > >
    >
    > Tom,
    >
    > Can you cite some studies on effects of ODing on vitamins? My mom is
    a
    > vitamin freak.
     
  18. Bob James

    Bob James Guest

    amh wrote:

    > Do you know if there is a saturation point for these vitamins in body fat? I have less than 10%
    > body fat (as measured by calipers at a health fair). Does that mean I have to be more careful
    > about an overdose than someone who has 20%?

    Everyone should be. Fat soluble vitamins are stored in fat tissues as well as the liver. Overdosing
    in fat soluble vitamins is still rare, though a few incidents have sprung up recently because
    multi-vitamins on the shelves now have mega doses, so they are faster to accumulate. If you look at
    them, they have like 150% of the daily recommended allowance. If you take a few of these tables
    everyday, they are bound to accumulate overtime to toxicity level.

    > On the other side I recall hearing that in order to be absorbed by the body fat soluble vitamins
    > also need to have fat being digested at the same time. If one is having a powerbar, which is low
    > in fat, does that mean that the fat soluble vitamins are not being absorbed fully?

    Yes. They never are, even the multi-vitamin tablets, that's probably why overdosing is rare.
     
  19. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Guest

    A recent study found that too much vitamin A can increase the chance of fractures by 7 times.

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20030123/ap_on_he_me/vitamin_a_fractures_4

    The Twinlab Daily Onecaps that I take have 10,000 IU, 2x the maximum recommended by the study and
    200% of the daily RDA, per the bottle.

    Patiently waiting for my arm to fall off, Dan

    [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > Powerbar, a performance/energy bar, contains (among other things):
    >
    > Vitamin C 100%DV Calcium 30%DV Iron 35%DV Vitamin E 100%DV Thiamin 100%DV Riboflavin 100%DV Niacin
    > 100%DV Vitamin B6 100%DV Folate 100%DV Vitamin B12 100%DV Biotin 100%DV Panthothenic Acid 100%DV
    > Phosphorus 35%DV Magnesium 35%DV Zinc 35%DV Copper 35%DV Chromium 20%DV Chloride 2%DV
    >
    > The entire bar is 65g or 2.29 oz., and the percentages are based on a 2000 calorie diet. Assuming
    > my diet is in fact around the 2000 calorie range, would I be endangering myself if I ate 2 or 3
    > Powerbars in a single day? I know that Zinc can be toxic at some point, but it doesn't say exactly
    > how much Zinc there is in terms of grams.
     
  20. Dan Thomas wrote:

    > The Twinlab Daily Onecaps that I take have 10,000 IU, 2x the maximum recommended by the study and
    > 200% of the daily RDA, per the bottle.
    >
    > Patiently waiting for my arm to fall off,

    Don't worry, the (alleged) nandrolone contamination will take care of that. You might even grow
    another one.
     
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