Upgrade to Triple Rear Derailleur

[[email protected]]

Hello All,

I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Ryan

 

[Sheldon Brown]

[email protected] wrote:

> I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
> rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
> the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
> be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
> can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
> thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
> shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Not only are you wasting money on the shifters, you're quite likely
wasting money on the new derailer.

There is actually no such thing as a "triple" rear derailer, that's
marketing talk. There are long-cage derailers, but you don't
necessarily need one, even with a triple chainring.

If you have good shifting habits and don't use the smallest chainring
with the smaller rear sprockets (you really shouldn't do this anyway)
you can often get along with a short cage derailer.

If you need to buy a derailer anyway, go for the long cage "triple"
version, but if you already have a short cage derailer, try it out
before throwing money away.

If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is harmless.

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/capacity

Sheldon "Try Before You Buy" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
| No state has an inherent right to survive through |
| conscript troops and, in the long run, no state ever has. |
| --Robert A. Heinlein |
+--------------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
> the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
> harmless.

Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Peter]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

>>If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
>>the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
>>harmless.
>
>
> Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
> possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
> to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.
>
The chain length should always be adjusted so the 'big-big' combination
will work, even if you don't plan to use it. That way the above
scenario will never arise. Note that more expensive parts than the
chain may be the ones that break if this guideline is ignored.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello All,
>
> I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
> rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change
to
> the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
> be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
> can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I
am
> thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
> shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

I have used 1998 Chorus shifters with a 2002/2003 Centaur medium cage
rear derailleur and the shifting is OK. There is a slight degradation
compared to the 1998 Chorus rear derailleur, but it is only noticeable
if you are aware of the mismatch in shifter/derailleur and try to
recognize it. In normal riding you won't notice any difference. So
you are probably wasting your money if you buy new shifters after only
6000 miles.

I have never tried the 2002/2003 Centaur shifters with the 1998 Chorus
rear derailleur but would guess the mismatch there is also immaterial.

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

"Peter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>
>>>If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
>>>the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
>>>harmless.
>>
>>
>> Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
>> possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is
>> impossible to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the
>> chain.
>>
> The chain length should always be adjusted so the 'big-big' combination
> will work, even if you don't plan to use it. That way the above
> scenario will never arise. Note that more expensive parts than the
> chain may be the ones that break if this guideline is ignored.

Although I agree, many simply don't adhere to this.

Case in point: experienced MTB racer A rides with a short chain to minimize
slap and to enhance shifting. He or she lets barney B ride it, forgetting
to tell him or her that the chain is short. Rider B shifts into a bad
combination... it doesn't go and continues to mash the pedals to "get it to
shift," eventually grinding things to a halt.

It happens more often than you think.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote:

>>If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
>>the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
>>harmless.
>
Phil, Squid-in-Training replied:
>
> Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
> possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
> to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

No that can't happen unless the chain is too short.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html#chain

Sheldon "Not A Problem" Brown
+---------------------------------------------------------+
| Man does not live by words alone, |
| despite the fact that sometimes he has to eat them. |
| --Adlai Stevenson |
+---------------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Peter]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

> "Peter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
>>>>the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
>>>>harmless.
>>>
>>>
>>>Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
>>>possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is
>>>impossible to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the
>>>chain.
>>>
>>
>>The chain length should always be adjusted so the 'big-big' combination
>>will work, even if you don't plan to use it. That way the above
>>scenario will never arise. Note that more expensive parts than the
>>chain may be the ones that break if this guideline is ignored.
>
>
> Although I agree, many simply don't adhere to this.
>
> Case in point: experienced MTB racer A rides with a short chain to minimize
> slap and to enhance shifting. He or she lets barney B ride it, forgetting
> to tell him or her that the chain is short. Rider B shifts into a bad
> combination... it doesn't go and continues to mash the pedals to "get it to
> shift," eventually grinding things to a halt.
>
> It happens more often than you think.

You have no idea how often I think this happens.
Doesn't change the fact that rider A was being stupid in making the
chain too short for his geartrain. I've actually never seen the
chain break in this situation, but I have seen derailers (SB spelling)
torn apart and a dropout twisted.

 

[Werehatrack]

On 7 Feb 2005 13:08:56 -0800, [email protected] may have said:

>Hello All,
>
>I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
>rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur).

Unless there has been something odd going on when I wasn't watching.
rear ders don't give a flop whether the front is a dual or a triple.
All that matters is whether the der has enough total take-up capacity
in the cage for the extreme combinations of sprockets in the setup.
Most road-oriented rear ders have less capability in this area than
the typical mtb-oriented der, but most road bikes don't have the range
of gearing of the typical mtb, either. In most cases, however, you
can upgrade the front to a triple without doing anything about the
rear.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[Paul Kopit]

On 7 Feb 2005 13:08:56 -0800, [email protected] wrote:

>Hello All,
>
>I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
>rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
>the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
>be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
>can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
>thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
>shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?
>
If you just need a long cage rear derailleur to replace your std. cage
Veloce, than that's all you need. Six thousand miles on your shifters
is just wearing in and you don't need to match the shift disk, change
shifters, or do anything else.

 

[A Muzi]

[email protected] wrote:
> I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current triple
> rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change to
> the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would it
> be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters, or
> can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so I am
> thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
> shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

Probably.
If they don't stay in low gear or feel 'soft' in shifting, a
spring set is only $10.
All the parts inside the two Ergos are identical so there is
zero actual shifting difference when new/rebuilt.


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks Andrew. What about the difference in the shifter cam between
the pre-2001 and post-2001 shifter models? If I use the pre-2001 cam
with the post-2001 derailleur, will I really notice a difference?

A Muzi wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current
triple
> > rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change
to
> > the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would
it
> > be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters,
or
> > can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so
I am
> > thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
> > shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?
>
> Probably.
> If they don't stay in low gear or feel 'soft' in shifting, a
> spring set is only $10.
> All the parts inside the two Ergos are identical so there is
> zero actual shifting difference when new/rebuilt.
>
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> www.yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[rmhcyclist]

I am hoping the improvements to the current Centaur derailleur over the
2000 Veloce will outweigh any degradation from not using the matching
shifter cam. Sound right?

On another note, will derailleur performance be effected by using a
long cage, or is the difference purely the chain capacity?

 

[[email protected]]

rmhcyclist wrote:
> I am hoping the improvements to the current Centaur derailleur over
the
> 2000 Veloce will outweigh any degradation from not using the matching
> shifter cam. Sound right?

No. There have been no performance improvements in rear derailleurs
from at least the mid 1990s until now. They all work just fine. The
only difference is weight, cage length, and whether it is a Shimano or
Campagnolo brand for movement of the parallelagram. Since you are
considering going from 2000 Veloce to 2004 Centaur, the only reason for
this is to get a longer cage and take up the extra chain when using a
triple. If you need this chain wrap, then make the change.

The long and medium cage rear derailleurs are rated as being able to
clear a larger rear cog but I can clear a 28 cog with my short cage
1998 Chorus rear derailleur so I am pretty sure you can clear a 29 cog
with current or 2000 Veloce short cage rear derailleurs. Clearing a
bigger cog in back is not a reason to change your Veloce short cage
rear derailleur for a Centaur long or medium cage rear derailleur.


>
> On another note, will derailleur performance be effected by using a
> long cage, or is the difference purely the chain capacity?

No. I've never noticed any shifting difference between short or long
or medium cage rear derailleurs. Some folks can probably tell the
difference. These folks can also tell what material their seatpost is
made of. Chain wrap capacity, weight, and for Shimano MTB long cage
rear derailleurs, the ability to clear larger cogs, are the differences
between short and long or medium cage rear derailleurs.

Keep in mind with Campagnolo rear derailleurs, you have a choice of
short, medium, and long cages. The short is obvious. The medium cage
looks long. But the long is even longer. I have the 2002/2003 Centaur
medium cage rear derailleur. It is able to handle the chain wrap on a
52-42-26 crankset with 13-28 rear cassette. A 24 tooth front inner
chainring produces more chain droop than I can tolerate. So if you are
going to get a long cage Campagnolo rear derailleur, I would recommend
getting the official "long" cage model and not the medium length. You
have more options with the official "long" cage model. Over on the
Campagnolo website it lists the cage length of the short, medium, and
long cage derailleurs. Good to know so you can officially measure the
derailleur and tell if it is medium or long.

 

[Werehatrack]

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:42:22 GMT, "Phil, Squid-in-Training"
<[email protected]> may have said:

>> If you use a short cage rear derailer and accidentally shift onto one of
>> the inappropriate combinations, the chain will droop, but this is
>> harmless.
>
>Or the chain will be pedaled taut as the derailleur shifts into big-big,
>possibly snapping the chain or rendering it in a position that is impossible
>to shift out of without removing the crank or breaking the chain.

Most dropouts have enough angle to allow the wheel to be removed even
then...and this is why, when changing the gearing, one checks the
chain length at both extremes.

Half an ounce of QC saves a ton of embarassment.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

 

[A Muzi]

>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>I want to upgrade my 2000 Veloce rear derailleur to a current
> triple
>>>rear derailleur (most likely a Centaur). I know there was a change
> to
>>>the geometry of the rear derailleurs between 2000 and 2001. Would
> it
>>>be best to also upgrade my Ergopower shifters to current shifters,
> or
>>>can I use my old shifters? The shifters have a over 6000 miles so
> I am
>>>thinking to just get the new Centaur derailleur and the new Centaur
>>>shifters. Am I wasting my money on a new set of shifters?

> A Muzi wrote:
>>Probably.
>>If they don't stay in low gear or feel 'soft' in shifting, a
>>spring set is only $10.
>>All the parts inside the two Ergos are identical so there is
>>zero actual shifting difference when new/rebuilt.

[email protected] wrote:
> Thanks Andrew. What about the difference in the shifter
cam between
> the pre-2001 and post-2001 shifter models? If I use the
pre-2001 cam
> with the post-2001 derailleur, will I really notice a
difference?

It's a minor variance which some riders notice, and most
don't. Ride it first before overreacting. $34.95 for a new
shift ring ('cam') if required.

BTW yagotta wonder what Campagnolo was thinking on that one.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[rmhcyclist]

Yes! That has been causing me alot of frustration as I make decisions
about what I need.

 

[Paul Kopit]

On 8 Feb 2005 10:48:21 -0800, "rmhcyclist" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I am hoping the improvements to the current Centaur derailleur over the
>2000 Veloce will outweigh any degradation from not using the matching
>shifter cam. Sound right?
>
>On another note, will derailleur performance be effected by using a
>long cage, or is the difference purely the chain capacity?

Usually the derailleurs aren't the problem. Alignment of the
derailleur hangar is frequently a culprit in erratic shifting. New,
quality housing and cables also makes a lot of difference.

I notice no difference in mismatches of Campy derailleurs and various
shifters. One bicycle, uses a Record 8 rear derailleur with Veloce 10
shifters and is perfect shifting a 13/29 cassette. My tandem is 1999
Daytona 9 with a Centaur 2003 long cage rear derailleur shifting
Shimano 9 and it's fine.