I agree, the SRM/disk is the best set up. I'm currently using a P.T. laced to a Zipp 808 rim. I think I'll sell this set up to enable the purchase of a SRM amature.Then get a disk later on next year.
Robert,Robert West said:I agree, the SRM/disk is the best set up. I'm currently using a P.T. laced to a Zipp 808 rim. I think I'll sell this set up to enable the purchase of a SRM amature.Then get a disk later on next year.
I'm curious. At your current FT and assuming that you ride a 40K TT at a constant power precisely equal to your FT, what do you estimate the time savings of the disc (whichever disc you are considering) versus the Zipp 808?Robert West said:I agree, the SRM/disk is the best set up. I'm currently using a P.T. laced to a Zipp 808 rim. I think I'll sell this set up to enable the purchase of a SRM amature.Then get a disk later on next year.
I can only tell you that, I did a 40 Km TT a week ago and I did it in 58:15. I used a set of 404 clinchers as my wheel set. I used a HRM and RPE to pace myself. That said I may have started off harder than I should have, but I can tell you that I white knuckled the bars to the finish without fading to badly yet I had nothing left in the legs to spare for a sprint either.RapDaddyo said:I'm curious. At your current FT and assuming that you ride a 40K TT at a constant power precisely equal to your FT, what do you estimate the time savings of the disc (whichever disc you are considering) versus the Zipp 808?
I guess you and I just approach things differently. I think there are 5 ways to ride a faster TT time: (1) develop more sustainable power; (2) buy more aerodynamic equipment, including frame, wheels, helmet, skinsuit, etc.; (3) learn to ride in more aerodynamic positions; (4) develop an optimal pacing strategy specific to the course and conditions; and (5) learn to pace oneself better to be able to deploy the optimal pacing strategy effectively, including the use of available technology to assist pacing. I do not see these as mutually exclusive options, although with a limited budget (which applies to most of us) some options might be mutually exclusive from a cost consideration. It seems that you require proof that something will save you a certain number of minutes or seconds. I am willing to look at the logic and underlying scientific rationale of a premise to see if it shows promise to save time and, if possible, test it. As they say, different strokes for different folks. I'll repeat, I hope you have a great ride and set a personal best time. Good luck.Robert West said:I can only tell you that, I did a 40 Km TT a week ago and I did it in 58:15. I used a set of 404 clinchers as my wheel set. I used a HRM and RPE to pace myself. That said I may have started off harder than I should have, but I can tell you that I white knuckled the bars to the finish without fading to badly yet I had nothing left in the legs to spare for a sprint either.
Now I know that with a disk wheel I'll save time, how much, I'm not sure but I'll go out on a limb and say that I will save time (weather permitting). On the other hand no one on this forum has said definitively that I will even save a second using a PM. I guess it's a risk to say that but people like to imply that you might. I'm sorry if this is a bit ruff but I think it either works or it doesn't if no one is willing to say that it will out right work, that tells me that the planets and the moons just have to be inline for this to be right. A disk wheel works, simple no strings you buy it, you save time. Plus I want to shake this tree a bit harder, due to the Yapping dog chased a cat up there. no disrespect intended. I think it causes a learning curve somehow or maybe I just learn better this way.
Sure, but he asked if you had any idea how much. In other words, have you done any research to support your ideas, or are you just shooting from the hip? Here's a document right on the Zipp site with the values you need: http://www.zipp.com/tech/documents/AeroOverviewData2.pdfRobert West said:Now I know that with a disk wheel I'll save time, how much, I'm not sure but I'll go out on a limb and say that I will save time (weather permitting).
frenchyge said:The 808s are nearly identical to a disk for any wind angle less than 20-deg off axis, and even then the power difference is miniscule between the two at 30mph. Tell me that you couldn't do better than that through proper pacing.
Robert West said:Now I know that with a disk wheel I'll save time, how much, I'm not sure but I'll go out on a limb and say that I will save time (weather permitting). On the other hand no one on this forum has said definitively that I will even save a second using a PM. I guess it's a risk to say that but people like to imply that you might. I'm sorry if this is a bit ruff but I think it either works or it doesn't if no one is willing to say that it will out right work, that tells me that the planets and the moons just have to be inline for this to be right. A disk wheel works, simple no strings you buy it, you save time. Plus I want to shake this tree a bit harder, due to the Yapping dog chased a cat up there. no disrespect intended. I think it causes a learning curve somehow or maybe I just learn better this way.
Yes, I believe that's the case. For a 30mph wind at a relative wind angle of 20-deg or more, you'd need a 10mph straight crosswind.Roadie_scum said:And the wind vector would, I believe, be calculated relative to bike speed rather than a stationary point, so even a straight crosswind would be at a low angle if you were travelling fast relative to the windspeed. Is that correct aero junkies?
let's see ... Robert has 404's, a set of 808's with PT, and a disk... quite the collection Maybe he's just a very clever troll?RapDaddyo said:I have a VP pacing strategy optimization model under construction. While it's still a bit clunky and requires some hand-holding, it is sufficiently far enough along to provide some insights to your questions. I still don't know how much time you think you will save with a disc versus your Zipp 808s, so I don't have anything to use for a net gain or loss. But, I can address a likely pacing scenario with and without a PM.
Comments from Ric, frenchyge and others plus my own experience suggests that a highly likely pacing scenario without a PM is to take it out too fast, drop back and then try to finish strong. I'm not set up yet to look at more than two segments, so I'll have to defer on that specific strategy. But, I have taken a look at a two-segment scenario of going out too hard (over one's FT) and then finishing at less than FT. My model is entirely based on NP, so one needs to first buy into the physiology assumptions embedded in NP. Specifically, I assumed that one has an FT of 300w, the course is a flat 40K TT and there is no wind. As to pacing, I have assumed that the cyclist rides at 325w for 15 minutes, then realizes his pacing error and backs off. Now, I have given this cyclist super-human powers and he chooses a fall-back pace that brings him across the finish line with an NP for the entire course exactly equal to his FT. IOW, after making his original pacing mistake, his pacing is absolutely perfect. That "perfect" pace turns out to be 289w by my calculations. The time difference of this scenario is 59:57 versus a constant power pacing strategy of 59:33, or 24 seconds slower (I know, you've already done better than this). Personally, I don't think I could execute this pacing strategy. I think I could take it out 25w too high for 15 minutes, but I don't think I could do the "perfect" NP pace from there to the finish. So, I think this is actually a best case scenario and that the more likely scenario would be slower than this.
Again, the time difference of using a PM for pacing will be different for every cylist and I have no idea how good you are at pacing without a PM. This analysis is more of a likely scenario for the typical cyclist than a specific analysis for you. I still say ride your disc because you believe in it.
I am following the ergomo developments very closely, for this very reason. I think the concept of their approach is very interesting, but results to date have not been persuasive.teakay said:Are Ergomo's thought of as too incurate (only left side power) to be suggested as a possible alternative that would let you race with a disk? I see the new Pro model will have better sampling rates. Or are they though of as to unreliebale
RapDaddyo said:I am following the ergomo developments very closely, for this very reason. I think the concept of their approach is very interesting, but results to date have not been persuasive.
That is my understanding, which is why I continue to be only interested but not persuaded. Somebody told me that they have added NP to the computer display options. That's interesting, but I wouldn't trade it for accuracy and consistency in power measurement.ric_stern/RST said:Isn't it the same bottom bracket/power meter as in the previous model, with just the computer head vastly changed?
ric
So I take it that the current version is neither accurate or or consistant? - If so is this info gain from owners that have had problems or are there any critical tests/reviews on it that I can read?RapDaddyo said:That is my understanding, which is why I continue to be only interested but not persuaded. Somebody told me that they have added NP to the computer display options. That's interesting, but I wouldn't trade it for accuracy and consistency in power measurement.
I don't claim to be an Ergomo expert. I don't own one and have never used one. I am simply following the progress of this PM. The best info on Ergomo is probably the topicA threads http://lists.topica.com/search/?query=ergomo&search_what=900009803&search_type=msg&x=22&y=10.teakay said:So I take it that the current version is neither accurate or or consistant? - If so is this info gain from owners that have had problems or are there any critical tests/reviews on it that I can read?
Thanks - I will have a look there.RapDaddyo said:I don't claim to be an Ergomo expert. I don't own one and have never used one. I am simply following the progress of this PM. The best info on Ergomo is probably the topicA threads http://lists.topica.com/search/?query=ergomo&search_what=900009803&search_type=msg&x=22&y=10.
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