Upgrade Advice



rplace13

New Member
Oct 30, 2007
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Got a new project and need some advice. I have a 1993-ish Schwinn Double Time. Think hybrid tandem - flat bars thumb shifters 700 X 38 wheels/tires.

I am the original owner and my wife and I have taken it on a few metric centuries, long rides in the country and general fun slower jaunts. ONLY ONCE did we take it off road on trails...it really is not that much fun. I think 95% of the time moving forward we would still ride our own bikes when we head out, but I have been thinking of swapping some parts out and making it more of a pure rodie. In addition to narrower slick tires I am thinking drop bars, which in turn means different shifters. You see where this is going.

Before you all tell me to scrap it and buy a "real" tandem I can say I never see that happening. This bike while not ideal is surely fine for 10 outings a year. I bought it when I was working at the Schwinn shop in college. I got a great deal on it and was able to "upgrade" a lot of the parts before it ever left the showroom. I got rid of all the suntour parts in favor of Deore XT deralleurs with Deore shifters. I also swapped out the cranks for a nice set of Specialized and put Petersen SE brakes on it. So I think I have a decent base to build on.

I was sure it had a 8-speed free hub and figured all I had to do was pick up some 9-speed brakes/levers and a new cassette and I would be 1/2 way there. No dice it is actually a 7-speed freewheel so new wheels are in the future if I move forward with this. If I head down that road I'd probably lean toward a Campy wheel set since all of my other bikes, wifes included are Campy Record/Chorus/Centaur.

So my first question is when 7-speed was the norm on MTBs with 8-speed on higher end bikes do you think I can keep the current cranks on my tandem? Can I get to 9/10 speed with a new cassette/chain/shifters or is it a case that the chain is not just narrower on the outside but the chain wheels are "thinner" too? Will I need new chan wheels at a minimum?

I have a Campy Chours medium chage derailleur on my commuter bike that I could move to the tandem if the DXT is not the way to go and replace one on the commuter with something else. Trying to do it on some what of a budget since it is not a daily ride. Thinking perhaps some Campy 9-speed chorus levers would be good and relativly cheap.

The motivation to get it converted is that I have enlisted many of my co-workers to partake in "bike to work day" in May. I am offering up several of my bikes to those who don't have them and a co-worker that rides on a regular basis is going to ride in with me on the tandem if I can get it road worthy by then. I know it could be done as it, but have been wanting to throw drop bars on it for a while and this is the push I needed.

Sorry for the long winded post. But looking for any and all suggestions to get it back to the point where it will be used on a regular basis.
 
rplace13 said:
Got a new project and need some advice. I have a 1993-ish Schwinn Double Time. Think hybrid tandem - flat bars thumb shifters 700 X 38 wheels/tires.

...

I got rid of all the suntour parts in favor of Deore XT deralleurs with Deore shifters. I also swapped out the cranks for a nice set of Specialized and put Petersen SE brakes on it. So I think I have a decent base to build on.

I was sure it had a 8-speed free hub and figured all I had to do was pick up some 9-speed brakes/levers and a new cassette and I would be 1/2 way there. No dice it is actually a 7-speed freewheel so new wheels are in the future if I move forward with this. If I head down that road I'd probably lean toward a Campy wheel set since all of my other bikes, wifes included are Campy Record/Chorus/Centaur.

So my first question is when 7-speed was the norm on MTBs with 8-speed on higher end bikes do you think I can keep the current cranks on my tandem? Can I get to 9/10 speed with a new cassette/chain/shifters or is it a case that the chain is not just narrower on the outside but the chain wheels are "thinner" too? Will I need new chan wheels at a minimum?


If you are asking whether-or-not it is realistic convert your Flat Bar tandem to a Drop Bar bike, then the answer is 'yes' ... depending on the 'spare parts' that you may already have, you probably just need a pair of 10-speed Campagnolo shifters ...

When a 10-speed Campagnolo shifter is mated with an 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur the resultant indexing is 8-speed Shimano.

Many 7-speed Freewheels have 8-speed cog spacing which means that the above combination will index to many 7-speed Freewheels. If your Freewheel has an odd-ball spacing, then a 7-speed SunRace will index.

My experience is that Shimano has actually tried to maintain as much continuity as possible between most of its various rear derailleurs (there are exceptions, of course!), so there is a very high probability that your rear Deore XT derailleur is good-to-go ... if not, then just buy a "new" (normal rise) 9-speed Shimano rear derailleur.
Your cost == the cost of whichever 10-speed Campagnolo shifters you choose
+
Handlebars/tape and/or cables/housing
==
DONE!
N.B. A 2007-2008 QS (i.e., Centaur-on-down) LEFT shifter will work with a non-Campagnolo double front derailleur, but probably not a non-Campagnolo triple front derailleur; so, I always recommend non-QS shifters.

You can use ANY width chain you want with an ERGO front derailleur shifter.

My experience is that you can use ANY chainring with the Campagnolo LEFT shifter.
A few years ago I tried some thin, un-ramped & un-pinned rings that I had just to see how well-or-poorly they worked with the Campy shifters and my impression was-and-is that they shift as well as ramped-and-pinned Shimano rings with Shimano 6500 shifters.
Most recently, I resurrected a c1979 vintage DA front derailleur to use on one frame which I set up with 8-speed indexing.
So, you can use any front derailleur with a non-QS Campagnolo shifter, too.

In the future, you can use the hubbub.com alternate cable anchoring at 3 o'clock to achieve 9-speed Shimano indexing with the 10-speed Campagnolo shifters & 8-/9-speed Shimano rear derailleur.

BTW. I think you will be hard-pressed to find a 140mm Campagnolo rear hub ...

And, while 135mm Campagnolo rear hubs exist, they are rare ...

So, if you want a hub which uses a cassette, then you'll want to THINK SHIMANO.

BTW2. My impression is that the 8-speed Shimano chain is a clone of the SEDIS narrow chain ... so, that's a good choice for your next chain whenever you feel like changing the chain that is on the bike, IMO.
 
Thanks for the help so far. In reasearch a bit more I have come to find the rears spacing on my tandem is 130mm. Typical of 7-speed freewheel hybrid/MTBs of the day. Just about all tandem hubs are 145mm or more.

Trying to find a 40 hole 130mm rear hub, but not much luck. What are my options? Is respacing a 145mm hub possible all the way down to 130mm? Is there a bomb proof 130mm 36 hole road hub/rim combination that would hold up to 300-350 pounds of 2 riders and bike weight? Ya think a Velocidy Deep-V 36 hole 4 cross would do the job? No plans for mega decents so I don't think a drum brake is necessary. If no road hubs will do the job. What about respacing a 135mm MTB hub?
 
rplace13 said:
Thanks for the help so far. In reasearch a bit more I have come to find the rears spacing on my tandem is 130mm. Typical of 7-speed freewheel hybrid/MTBs of the day. Just about all tandem hubs are 145mm or more.

Trying to find a 40 hole 130mm rear hub, but not much luck. What are my options? Is respacing a 145mm hub possible all the way down to 130mm? Is there a bomb proof 130mm 36 hole road hub/rim combination that would hold up to 300-350 pounds of 2 riders and bike weight? Ya think a Velocidy Deep-V 36 hole 4 cross would do the job? No plans for mega decents so I don't think a drum brake is necessary. If no road hubs will do the job. What about respacing a 135mm MTB hub?
FWIW/IMO. You have two (obvious?) options ...

Based on the age of your tandem (and, because it is neither a Cannondale nor a Santana), I presume it is steel ... so, one option would be to respace the rear triangle to 145mm (MINIMALLY, TO 135mm) & realign the dropouts ...

OR, get a 40h SHIMANO Tandem hub & simply remove the unwanted spacers & either-shorten-or-substitute the axle (again, to 135mm).

BTW. Shimano had/has a rear hub with drum brake -- 36h, solid axle, (in the past) 126mm rear spacing. It can be respaced to fit a wider dropout spacing.

FYI. Respacing a steel frame just take a few minutes & minimal upper body strength ... with the rear wheel removed, grab the dropouts, exert whatever you perceive to be about 30lbs of force ... measure, repeat.

Realigning the dropouts is critical if you are using indexed shifting. This is most easily done with a pipe wrench whose jaws sandwich a couple of small pieces of scrap plywood (to protect the dropouts) or a LARGE adjustable wrench (which has less leverage due to the angle-of-attack) ...

Regardless, realigning the dropouts is a good idea whenever a rear triangle is respaced because it makes inserting/removing the rear wheel easier.
 
Thanks again for the help. I was considering having the frame tweaked, but did not know it was that easy...I don't need to take it to a shop for that?

As for the respacing of the hub I was kicking that idea around when I found this:

Shimano 40 Hole Rear Tandem Road Bike Hub w/ Drum brake - eBay (item 170466271948 end time Apr-01-10 16:47:48 PDT)

Says it is 7-speed and looks to have a lot of bits that could be removed on the drum brake side. Is the 7-speed an issue? I seem to have thought all Shimano freehubs took 7/8/9/10 except for some early Dura Ace that was different.

How does one go about respacing the axel? I assume it has to be done on both sides to center it...or can that be handled by the dishing of the wheel when it is built. That hub is pretty cheap if I could get it down to 130 from 145 that would be great. If it is a no go for 8/9/10 speeds then I am best off keeping my 7-speed freewheel or looking elsewhere.

Opinions/Thoughts?
 
rplace13 said:
I was considering having the frame tweaked, but did not know it was that easy...I don't need to take it to a shop for that?

As for the respacing of the hub I was kicking that idea around when I found this:

Shimano 40 Hole Rear Tandem Road Bike Hub w/ Drum brake - eBay (item 170466271948 end time Apr-01-10 16:47:48 PDT)

Says it is 7-speed and looks to have a lot of bits that could be removed on the drum brake side. Is the 7-speed an issue? I seem to have thought all Shimano freehubs took 7/8/9/10 except for some early Dura Ace that was different.

How does one go about respacing the axel? I assume it has to be done on both sides to center it...or can that be handled by the dishing of the wheel when it is built. That hub is pretty cheap if I could get it down to 130 from 145 that would be great. If it is a no go for 8/9/10 speeds then I am best off keeping my 7-speed freewheel or looking elsewhere.
SOME people will suggest that a frame should be taken to a shop to be respaced ... I don't think it is necessary ... and, I guess I would only trust a shop which would send the frame out to an actual framebuilder rather than hope that a 'Wrench' who had never respaced a frame would use my frame as possibly his maiden attempt.

I reckon that I've respaced at least a dozen frames -- sometimes, from 135mm to 130mm ... usually, out to 130mm ... I respaced one frame in to 120mm to use as a Single Speed.

It just requires patience ... USE NO ADDITIONAL LEVERAGE OTHER THAN YOUR OWN UPPER BODY STRENGTH. The use of a 2x4 to respace a frame is one of the few (yes, there are at least two more) points of misinformation which the late Sheldon Brown promulgated -- his technique of respacing by doing one dropout at a time means that you are opening up a can of worms with regard to centering ... and, he goes on to explain a laborious method of measuring/etc. to eventually achieve centering ex post facto. Alternatively, if the force (again, whatever you estimate to be 30 lbs of force) is applied concurrently to the two dropouts then unless the frame was really poorly fabricated, the frame will still be centered when you are done stretching the dropouts apart ...
Yes, the first frame I respaced was not my best frame ... just in case!
Dropout steel is incredibly SOFT ... it doesn't take much force to bend it when you are aligning the derailleur hanger & dropouts -- with a tool with a ~10" handle, use only what you estimate to be about 5 lbs of force. Repeat as necessary.

Yes. That particular hub would probably be the perfect hub for you to lace up for your Tandem ... it can be respaced down to 130mm ...

And, the price is right!

A 7-speed Shimano Freehub body is ~5mm shorter ... it is interchangeable with the 8-/9-speed Freehub body, and vice-versa.

To respace a Shimano rear hub, you either add or remove spacers (mostly, on the non-driveside) to achieve the correct OLD (over locknut dimension) ... obviously (?), if you are adding spacers, you need a longer axle ... I would, consequently, rather not cut that particular axle unless necessary & would prefer to cannibalize another hub for an axle which has the correct length.

You'll need a set of CONE WRENCHES.

As far as removing spacers from the driveside, if you don't have any other Shimano hubs AND you don't care about wheel interchangeablility, then it doesn't matter as much what the driveside spacing is. With another Shimano rear hub as the archetype, I would match the driveside FLANGE OFFSET from the driveside dropout so that if/when I opted to install an 8-/9-speed Freehub then I would not need to redish the rear rim.

BTW. It's hard to tell from the picture, but the particular rear hub may have 135mm OLD ... if that's the case, then just remove the 4mm spacer from the non-driveside.

FYI. It is almost impossible to replace a Shimano Freehub body if the hub is not laced because you will not be able to achieve counter-leverage to the 10mm Allen Wrench's force.

BTW2. I think there is a typo in the listing's headline -- I don't think a drum brake is actually included ... and, the title should probably read "drum brake compatible."