USCF rule change -- a bad one

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

Take note of proposed change to 1G11.

From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
specified in the official race announcement."

To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
fees already paid.]"

This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.

I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
opposition to this.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>
> From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
> organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
> specified in the official race announcement."
>
> To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
> to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
> the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
> start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
> race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
> notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
> the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
> the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
> requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
> announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
> fees already paid.]"
>
> This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
> putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
>
> I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
> opposition to this.


So if the rider comes down with the plague the day before the race,
tough nuggies?

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the post. If this goes through, I'm officially removing
myself from race promoting. I got abused enough this year, this rule
change will make things much worse. Maybe I could deal with this for
one event per year...but 5 or 6 events is too much. I simply won't do
it.

But I will voice my concerns with the ad and we'll see what happens.



John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>
> From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
> organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
> specified in the official race announcement."
>
> To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
> to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
> the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
> start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
> race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
> notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
> the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
> the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
> requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
> announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
> fees already paid.]"
>
> This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
> putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
>
> I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
> opposition to this.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

 

[[email protected]]

I've found most promoters are fair about refunds, at least under
extenuating circumstances. I think putting this rule into place will
burden a promoter. Hey two weeks notice is one thing, but night
before, maybe because the weather looks bad...no way. I do just cross
races, so I prefer to use the ABR. I would recommend them to anyone
and they honor USAC licenses.

CH


> > So if the rider comes down with the plague the day before the race,
> >tough nuggies?
>
> If the promoter doesn't want to give the money back or want to deal
> with it, yes.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:01:47 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
<[email protected]> wrote:

>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>
>> Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>>
>> From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
>> organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
>> specified in the official race announcement."
>>
>> To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
>> to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
>> the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
>> start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
>> race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
>> notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
>> the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
>> the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
>> requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
>> announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
>> fees already paid.]"
>>
>> This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
>> putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
>>
>> I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
>> opposition to this.
>
>
> So if the rider comes down with the plague the day before the race,
>tough nuggies?

If the promoter doesn't want to give the money back or want to deal
with it, yes.
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

[email protected] wrote:

> I've found most promoters are fair about refunds, at least under
> extenuating circumstances. I think putting this rule into place will
> burden a promoter.

I understand and agree.

Steve


Hey two weeks notice is one thing, but night
> before, maybe because the weather looks bad...no way. I do just cross
> races, so I prefer to use the ABR. I would recommend them to anyone
> and they honor USAC licenses.
>
> CH
>
>
>
>>> So if the rider comes down with the plague the day before the race,
>>>tough nuggies?
>>
>>If the promoter doesn't want to give the money back or want to deal
>>with it, yes.
>>--
>>JT
>>****************************
>>Remove "remove" to reply
>>Visit http://www.jt10000.com
>>****************************
>
>


--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[Mark & Steven Bornfeld]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:01:47 GMT, Mark & Steven Bornfeld
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>>>
>>>From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
>>>organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
>>>specified in the official race announcement."
>>>
>>>To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
>>>to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
>>>the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
>>>start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
>>>race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
>>>notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
>>>the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
>>>the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
>>>requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
>>>announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
>>>fees already paid.]"
>>>
>>>This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
>>>putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
>>>
>>>I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
>>>opposition to this.
>>
>>
>> So if the rider comes down with the plague the day before the race,
>>tough nuggies?
>
>
> If the promoter doesn't want to give the money back or want to deal
> with it, yes.


Well, CH is right. A little common sense goes a long way. I figure
standing too hard is going to hurt someone one way or the other.
Depends on whose ox is being gored, huh?
I don't know what entry fees are these days, so I don't know how big a
deal this is to riders. Racing isn't much of a sport for poor people
anyhow, I guess.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

 

[Casey Kerrigan]

In article <[email protected]>, John Forrest
Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>
> From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
> organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
> specified in the official race announcement."
>
> To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
> to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
> the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
> start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
> race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
> notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
> the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
> the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
> requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
> announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
> fees already paid.]"
>
> This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
> putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
>
> I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
> opposition to this.

This proposed rule change could be a real problem for promoters of
really popular races. Think about what is likely to happen. A popular
race that normally fills the field limit as it is. Riders will rush to
pre-enter without worring if they can actually race that day or not
because they can get most of their entry fee back if they can't race
that day. The fields fill up with a lot of riders who can't actually
make the race. Just before race day the refund requests start poring
in. Now the promoter has to try and contact the people on the wait list
to let them know there is now room for them in the race. Seems like a
lot of extra work for promoters on the final days leading up to the
race.

People might want to also note the possible changes for Junior gear
limits. Smaller gear restrictions for younger riders. The rule might be
changed so that juniors will be restricted to their geas no matter what
race they ride in. So officials migth have to check gears for any
junior riding in an elite race. In an open junior race you might have
riders with 3 different gear limits in the race ( so officials will
have to know the aqge of the rider they are rolling out and which gear
limit applies.

I'm also not a fan of increasing the field limit for Cat 5 only races
to 75. If this passes I see another license fee increase coming down
the line to cover those extra medical insurance payments from
additional accidents in the larger Cat 5 only races.

 

[yeahyeah]

[email protected] wrote:
> Thanks for the post. If this goes through, I'm officially removing
> myself from race promoting. I got abused enough this year, this rule
> change will make things much worse. Maybe I could deal with this for
> one event per year...but 5 or 6 events is too much. I simply won't do
> it.
>
> But I will voice my concerns with the ad and we'll see what happens.
>
>
>
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
> >
> > From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
> > organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
> > specified in the official race announcement."
> >
> > To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
> > to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
> > the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
> > start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
> > race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
> > notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
> > the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
> > the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
> > requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
> > announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
> > fees already paid.]"
> >
> > This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
> > putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
> >
> > I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
> > opposition to this.
> > --
> > JT
> > ****************************
> > Remove "remove" to reply
> > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> > ****************************

No more pre-registration. It's now too risky to have the convenience
of online pre-reg, so just let them all stand in line all morning. And
if the fields fill up? Tough luck!

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"yeahyeah" <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> > Thanks for the post. If this goes through, I'm officially removing
> > myself from race promoting. I got abused enough this year, this rule
> > change will make things much worse. Maybe I could deal with this for
> > one event per year...but 5 or 6 events is too much. I simply won't do
> > it.
> >
> > But I will voice my concerns with the ad and we'll see what happens.
> >
> >
> >
> > John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > > Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
> > >
> > > From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
> > > organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
> > > specified in the official race announcement."
> > >
> > > To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
> > > to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
> > > the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
> > > start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
> > > race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
> > > notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
> > > the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
> > > the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
> > > requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
> > > announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
> > > fees already paid.]"
> > >
> > > This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
> > > putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
> > >
> > > I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
> > > opposition to this.
> > > --
> > > JT
> > > ****************************
> > > Remove "remove" to reply
> > > Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> > > ****************************
>
> No more pre-registration. It's now too risky to have the convenience
> of online pre-reg, so just let them all stand in line all morning. And
> if the fields fill up? Tough luck!

Prolly not. My second-hand experience is that organizers love online
pre-reg, because it eliminates so much hassle. If anything, I would
anticipate that more events will, if they think they can get away with
it, start trying to go pre-reg only. Pre-reg is mandatory in most
running races of any size, but then most running races of any size are
much bigger than most cycling races of any size.

I agree that writing refund policies into the USCF rule book is odd. Do
they feel this will prevent some sort of awful existing abuses by
promoters? Are cancelled race entries a significant profit source for
promoters? I'm guessing no and no.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[alan_atwood]

I can tell you that our eastern trustee has been flooded with e-mails
from New England promoters on the refund thing.....all against it. Add
me as well; no need to mandate this in the rule book, as promoters
usually do it anyway under reasonable circumstances. I say if you have
to mandate it then apply a 72-hour cutoff -- if the promoter doesn't
receive the request within 72 hours of the opening of registration then
you're SOL.

Alan


John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>
> From: " No rider shall be entitled to an entry fee refund when the
> organizer has fulfilled all the requirements of the agreement as
> specified in the official race announcement."
>
> To: "A rider who has pre-registered and paid the race fees is entitled
> to a percentage of his entry fee if the promoter is notified prior to
> the race. If the notification is made at least two weeks prior to the
> start of the race, the racer will be refunded no less than 90% of the
> race fees that are paid. This amount will be no less than 80% with
> notification is one-week prior to the race and 60% if notification is
> the day before the event. No refund after the day before the start of
> the race will be made when the organizer has fulfilled all the
> requirements of the agreement as specified in the official race
> announcement. [A rider, upon being disqualified, shall forfeit any
> fees already paid.]"
>
> This seems to add to the burden that many clubs and promoters have in
> putting on races and, IMO, should be defeated.
>
> I'd urge USCF members to let your area directors know about your
> opposition to this.
> --
> JT
> ****************************
> Remove "remove" to reply
> Visit http://www.jt10000.com
> ****************************

 

[Casey Kerrigan]

In article <[email protected]>, Ryan
Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:


>
> I agree that writing refund policies into the USCF rule book is odd. Do
> they feel this will prevent some sort of awful existing abuses by
> promoters? Are cancelled race entries a significant profit source for
> promoters? I'm guessing no and no.

Remember that anyone can propose legislation no matter how good or bad
the proposed rule change might be in the eyes of most people. Note that
the propsal being discussed in this thread came from and individual and
not from USAC staff.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <231020060757262806%[email protected]>,
Casey Kerrigan <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Ryan
> Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > I agree that writing refund policies into the USCF rule book is odd. Do
> > they feel this will prevent some sort of awful existing abuses by
> > promoters? Are cancelled race entries a significant profit source for
> > promoters? I'm guessing no and no.
>
> Remember that anyone can propose legislation no matter how good or bad
> the proposed rule change might be in the eyes of most people. Note that
> the propsal being discussed in this thread came from and individual and
> not from USAC staff.

Mm! Then perhaps some perspective about its chances of passage should be
retained.

Wait a minute, I've never done a USCF event in my life, and I've never
asked for a refund either. Why am I bothering with this?

Really, only I can answer that,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[MC Doop]

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> Take note of proposed change to 1G11.
>... 60% if notification is
> the day before the event.

As a race organizer, I see this proposed change as an event killer.
Many times, walk-up registration is the only way to make small events
break even or come out ahead, and weather is a key factor.

Here's the scenario that I see: riders register way in advance, then
their training isn't where they want it, then they look at the slight
chance of possible rain in the weekend forecast, and they think "nah,
I'll stay at home this weekend". They're only out $15, but the promoter
has 3 or 4 dozen people doing this and BOOM, the event is in the red
big time and the race doesn't ever come back.

I encourage everyone, racers and organizers, to contact their regional
coordinator to request that this proposal disappear, or else most of
the weekend races will.

Click on your state from the USACycling map to get your Regional Rep's
contact info - http://www.usacycling.org/states/new/