Upgrading an old Cannondale - need advice



jjf12cu

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Jun 20, 2004
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I recently began cycling when I acquired my father's old Cannondale. He was a semi-serious cyclist in his hey-day until he fell 10 or 12 years ago, going around a corner, on some gravel, landing squarely on his hip, breaking it, which ultimately required a plate and pin, etc.

Anyway, the bike is a Cannondale which, from what he tells me, was a sort of top-of-the line bike at the time, with all sorts of customized gear. From what I understand, it's about 15 years old, although I can't tell the model number or its exact year. I've emailed Cannondale with the S/N to try to find out, but have not heard from them yet. While the name "Cannondale" appears on either side of the top tube, no other markings are on the frame - as the "Cannondale"markings are fading, it's possible that there was a model number that has faded. Anyway, I think the frame is probably aluminum, but I'm not really sure - is there an easy way to tell?

Anyway, the bike was sitting in a dry shed for probably ten years. It was in pretty good shape and I have been riding it for a couple months without any major problems. Yesterday, though, the back tire blew out, I think because it's dry rotted. Same thing with the front. So I'm ordering some new tires and new innertubes. Since I can't ride the bike now, I decided to take it apart and look at everything last night. Despite the fact that it rode OK (it was a little noisy, not extremely smooth, etc., but still comfortable and efficient), as I took the gear apart, there was lots of obvious wear, both from my father's use of the bike and probably just from age. For instance, when I took the fork out, there is some rust inside the head tube (does this mean the bike is steel? - it seems pretty light, but who knows).

So, long story short, I'd like to buy some new component parts, probably keep a few parts, but mostly just keep the frame and build from there. Because the bike is older, though, and thus the standards used are different than modern standards, I'm curious about both what is possible, in terms of updating, and what is preferable.

First, the bike has 27" wheels, not 700cc's. It's got a threaded fork. Is it possible to replace the fork with a newer (probably threadless) carbon fork if I maintain the 27" wheels? If I wanted to upgrade both the fork and the wheels, is it possible to keep the frame and use 700cc's (giving me, of course, far more tire options, etc.)? Is there any reason it would be preferable to buy new wheels? Though the tires were dry rotted, the wheels actually seem to be in pretty good shape. There's a sticker on them that says "Wobler. Modele 58. Super Champion. Made in France."

Second, will a nonthreaded fork work here if the bike originally came with a threaded fork? Would I need to install a threadless headset, and is that even possible? I'd also obviously need a threadless stem (the original stem is like an upside down "L", and threaded). The tube of the original fork seems to have a 1" diameter, which current forks also seem to have, so it seems like it would be possible to me.

Finally, I'd like to upgade the whole drivetrain. I've been reading about a number of different systems and the Shimano Dura-Ace 7800 10 Speed sure looks nice. Is this overkill though? At $1200+ for the main components (crankset, cassette, brakes, shifters/levers, and pedals, I believe), is this akin to putting a Porche engine in a Honda Civic? Can anyone possibly suggest a nice drive train group that would be good for someone who is relatively new to cycling but interested in becoming more serious about it, increasing training times, distances, etc.?

Also, does anyone have any general advice on upgrading my bike? I'm a little nervous as I haven't tinkered with bikes much, but I like the idea of doing it myself (as opposed to brining it to an LBS which, here in NYC, are quite expensive), and think I can probably hand it OK given internet and published resources.

Sorry for the long message, but thanks so much in advance!

-Jack
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
I recently began cycling when I acquired my father's old Cannondale. He was a semi-serious cyclist in his hey-day until he fell 10 or 12 years ago, going around a corner, on some gravel, landing squarely on his hip, breaking it, which ultimately required a plate and pin, etc.

Anyway, the bike is a Cannondale which, from what he tells me, was a sort of top-of-the line bike at the time, with all sorts of customized gear. From what I understand, it's about 15 years old, although I can't tell the model number or its exact year. I've emailed Cannondale with the S/N to try to find out, but have not heard from them yet. While the name "Cannondale" appears on either side of the top tube, no other markings are on the frame - as the "Cannondale"markings are fading, it's possible that there was a model number that has faded. Anyway, I think the frame is probably aluminum, but I'm not really sure - is there an easy way to tell?

Anyway, the bike was sitting in a dry shed for probably ten years. It was in pretty good shape and I have been riding it for a couple months without any major problems. Yesterday, though, the back tire blew out, I think because it's dry rotted. Same thing with the front. So I'm ordering some new tires and new innertubes. Since I can't ride the bike now, I decided to take it apart and look at everything last night. Despite the fact that it rode OK (it was a little noisy, not extremely smooth, etc., but still comfortable and efficient), as I took the gear apart, there was lots of obvious wear, both from my father's use of the bike and probably just from age. For instance, when I took the fork out, there is some rust inside the head tube (does this mean the bike is steel? - it seems pretty light, but who knows).

So, long story short, I'd like to buy some new component parts, probably keep a few parts, but mostly just keep the frame and build from there. Because the bike is older, though, and thus the standards used are different than modern standards, I'm curious about both what is possible, in terms of updating, and what is preferable.

First, the bike has 27" wheels, not 700cc's. It's got a threaded fork. Is it possible to replace the fork with a newer (probably threadless) carbon fork if I maintain the 27" wheels? If I wanted to upgrade both the fork and the wheels, is it possible to keep the frame and use 700cc's (giving me, of course, far more tire options, etc.)? Is there any reason it would be preferable to buy new wheels? Though the tires were dry rotted, the wheels actually seem to be in pretty good shape. There's a sticker on them that says "Wobler. Modele 58. Super Champion. Made in France."

Second, will a nonthreaded fork work here if the bike originally came with a threaded fork? Would I need to install a threadless headset, and is that even possible? I'd also obviously need a threadless stem (the original stem is like an upside down "L", and threaded). The tube of the original fork seems to have a 1" diameter, which current forks also seem to have, so it seems like it would be possible to me.

Finally, I'd like to upgade the whole drivetrain. I've been reading about a number of different systems and the Shimano Dura-Ace 7800 10 Speed sure looks nice. Is this overkill though? At $1200+ for the main components (crankset, cassette, brakes, shifters/levers, and pedals, I believe), is this akin to putting a Porche engine in a Honda Civic? Can anyone possibly suggest a nice drive train group that would be good for someone who is relatively new to cycling but interested in becoming more serious about it, increasing training times, distances, etc.?

Also, does anyone have any general advice on upgrading my bike? I'm a little nervous as I haven't tinkered with bikes much, but I like the idea of doing it myself (as opposed to brining it to an LBS which, here in NYC, are quite expensive), and think I can probably hand it OK given internet and published resources.

Sorry for the long message, but thanks so much in advance!

-Jack
You are looking at a money disposal project. You can buy a better used bike or possibly a new one for cheaper than you are contempalting with regard to 'upgrading ' an old Cdale. The frame is aluminum. The fork steerer is steel.The HS/steerer is 1". You can do a threadless HS fork by changing the HS to threadless and getting a threadless stem. You can use 700c wheels, but you will have to be able to adjust your brake pads down about 5mm. If they won't drop that far, you will need longer reach breaks.If your frame has 126mm rear dropout spacing, you can't safely stick a current 8,9, or 10 speed 130 hub in it. To do a 10 speed DA upgrade and CF fork, you are looking at throwing everything away but the frame which may be worth $50 on a good day and spending over $2000 for a DA 10 speed build kit. I think it's time for a reality check. Clean it up, replace what's broke or wore out with inexpensive stuff you can scrounge from various sources, and start saving.
 
If you're looking at getting it that much up to spec, you're better off buying a new Cannondale (or other brand modern bike that takes your fancy.) If you want to keep this old one, restore it with old/used parts from eBay or local bike shops' bins of old stuff, and use it as a commuter/beater/what have you. Sure it's a fall from grace for the frame, but a lot changes in 15 years...

On that note, so many standards have changed in that time, it'll be frightfully expensive, impossible, or both to upgrade to modern specs. Wheel sizes (700c vs 27" and any brake alignment issues therein), hub spacing (modern 9/10 speed drivetrains need a 130mm spread, and aluminium frames can't have the stays spread), headtube width (the current standard is 1 1/8" threadless), and so on.

On your groupset question a good "trooper" groupset which is high quality but still value priced is Shimano 105. It's definitely good enough for everything most people would be able to throw at it. (I'm not up to speed with Campy stuff but there would be a similar modest-but-good equivalent in their lineup too.)
 
Originally posted by rek
...... headtube width (the current standard is 1 1/8" threadless), and so on.

Not really.Bikes are still being made with 1" threaded and there is plenty of 1" threaded and threadless stuff around.
 
Wow! Thanks for the quick replies, everyone. Yeah, I guess the idea of throwing top-of-the-line parts onto a relatively worthless frame - especially when fit might be such an inherent issue - is really quite stuipd. I think I will take the approach you all mention and just try to upgrade some of the more used components with used parts off ebay or whatever and then think about buying a nice modern bike with the Dura-Ace money instead. That'll make it more of a challenge (and therefore more fun), anyway, then simply buying all new stuff. Thanks for the advice - I really appreciate it, and will continue to scour these boards.

-Jack
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
.......Anyway, the bike is a Cannondale which, from what he tells me, was a sort of top-of-the line bike at the time, with all sorts of customized gear. From what I understand, it's about 15 years old, although I can't tell the model number or its exact year. I've emailed Cannondale with the S/N to try to find out, but have not heard from them yet.....

Last time I tried contacting Cannondale, I never heard back. They used to be pretty good about it, but for starters:

From:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/vrbn-a-f.html#cannondale

Cannondale Serial number code:
first two digits are the size,
next 6 are date of manufacture,
remainder are unit number.
For instance: SN#54021787121 indicates a 54 cm frame, built on February 17, 1987, #121.
 
Originally posted by serenaslu
Last time I tried contacting Cannondale, I never heard back. They used to be pretty good about it, but for starters:

From:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/vrbn-a-f.html#cannondale

Cannondale Serial number code:
first two digits are the size,
next 6 are date of manufacture,
remainder are unit number.
For instance: SN#54021787121 indicates a 54 cm frame, built on February 17, 1987, #121.

Yeah, I read that. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such a number, only a lesser-digit number on the bottom of the frame, below the bottom bracket - the number is something like BB06650. No number on the chain stays (where I've read that they sometimes are) or anywhere else on the frame. Hrm... :( Thanks for the response!

-Jack
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
Yeah, I read that. Unfortunately, I couldn't find such a number, only a lesser-digit number on the bottom of the frame, below the bottom bracket - the number is something like BB06650. No number on the chain stays (where I've read that they sometimes are) or anywhere else on the frame. Hrm... :( Thanks for the response!

-Jack

Hmm. That is strange. Every late 80's C-frame I've seen has had it on the underside of the chainstay.
 
Anyway, the bike is a Cannondale which, from what he tells me, was a sort of top-of-the line bike at the time, with all sorts of customized gear. From what I understand, it's about 15 years old, although I can't tell the model number or its exact year. I've emailed Cannondale with the S/N to try to find out, but have not heard from them yet. While the name "Cannondale" appears on either side of the top tube, no other markings are on the frame - as the "Cannondale"markings are fading, it's possible that there was a model number that has faded. Anyway, I think the frame is probably aluminum, but I'm not really sure - is there an easy way to tell?

A better way for us to identify your bike is to post a pic or a link to a pic so that everyone can have a look at it. Most Cannondale models are easily identifiable from the type of decals, the colours, etc.

For instance, when I took the fork out, there is some rust inside the head tube (does this mean the bike is steel? - it seems pretty light, but who knows).

Most likely, the rust is from either the steel fork or threaded quill stem.

First, the bike has 27" wheels, not 700cc's. It's got a threaded fork. Is it possible to replace the fork with a newer (probably threadless) carbon fork if I maintain the 27" wheels? If I wanted to upgrade both the fork and the wheels, is it possible to keep the frame and use 700cc's (giving me, of course, far more tire options, etc.)? Is there any reason it would be preferable to buy new wheels? Though the tires were dry rotted, the wheels actually seem to be in pretty good shape. There's a sticker on them that says "Wobler. Modele 58. Super Champion. Made in France."

Chances are you may be able to fit a 700C wheel into the frame but the brake calipers will not reach the rims, unless you are willing to upgrade the calipers to long reach, stick with the existing wheels. A good 27" tire is a panarace pasella which I used for very long distances.

Again, you can upgrade the fork to a threadless fork, but you will have to get a 1" steerer and also a new threadless headset and stem.

Second, will a nonthreaded fork work here if the bike originally came with a threaded fork? Would I need to install a threadless headset, and is that even possible? I'd also obviously need a threadless stem (the original stem is like an upside down "L", and threaded). The tube of the original fork seems to have a 1" diameter, which current forks also seem to have, so it seems like it would be possible to me.

Possibble

Finally, I'd like to upgade the whole drivetrain. I've been reading about a number of different systems and the Shimano Dura-Ace 7800 10 Speed sure looks nice. Is this overkill though? At $1200+ for the main components (crankset, cassette, brakes, shifters/levers, and pedals, I believe), is this akin to putting a Porche engine in a Honda Civic? Can anyone possibly suggest a nice drive train group that would be good for someone who is relatively new to cycling but interested in becoming more serious about it, increasing training times, distances, etc.?

Also, does anyone have any general advice on upgrading my bike? I'm a little nervous as I haven't tinkered with bikes much, but I like the idea of doing it myself (as opposed to brining it to an LBS which, here in NYC, are quite expensive), and think I can probably hand it OK given internet and published resources.

Sorry for the long message, but thanks so much in advance!

-Jack [/B]

Okay, my advice is to completely strip the bike, then to clean everything, all the gunked up grease, all the rust from the parts, dirt, etc. Then polish up all the parts, and the frame. Once all parts are cleaned, polished and relubed, check that they all work properly.

It would be best to replace the chain, cogs, headset, bottom bracket, rim tape, bar tape, brake blocks, tires and all cables. All these would be easy to find and replace.

Don't forget to repack the hubs, and retrue the wheel. Once all is done, you will have a bike that runs smooth again and look almost like new.

Then once you are hooked, get a new bike.

Ciao,
Sean
 
Originally posted by buffedupboy Okay, my advice is to completely strip the bike, then to clean everything, all the gunked up grease, all the rust from the parts, dirt, etc. Then polish up all the parts, and the frame. Once all parts are cleaned, polished and relubed, check that they all work properly.

I actually sat down for several hours last night with a Guiness, a bottle of Pedro's degreaser/cleaner, a mop bucket, and a couple old T-shirts, and did just that. Unfortunately, because I don't have the proper tools, I wasn't able to take the chain completely off the frame or to take the chainset off (although I could get 2 of the 3 cogs off).

A better way for us to identify your bike is to post a pic or a link to a pic so that everyone can have a look at it. Most Cannondale models are easily identifiable from the type of decals, the colours, etc.


Yes, I thought about that when I first posted but was just being lazy. Now that (almost) everything's off the frame now, though, I took a few pictures. I tried to take a few close-ups where there are markings. Click the link below for 5 pictures:

~jjf253


(is there any way to embed images directly in the post?)

One thing that jumped out at me is that the cogs are not even close to circular. It's hard to see in the picture, but they are actually quite oval. Is this by design? when I look at pictures of cranksets, they seem to be circular...

Anyway, if it helps in identifying the bike in terms of the approximate year, the crankset is Shimango Biopace 50/44/28.


It would be best to replace the chain, cogs, headset, bottom bracket, rim tape, bar tape, brake blocks, tires and all cables. All these would be easy to find and replace.

I found what looks like a nice Shimango 105 group on ebay. I don't know what the rule about posting links is here, but if it's not allowed, please let me know and I'll edit the post. Anyway, the set is here. (ebay item #3683413947).

Does this set look like it would be a decent choice for me? How much should I be willing to pay for such a group? I looked at completed listings and saw a few similar items selling for about $200, although there was nothing that was really exactly the same.

Don't forget to repack the hubs, and retrue the wheel. Once all is done, you will have a bike that runs smooth again and look almost like new.

Hm. Not sure what repacking the hubs or retruing the wheel involves, but I'm sure I can figure it out...

Then once you are hooked, get a new bike.

Yeah, that looks like the plan. This seems like it will actually be a great learning experience for me and I'm really enjoying the idea of rebuilding this into something that will serve my needs for now while I'm still relativley new to cycling. Hopefully as I train more and become more serious, and as I read more about cycling (for instance on these boards!), gear, etc., I'll have a better idea of what to get when I but a new bike. I'm in no rush. Actually, I just graduated law school and am studying for the bar now, so I begin working at a firm in September, before which I can't really afford to buy a nice new bike anyway!

Sean, and everyone else that has posted - thanks so much for the help. I really appreciate it. It's nice to have such a friendly and willingly helpful community to turn to as a very novice at this...

Thanks!
Jack
 
Originally posted by serenaslu
Hmm. That is strange. Every late 80's C-frame I've seen has had it on the underside of the chainstay.

Yeah, I double checked and there's nothing on the chainstays but paint. Maybe the bike is a little younger? Early 90's?
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
I actually sat down for several hours last night with a Guiness, a bottle of Pedro's degreaser/cleaner, a mop bucket, and a couple old T-shirts, and did just that. Unfortunately, because I don't have the proper tools, I wasn't able to take the chain completely off the frame or to take the chainset off (although I could get 2 of the 3 cogs off).



Yes, I thought about that when I first posted but was just being lazy. Now that (almost) everything's off the frame now, though, I took a few pictures. I tried to take a few close-ups where there are markings. Click the link below for 5 pictures:

~jjf253


(is there any way to embed images directly in the post?)

One thing that jumped out at me is that the cogs are not even close to circular. It's hard to see in the picture, but they are actually quite oval. Is this by design? when I look at pictures of cranksets, they seem to be circular...

Anyway, if it helps in identifying the bike in terms of the approximate year, the crankset is Shimango Biopace 50/44/28.




I found what looks like a nice Shimango 105 group on ebay. I don't know what the rule about posting links is here, but if it's not allowed, please let me know and I'll edit the post. Anyway, the set is here. (ebay item #3683413947).

Does this set look like it would be a decent choice for me? How much should I be willing to pay for such a group? I looked at completed listings and saw a few similar items selling for about $200, although there was nothing that was really exactly the same.



Hm. Not sure what repacking the hubs or retruing the wheel involves, but I'm sure I can figure it out...



Yeah, that looks like the plan. This seems like it will actually be a great learning experience for me and I'm really enjoying the idea of rebuilding this into something that will serve my needs for now while I'm still relativley new to cycling. Hopefully as I train more and become more serious, and as I read more about cycling (for instance on these boards!), gear, etc., I'll have a better idea of what to get when I but a new bike. I'm in no rush. Actually, I just graduated law school and am studying for the bar now, so I begin working at a firm in September, before which I can't really afford to buy a nice new bike anyway!

Sean, and everyone else that has posted - thanks so much for the help. I really appreciate it. It's nice to have such a friendly and willingly helpful community to turn to as a very novice at this...

Thanks!
Jack
There is plenty of info on repair and maintnance a t www.parktool.com in the repair section.Sheldon Brown at www. harriscyclery.com also has some good stuff.Ya probably oughta read what's in the thread: 7 speed drivetrain upgrade by Billy1974:Cdale frame ,many similar issues. The 'non circular' chainrings are shimano biopace, and the design theory was they helped pedaling effeciency.The idea did not fly, even tho the concept was copied by a few other makers. You will be alot better off not trying to stick current 8,9, or 10 speed stuff onto that old frame unless it has at least 128mm rear dropout spacing.
 
Originally posted by boudreaux
There is plenty of info on repair and maintnance a t www.parktool.com in the repair section.Sheldon Brown at www. harriscyclery.com also has some good stuff.Ya probably oughta read what's in the thread: 7 speed drivetrain upgrade by Billy1974:Cdale frame ,many similar issues. The 'non circular' chainrings are shimano biopace, and the design theory was they helped pedaling effeciency.The idea did not fly, even tho the concept was copied by a few other makers. You will be alot better off not trying to stick current 8,9, or 10 speed stuff onto that old frame unless it has at least 128mm rear dropout spacing.

Hi Boudreaux -

I measured and the drop space is exactly 128mm. Also, the thread you pointed me to advises that a 9 speed cassette can fit into a sub-130mm drop space by removing one cog and one spacer. Unfortunately, the seller of that 105 set has apparently pulled it. Anyway, thanks for the advice.

Jack
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
Hi Boudreaux -

I measured and the drop space is exactly 128mm. Also, the thread you pointed me to advises that a 9 speed cassette can fit into a sub-130mm drop space by removing one cog and one spacer. Unfortunately, the seller of that 105 set has apparently pulled it. Anyway, thanks for the advice.

Jack
That 128 is a comprimise spacing that works wirh 126 or 130 hubs. You can just use a current 8/9, or 10 speed hub and casette with no monkeying around with the casette.
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
Hi Boudreaux -

I measured and the drop space is exactly 128mm. Also, the thread you pointed me to advises that a 9 speed cassette can fit into a sub-130mm drop space by removing one cog and one spacer. Unfortunately, the seller of that 105 set has apparently pulled it. Anyway, thanks for the advice.

Jack
That 128 is a comprimise spacing that works wirh 126 or 130 hubs. You can just use a current 8/9, or 10 speed hub and casette with no monkeying around with the casette.
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
Hi Boudreaux -

I measured and the drop space is exactly 128mm. Also, the thread you pointed me to advises that a 9 speed cassette can fit into a sub-130mm drop space by removing one cog and one spacer. Unfortunately, the seller of that 105 set has apparently pulled it. Anyway, thanks for the advice.

Jack
That 128 is a comprimise spacing that works wirh 126 or 130 hubs. You can just use a current 8/9, or 10 speed hub and casette with no monkeying around with the casette.
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
Yes, I thought about that when I first posted but was just being lazy. Now that (almost) everything's off the frame now, though, I took a few pictures. I tried to take a few close-ups where there are markings. Click the link below for 5 pictures:

~jjf253

Out of curiosity - has anyone been able to look at these pictures (just click the url above) and determine what model or roughly what year this Cannondale is?

Thanks!
Jack
 
Originally posted by jjf12cu
Out of curiosity - has anyone been able to look at these pictures (just click the url above) and determine what model or roughly what year this Cannondale is?

Thanks!
Jack
I have doubts about it being 15 years old.The dropouts/setastay don't appear to be the 'old style' cantilevered type. If it's got a replaceable derailer hanger, then it's definately newer.The head badge looks 'newer' compaed to older ones I've seen Older Cdales often used the same frame with different parts hung on the to create 'models'. I'm not sure some of the very early ones even had frame designations. Early frame desingations were 3.0 and 2.8 which used the cantilevered dropouts. Don't think I've ever seen one with 27" wheels either,but that does not mean it couldn't be.