Upgrades to entry level MTBs and Comfort Bikes

[artemidorus]

May I utter some heresy? I've picked up Amoeba Scud drop bars and CF ( ) Scud stem from the City Bike Depot sale for $135. Bar tape from ProBikeKit for ~$10. "Old" 105 9spd shifters from my road bike, slightly scratched from a crash, free. All with the intention of turning my 7spd 1992 cromo steel, rigid-fork "MTB" into a full 559mm-wheel tourer. But I can't bring myself to take the flat bar off! I'm too fond of the bike as it is.
What I have done, however, is to fit a 9spd rear shifter, 9spd chain, narrow-type RD jockey wheels and 8 sprockets from a 9spd road cassette to make an 8spd bike, a la Sheldon Brown. (Faithful thumbshifters are finally gone). Beaver Tail mudguards. New v-brake on the front to replace the narrow-profile centre-pull cantilever. 1.3 Contact Sport tyres.
Now it goes like a dream, although (heresy) not quite like my road bike. Great for loads and the wet. I'm just trying to find all the bolts and brackets for my old Low-rider front rack, and I'll have the perfect commuting cargo beast.

 

[BikeBloke]

I can't bring myself to take the flat bar off! I'm too fond of the bike as it is.

A month ago, I thought I was in the market for a drop-bar racebike, until...

...I realised that the flat bar & rapid fire shifters suit me better.

I have no regrets that I resisted the temptation of fashion!

 

[gclark8]

All with the intention of turning my 7spd 1992 cromo steel, rigid-fork "MTB" into a full 559mm-wheel tourer.

This was one of the decisions I made with the Upland, to stay with 7, go for 8 of 9 or go full 9.

I bought a new RM30-8 Freehub Body from Shimano to do the 7 to 8/9 conversion, however after finding the Sunrace Road Cassette in 7 speed 11-24, I decided to stay with 7 speed to keep the price down and see how she goes on it for a bit. No complaints so far.

 

[artemidorus]

This was one of the decisions I made with the Upland, to stay with 7, go for 8 of 9 or go full 9.

I bought a new RM30-8 Freehub Body from Shimano to do the 7 to 8/9 conversion, however after finding the Sunrace Road Cassette in 7 speed 11-24, I decided to stay with 7 speed to keep the price down and see how she goes on it for a bit. No complaints so far.

My 7spd chain, 7spd cassette, upper jockey wheel and middle chainring were fried anyway, so I was looking at expense one way or the other. I actually had bought cassette and chain as spares for my road bike, and had bought a shifter set to put the front shifter on my partner's bike, so I had all the stuff sitting around anyway. Damned if I wanted to pay top dollar for new, mid-range 7spd stuff.
I had bought a used 9spd LX hub to build a 9spd wheel, but I'm in no hurry to do that now, as the 8spd set-up works beautifully. When my 14 year old deore dx hub finally dies (it's showing no sign of imminent demise), I'll build a new 9spd wheel.

 

[artemidorus]

A month ago, I thought I was in the market for a drop-bar racebike, until...

...I realised that the flat bar & rapid fire shifters suit me better.

I have no regrets that I resisted the temptation of fashion!

Drop bars ain't fashion, they're great. I'd have no qualms about giving the flat bars the chop if this were a new bike (not that you can buy such a bike very easily these days). I'm just ridiculously sentimental about my old bike. It was my first adult bike.

 

[Little Jackie]

To have drops or flats is not necessarily about fashion. I have found that there is a toll to my shoulders and neck riding the drop bars (I am not as young as I used to be), though I have got George to put a stem extension in and raise them somewhat. Haven't had a good ride since then, but my shoulders were already aching the day I test rode it and they didn't feel any worse!

 

[eldavo]

Hi all, a newbie to the forum here, my first post.
I just bought a pair of new Uplands in matt black, a 19" for myself and 17" for the gf on my birthday, before the long weekend.
I have a Giant Sedona AL (2003) I was considering servicing/maintaining/11-24 rear cassette, but decided for the time and money I'd get a new bike at the same time as the gf was getting hers.

I find the 12 rear 48 front top gears tall enough for my current unfitness compared to the 14 rear 48 front of the Sedona. After reading this thread and other talk, I decided to try slick 1.5" width rim/tyres over the 1.95" stock since I will be cycling 50-60km daily (or as frequent as is convenient) commute. I figure I have the dirt tyres/tubes on the Sedona I can fit for any dirt trails with other friends.

The following have made their way onto the Upland
- I put the suspension seat from the Sedona
- the century profile touring bar I had on the Iguana/Sedona vertically instead of horizontal and without elbow/forearm pads, to provide a cruisy comfort upright grab position until I can ride fast enough for fancy-no-hands again.
- the Cateye Velo basic trip computer from the Sedona will go onto the Upland when I get some replacement baby zip ties
- the chromed steel rack now rusty my Dad used since the mid 80's on his Repco Trekker racer style bike which I've used on Iguana/Sedona
- the fluoro green saddle bags and basic repair kits he also had from same era on the rear rack
- the giant bottle cage and compact pump mount from Sedona
- the Sedona rear axle (Joytech brand) slightly longer than the Upland's Shimano axle, which wasn't long enough with the rack mounts taking up length.
- rear flasher k-mart origin pinched from my sister's unusd k-mart red-rock brand MTB (my dad's k-mart one I used have lost the mount)
- front cateye halogen 4xAA with 6xD cell bottle cage booster pack from my Iguana era, will be retired when I source a cheap light duty LED with flash modes.
- paid for tyre liners at assembly (not hoping to find out if they are actually in there or not!)

The bars aren't as high and comfortable reach as the Sedona, I thought this would be a problem, but with the unicorn-like touring bar positioned upright it gives me the best of both worlds, lower and look down at the ground pedalling, or upright relaxed enjoy the view.

I remember the reason I got the Sedona was the Iguana's MTB ergonomics meant a sore back of neck from having shoulders down, but head tilted up maximum to see ahead while supporting torso on bars. I still find that now in the 2hrs I've ridden the Upland, which is when I sit up comfy and go for the high middle bar. Great when the wind is at your back, more comfort AND speed

So far this upgrade hasn't cost me much, using parts from the Sedona, tyres swapped at build, accessories from past bikes, leaving the cost of the Upland and tyre inserts (~$320). I will fit the Upland bits (seat, axle) to the Sedona to have a comfort MTB ready to go for rarer dirt trail rides, adjustable bar to 50 degree upright position to take in the bush scenery.

 

[eldavo]

Hi all, a newbie to the forum here, my first post.
I just bought a pair of new Uplands in matt black, a 19" for myself and 17" for the gf on my birthday, before the long weekend.
I have a Giant Sedona AL (2003) I was considering servicing/maintaining/11-24 rear cassette, but decided for the time and money I'd get a new bike at the same time as the gf was getting hers.

I find the 12 rear 48 front top gears tall enough for my current unfitness compared to the 14 rear 48 front of the Sedona. After reading this thread and other talk, I decided to try slick 1.5" width rim/tyres over the 1.95" stock since I will be cycling 50-60km daily (or as frequent as is convenient) commute. I figure I have the dirt tyres/tubes on the Sedona I can fit for any dirt trails with other friends.

The following have made their way onto the Upland
- I put the suspension seat from the Sedona
- the century profile touring bar I had on the Iguana/Sedona vertically instead of horizontal and without elbow/forearm pads, to provide a cruisy comfort upright grab position until I can ride fast enough for fancy-no-hands again.
- the Cateye Velo basic trip computer from the Sedona will go onto the Upland when I get some replacement baby zip ties
- the chromed steel rack now rusty my Dad used since the mid 80's on his Repco Trekker racer style bike which I've used on Iguana/Sedona
- the fluoro green saddle bags and basic repair kits he also had from same era on the rear rack
- the giant bottle cage and compact pump mount from Sedona
- the Sedona rear axle (Joytech brand) slightly longer than the Upland's Shimano axle, which wasn't long enough with the rack mounts taking up length.
- rear flasher k-mart origin pinched from my sister's unusd k-mart red-rock brand MTB (my dad's k-mart one I used have lost the mount)
- front cateye halogen 4xAA with 6xD cell bottle cage booster pack from my Iguana era, will be retired when I source a cheap light duty LED with flash modes.
- paid for tyre liners at assembly (not hoping to find out if they are actually in there or not!)

The bars aren't as high and comfortable reach as the Sedona, I thought this would be a problem, but with the unicorn-like touring bar positioned upright it gives me the best of both worlds, lower and look down at the ground pedalling, or upright relaxed enjoy the view.

I remember the reason I got the Sedona was the Iguana's MTB ergonomics meant a sore back of neck from having shoulders down, but head tilted up maximum to see ahead while supporting torso on bars. I still find that now in the 2hrs I've ridden the Upland, which is when I sit up comfy and go for the high middle bar. Great when the wind is at your back, more comfort AND speed

So far this upgrade hasn't cost me much, using parts from the Sedona, tyres swapped at build, accessories from past bikes, leaving the cost of the Upland and tyre inserts (~$320). I will fit the Upland bits (seat, axle) to the Sedona to have a comfort MTB ready to go for rarer dirt trail rides, adjustable bar to 50 degree upright position to take in the bush scenery.

 

[gclark8]

Well done Davo!

It is nice to see someone else appreciates the value of the Upland as a base bike. Post a pix if you have a camera.

 

[Little Jackie]

The bars aren't as high and comfortable reach as the Sedona, I thought this would be a problem, but with the unicorn-like touring bar positioned upright it gives me the best of both worlds, lower and look down at the ground pedalling, or upright relaxed enjoy the view.

You could always see if any bike shop has a reject adjustable stem. I did!

I went for a very leisurely ride on Sunday, and found the Upland excellent, I was surprised at the comfort even though it has no suspension forks. Slightly sore rear end from not having ridden for a little while, but otherwise definitely more comfortable than my road bike!

 

[anthonyg]

OK I have to ask, why have you pushed the seat so far forward?

I mean it looks like a nice setup paticuarly since I read that you fitted 150 mm cranks but that seat looks too far forward to me. Is the seat that far forward to acheive KOPS or did you just think that it would be better that far forward?

I have a paticular interest in fit for short people being 5' 1" myself and I have a custom 650c road bike with 140 mm cranks, a VERY short reach(horizontal distance from Bottom Bracket to centre of head tube), much shorter than your Giant and I have a whopping 70 mm of saddle setback. This puts the weight on my rear end and not my arms/shoulders and it is SOO much better than a small factory bike.

See one of the issues I have with factory XS bikes is that they fudge things with steep seat tube angles inorder to compensate for the comprimises they are making with such bikes and the BIG trouble with this is that the rider is placed too far forward with too much weigh on their hands/shoulders which makes these bikes VERY uncomfortable. I realise you are trying your best but I feel you have made things worse by pushing the seat so far forward and it would be MUCH more comfortable to move the seat back and fit a shorter stem to compensate.

Here's a good article relevent to the topic from Sheldon Brown, http://sheldonbrown.com/frame-sizing.html

Regards, Anthony

 

[gclark8]

The seat is forward and I fitted a longer adjustable stem, 100mm, to keep some weight over the front wheel and enable Jackie to be in the middle of the bike, the XS frame is really a size too big. She had a 24" Apollo Panther boys bike for 6 months, that fitted a little better but was too difficult for her to lift on and off the car.

Bike fit, KOPS is ignored here in place of comfort as it is only used for short rides. Jackie is used to riding at a high cadence so a forward, almost "Tri-position", is OK for her. Her Felt F100-650c road bike has a 76 degree seatpost, this bike is used for longer rides.

Next time I see her with the bike I will try to take a Photo of her riding the bike.

 

[anthonyg]

George,

If you look at an average male road rider then more of their weight is over the rear wheel than the front and this is normal. Deliberately trying to put more weight on the front wheel isn't required and it doesn't help handling at ALL. Honestly handling improves with more weight on the rear wheel and having too much weight on the front wheel is a big problem for small riders.

Regarding KOPS (knee over pedal spindle), this is about comfort just as much as performance. Sitting back at KOPS is far more comfortable than being infront of KOPS which places too much weight on your hands/shoulders. Time Trialists sit infront of KOPS because when they're in a low aerodynamic tuck moving forward helps to open up their hip angles and stops them from having their knees touch their stomachs at the top of each upstroke. It's good for short hard efforts in an aerodynamic tuck but they NEED to support their weight on their lower arms with TT bars. Standard road/flatbars just put TOO much weight on their hands/wrists.

Anyway I strongly reccomend that you move her riding position rearwards. Its way too far forward.

Regards, Anthony

 

[anthonyg]

OK something I've forgoten to mention. Another reason that bike manufacturers place small riders so far forward is that sitting forward helps open the hip angles for riders who are using cranks that are too long for them. You mentioned that you've fitted 150 mm cranks to this bike so its no longer an issue that say using 165-170 mm cranks would be. Deffinitely try placing her back at KOPS.

EDIT: (Again) Also my beater/commuter bike is a cheap 24" Mtn bike. I don't fit on 26" Mtn or 700c road bikes myself. I might build a very custom tourer with 26" wheels in the future but it will be MUCH shorter than anything you can currently buy from a bike manufacturer with 26" wheels.

Regards, Anthony

 

[Little Jackie]

Anthony

Whilst I have read your posts with interest, I think that you would be better to open another topic regarding bike fit for smaller people than continue in this one which is focussing on upgrades to entry level MTBs.

Having said that I will endeavour to address some of your points remembering that I don't have all the technical knowledge. You need to bear in mind that I am 52, 5' and of slight build, and my requirements would therefore be very different from yours as you are clearly much younger.

My47cm Felt Road bike has drop bars and suits me perfectly. I have sufficient weight over the front wheek to give stability when climbing hills. I have elevated the bars slightly and fitted 100ml adjustable stem. This has given me a much more comfortable riding position as I was getting a very sore neck and shoulders before as I have had previous injuries.

I use my MTB for slow to moderate recreational riding on rough paths, but like the option to put it through its paces. With the XS Upland, we have simply replicated much of the comfortable geometry. It now rides much like a flat bar road bike (not available in my size in Australia), but is much more comfortable than my road bike. We are considering, however, kicking the seat slightly farther back and fitting a 90ml stem instead of the 100ml as I have chosen to have the handle bars lower. You must remember, Anthony, that the top tube length is still slightly too long for me and I do need the stability in the front end being of light weight. Prior to Giant releasing this model in XS there was no adult bike available in my size! (the effective size of an XS Sedona with suspension forks was 17")

I might add that all of these modifications are being run by our LBS whose focus is triathlons. They also realise my limitations. The project is still open to improvement as I have only had one decent ride on it so far, but went off road on a gravel path with excellent results. I came home with no aches and pains which considering I haven't ridden for approx a month and it had been a week since I went swimming is not bad!

I would suggest that you go back to the photos and study them carefully and you will see that the bike is very well proportioned.

 

[artemidorus]

Clearly, what works is what works, but I have to say that I'm with Anthony on this one - I'd reverse the seat clamp and use a much shorter stem for the generic short person with bike fit problems involving sore wrists/hands/shoulders/back. That's how I've set up my partner on her FB road bike - I've slid the seat all the way aft and installed the 60mm highrise BBB stem. She feels that it's now much more comfortable.

 

[eldavo]

I went for a very leisurely ride on Sunday, and found the Upland excellent, I was surprised at the comfort even though it has no suspension forks. Slightly sore rear end from not having ridden for a little while, but otherwise definitely more comfortable than my road bike!

I specifically was looking for non-suspension mountain/comfort bikes. To get one with suspension lockout forks now means $6-700+, added cost I don't need and usually others like disc brakes which I also don't want.

I find it odd that they market non adjustable entry level forks as "taking the sting out of the pavement" while giving solid seat posts and small hard saddles. I think they're a cheap gimmick/fad.

My Giant Iguana SE 10 years ago had Rox Shocks with pre-load adjustment, but with no lockout and on the firmest selection, I would still lose power up hills pumping through the suspension forks instead of through the pedals.

Bits on the Iguana which the Upland could do with are grippy steel pedals with regular shoe toe cage/strap, and maybe bull horn bars which I think open the upper body up more for pumping up those steep ******* hills.

 

[anthonyg]

Little Jackie,

If you like the way the bike fits then that's fine. It's just from a public information point of view on a public board I wanted to question it. I've riden a number of bikes that were too big for me over the years including a custom road bike and I used to ride them long distances but since going through a learning/design proccess and then building my curent bike the difference is like night and day.

To cut a long story short I went for proportionaly correct crank length, for me that's 140 mm according to http://www.cranklength.info and enough saddle setback to acheive KOPS (knee over pedal spindle). For me that's 70 mm of saddle setback!

OK your bike started out well with 150 mm cranks but then your saddle went the wrong way. Maybe you don't need 70 mm of setback like me but you realy don't need to be infront of the BB which your bike apears to be. You could try things out for yourself if you want, I realy think that you would be MUCH more comfortable if you moved the seat rearward.

For the record I'm not that much younger than you at 42 years.

Regards, Anthony

 

[Little Jackie]

Little Jackie,

If you like the way the bike fits then that's fine. It's just from a public information point of view on a public board I wanted to question it. I've riden a number of bikes that were too big for me over the years including a custom road bike and I used to ride them long distances but since going through a learning/design proccess and then building my curent bike the difference is like night and day.

To cut a long story short I went for proportionaly correct crank length, for me that's 140 mm according to http://www.cranklength.info and enough saddle setback to acheive KOPS (knee over pedal spindle). For me that's 70 mm of saddle setback!

OK your bike started out well with 150 mm cranks but then your saddle went the wrong way. Maybe you don't need 70 mm of setback like me but you realy don't need to be infront of the BB which your bike apears to be. You could try things out for yourself if you want, I realy think that you would be MUCH more comfortable if you moved the seat rearward.

For the record I'm not that much younger than you at 42 years.

Regards, Anthony

You have missed the point, Anthony. This topic is not about bike fit. It is about upgrades to entry level MTBs for people who don't want to spend too much money!

I actually owned a 24" MTB prior to this one, but it is next to impossible to get decent tyres and we couldn't find any rigid forks. Also the bike was slightly too small and far too heavy. The Upland is more comfortable as the suspension forks were not very good. I also needed a bike that I could lend to friends if necessary.

10 years is a lot, I have noticed a distinct change in my body the last 2 years!

 

[eldavo]

I stopped by Cyclerama on Charles St. for the first time today.

They had plain black riser handle bars for $15 which I thought was cheap enough to try on the gf's bike. If it's not enough rise for comfort, I'll use it on mine, since I have the TT bar vertically for real upright comfort.