Use CVT transmission (from minibike) for electric bicycles, scooters?



F

fancy nospam tunes

Guest
Just saw a 49cc mini motorcycle with a Constant Velocity Transmission.
It was a Chinese motorbike with "CVT" stamped on the chain cover.
Price was only $250 for the whole motorbike.

Anybody with a report on how reliable, long term use, this CVT is? Are
they sold as "parts" and be used for full-size 750-watt electric bikes
or 1500-watt electric scooters?
 
On 26 Sep 2004 21:44:06 -0700, [email protected] (fancy
nospam tunes) wrote:

>Just saw a 49cc mini motorcycle with a Constant Velocity Transmission.
>It was a Chinese motorbike with "CVT" stamped on the chain cover.
>Price was only $250 for the whole motorbike.
>
>Anybody with a report on how reliable, long term use, this CVT is? Are
>they sold as "parts" and be used for full-size 750-watt electric bikes
>or 1500-watt electric scooters?


In Taiwan all of the scooters are CVT. I personally own and ride a
Kymco 125cc scooter with a CVT. Its damn good and the build quality
is excellent. I cannot speak for China built bikes though.


Michael J. Klein [email protected]
Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
---------------------------------------------
 
On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:49:16 +0800, Michael J. Klein
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On 26 Sep 2004 21:44:06 -0700, [email protected] (fancy
> nospam tunes) wrote:
>
>> Just saw a 49cc mini motorcycle with a Constant Velocity Transmission.
>> It was a Chinese motorbike with "CVT" stamped on the chain cover.
>> Price was only $250 for the whole motorbike.
>>
>> Anybody with a report on how reliable, long term use, this CVT is? Are
>> they sold as "parts" and be used for full-size 750-watt electric bikes
>> or 1500-watt electric scooters?

>
> In Taiwan all of the scooters are CVT. I personally own and ride a
> Kymco 125cc scooter with a CVT. Its damn good and the build quality
> is excellent. I cannot speak for China built bikes though.
>
>
> Michael J. Klein [email protected]
> Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
> Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
> ---------------------------------------------

My only reason for jumping in here is that about 10, maybe 15 years ago
there was some investigation done on using CVTs for cars. It was
determined that they would not hold up under the abuse drivers put
them through (floor it, pull out slow) unless they were very large
and thus impracticle for a car. For a small limited power bike they
may make sense since a small bike is almost always full throttle from
a stop due to lack of power. Designing around this should be no problem.
Of course being made in China does not give me warm fuzzies either.
Now that electric is here I don't think they will ever be in cars.
Bill Baka


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
 
>Subject: Re: Use CVT transmission (from minibike) for electric bicycles,
>scooters?
>From: Bill Baka [email protected]
>Date: 10/2/2004 10:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:49:16 +0800, Michael J. Klein
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On 26 Sep 2004 21:44:06 -0700, [email protected] (fancy
>> nospam tunes) wrote:
>>
>>> Just saw a 49cc mini motorcycle with a Constant Velocity Transmission.
>>> It was a Chinese motorbike with "CVT" stamped on the chain cover.
>>> Price was only $250 for the whole motorbike.
>>>
>>> Anybody with a report on how reliable, long term use, this CVT is? Are
>>> they sold as "parts" and be used for full-size 750-watt electric bikes
>>> or 1500-watt electric scooters?

>>
>> In Taiwan all of the scooters are CVT. I personally own and ride a
>> Kymco 125cc scooter with a CVT. Its damn good and the build quality
>> is excellent. I cannot speak for China built bikes though.
>>
>>
>> Michael J. Klein [email protected]
>> Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
>> Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
>> ---------------------------------------------

>My only reason for jumping in here is that about 10, maybe 15 years ago
>there was some investigation done on using CVTs for cars. It was
>determined that they would not hold up under the abuse drivers put
>them through (floor it, pull out slow) unless they were very large
>and thus impracticle for a car. For a small limited power bike they
>may make sense since a small bike is almost always full throttle from
>a stop due to lack of power. Designing around this should be no problem.
>Of course being made in China does not give me warm fuzzies either.
>Now that electric is here I don't think they will ever be in cars.
>Bill Baka


Think again, some new fords are using CVT's, and they were used in Subaru
Justys. I think the Prius is too, but not sure, not a huge Prius fan here.
 
On 02 Oct 2004 16:10:25 GMT, Fx199 <[email protected]> wrote:

>> Subject: Re: Use CVT transmission (from minibike) for electric bicycles,
>> scooters?
>> From: Bill Baka [email protected]
>> Date: 10/2/2004 10:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time
>> Message-id: <[email protected]>
>>
>> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:49:16 +0800, Michael J. Klein
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On 26 Sep 2004 21:44:06 -0700, [email protected] (fancy
>>> nospam tunes) wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just saw a 49cc mini motorcycle with a Constant Velocity Transmission.
>>>> It was a Chinese motorbike with "CVT" stamped on the chain cover.
>>>> Price was only $250 for the whole motorbike.
>>>>
>>>> Anybody with a report on how reliable, long term use, this CVT is? Are
>>>> they sold as "parts" and be used for full-size 750-watt electric bikes
>>>> or 1500-watt electric scooters?
>>>
>>> In Taiwan all of the scooters are CVT. I personally own and ride a
>>> Kymco 125cc scooter with a CVT. Its damn good and the build quality
>>> is excellent. I cannot speak for China built bikes though.
>>>
>>>
>>> Michael J. Klein [email protected]
>>> Dasi Jen, Taoyuan Hsien, Taiwan, ROC
>>> Please replace mousepotato with asiancastings
>>> ---------------------------------------------

>> My only reason for jumping in here is that about 10, maybe 15 years ago
>> there was some investigation done on using CVTs for cars. It was
>> determined that they would not hold up under the abuse drivers put
>> them through (floor it, pull out slow) unless they were very large
>> and thus impracticle for a car. For a small limited power bike they
>> may make sense since a small bike is almost always full throttle from
>> a stop due to lack of power. Designing around this should be no problem.
>> Of course being made in China does not give me warm fuzzies either.
>> Now that electric is here I don't think they will ever be in cars.
>> Bill Baka

>
> Think again, some new fords are using CVT's, and they were used in Subaru
> Justys. I think the Prius is too, but not sure, not a huge Prius fan
> here.


I am not sure the CVT is all mechanical, it may be electrical, but I
would have to do some research to be totally sure. The problem with
CVTs was that they could not handle huge amounts of torque, which
may not be a problem with the small engines in a hybrid. The best
reason I can think of to use one is to keep the RPMs up to the
motor/generator while dumping braking energy back into the battery pack.
Again, I don't claim to be an expert since my research mode is limited
by a dial up only speed problem. Too far for DSL, and cable is too
expensive for my time online (so far, it's Comcast).
Bill Baka


--
Using M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/
 
Bill Baka <[email protected]> writes:

> ... about 10, maybe 15 years ago there was some investigation done
> on using CVTs for cars. It was determined that they would not hold
> up under the abuse drivers put them through (floor it, pull out
> slow) unless they were very large and thus impracticle for a
> car. For a small limited power bike they may make sense since a
> small bike is almost always full throttle from a stop due to lack of
> power. Designing around this should be no problem. Of course being
> made in China does not give me warm fuzzies either. Now that
> electric is here I don't think they will ever be in cars.


Various car makers are discontinuing their CVT's for durability
reasons. Some mechanisms do not scale well and this appears to be
such a beast. They served well in small engine vehicles and the DAF
car when it has a small two stroke motor but never made it to vehicles
over 100HP. In contrast, diesel engines don't scale down well,
certainly not to motorcycle dimensions, while scaling up beautifully to
cylinder bores close to one meter n diameter. If CVT's could be used for
common autos, highway trucks would be where you would see them first.

http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
>From: [email protected]

>Various car makers are discontinuing their CVT's for durability
>reasons. Some mechanisms do not scale well and this appears to be
>such a beast. They served well in small engine vehicles and the DAF
>car when it has a small two stroke motor but never made it to vehicles
>over 100HP. In contrast, diesel engines don't scale down well,
>certainly not to motorcycle dimensions, while scaling up beautifully to
>cylinder bores close to one meter n diameter. If CVT's could be used for
>common autos, highway trucks would be where you would see them first.
>
>http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/
>
>Jobst Brandt
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


I guess we know what you facts are worth:

http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=16202

""Freestyle is powered by a 203-horsepower 3.0-liter V-6 engine and a
continuously variable transmission.""

Gee, did they discontinue it on a model that's not out yet??

--And---

http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=14542

""While Honda offers Civic Hybrid buyers a choice of transmissions  a
five-speed manual or a continuously variable automatic transmission  Toyota is
marketing the redesigned 04 Prius only with a continuously variable unit. ""

HEY ROCKY, WATCH ME PULL MY HAED OUTTA MY ASS!!

I pointed these out in an earlier post, you're not listening sir.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Bill Baka <[email protected]>
wrote:

> On 02 Oct 2004 16:10:25 GMT, Fx199 <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >> Subject: Re: Use CVT transmission (from minibike) for electric bicycles,
> >> scooters?
> >> From: Bill Baka [email protected]
> >> Date: 10/2/2004 10:55 AM US Eastern Standard Time
> >> Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >>
> >> On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 22:49:16 +0800, Michael J. Klein
> >> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 26 Sep 2004 21:44:06 -0700, [email protected] (fancy
> >>> nospam tunes) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Just saw a 49cc mini motorcycle with a Constant Velocity Transmission.
> >>>> It was a Chinese motorbike with "CVT" stamped on the chain cover.
> >>>> Price was only $250 for the whole motorbike.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anybody with a report on how reliable, long term use, this CVT is? Are
> >>>> they sold as "parts" and be used for full-size 750-watt electric bikes
> >>>> or 1500-watt electric scooters?


> >> My only reason for jumping in here is that about 10, maybe 15 years ago
> >> there was some investigation done on using CVTs for cars. It was
> >> determined that they would not hold up under the abuse drivers put
> >> them through (floor it, pull out slow) unless they were very large
> >> and thus impracticle for a car. For a small limited power bike they
> >> may make sense since a small bike is almost always full throttle from
> >> a stop due to lack of power. Designing around this should be no problem.
> >> Of course being made in China does not give me warm fuzzies either.
> >> Now that electric is here I don't think they will ever be in cars.
> >> Bill Baka

> >
> > Think again, some new fords are using CVT's, and they were used in Subaru
> > Justys. I think the Prius is too, but not sure, not a huge Prius fan
> > here.

>
> I am not sure the CVT is all mechanical, it may be electrical, but I
> would have to do some research to be totally sure. The problem with
> CVTs was that they could not handle huge amounts of torque, which
> may not be a problem with the small engines in a hybrid. The best
> reason I can think of to use one is to keep the RPMs up to the
> motor/generator while dumping braking energy back into the battery pack.
> Again, I don't claim to be an expert since my research mode is limited
> by a dial up only speed problem. Too far for DSL, and cable is too
> expensive for my time online (so far, it's Comcast).
> Bill Baka


The Audi CVT, optionally available in the A4, handles at least 170 hp (I
can't tell if it is available with the 220 hp 3-litre engine, or only
with the 1.8 turbo):

http://www.bullz-eye.com/carreviews/2002/audiA4.htm

The Ford 500 has 203 hp and a CVT. They say their CVT engineers can kick
GM's CVT engineers' butts.

http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=8533

Personally, I think the future of the transmission lies with
servo-shifted auto-clutch electronic manuals, as seen in a bunch of cool
cars.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.
 
RU486 writes:

>> Various car makers are discontinuing their CVT's for durability
>> reasons. Some mechanisms do not scale well and this appears to be
>> such a beast. They served well in small engine vehicles and the
>> DAF car when it has a small two stroke motor but never made it to
>> vehicles over 100HP. In contrast, diesel engines don't scale down
>> well, certainly not to motorcycle dimensions, while scaling up
>> beautifully to cylinder bores close to one meter n diameter. If
>> CVT's could be used for common autos, highway trucks would be where
>> you would see them first.


http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/

> I guess we know what you facts are worth:


> http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=16202


> ""Freestyle is powered by a 203-horsepower 3.0-liter V-6 engine and a
> continuously variable transmission.""


> Gee, did they discontinue it on a model that's not out yet??


This is one of the cars that will discontinue the unit for reliability
and acceptance problems.

> http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=14542


> ""While Honda offers Civic Hybrid buyers a choice of transmissions ?
> a five-speed manual or a continuously variable automatic
> transmission ? Toyota is marketing the redesigned ?04 Prius only
> with a continuously variable unit. ""


> HEY ROCKY, WATCH ME PULL MY HAED OUTTA MY ASS!!


> I pointed these out in an earlier post, you're not listening sir.


Here's another news item on that subject to which you might listen:

http://www.autonews.com/article.cms?articleId=49869

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
> I'm not a subsciber, please paste it.

> CVT's are coming


From Automotive News
---------------------------------------------------------------------
CVT wages a battle for wider acceptance

By Wim Oude Weernink Automotive News / September 27, 2004

The Durashift CVT Ford installed on its European Focus and C-Max uses
a Van Doorne belt.

Other stories on the subject

SPOTLIGHT ON TECHNOLOGY: CVTs resolve shortcomings - 2004-09-20
SPOTLIGHT ON TECHNOLOGY: How CVTs work - 2004-09-20

TILBURG, Netherlands -- Thirty-five years after it was invented, the
continuously variable transmission, or CVT, is battling to prove
itself as an alternative to conventional manuals and automatics.

But the emphasis has shifted. The CVT debate is less about reliability
and handling high torque and more about physical packaging, customer
acceptance, product complexity and competing technologies.

And its proponents have spread beyond Van Doorne Transmissie, the
corporate legacy of Hub Van Doorne. Van Doorne Transmissie is a
subsidiary of Bosch Auto Electronics.

Hub Van Doorne introduced the CVT on his Dutch-built DAF trucks in the
late 1960s. Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Fiat Auto, most
Japanese automakers and transmission specialist ZF Friedrichshafen AG
use Van Doorne Transmissie's transmission belts, the heart of most
CVTs.

Van Doorne Transmissie also has a German competitor with growing
volume. LuK of Buhl, Germany, sells its competing chain to Audi and
soon will add Ford in the United States. LuK has only an 8 percent
share of the global CVT belt market.

Sharp growth?

Van Doorne Transmissie sees a big future for CVTs. From annual
production of 1 million belts in 2002, Van Doorne expects to build as
many as 2 million by 2010 to 2012 in the Netherlands, company
spokewoman Paulina Rath says.

The company projects another 2 million belts will be produced by then
by its joint venture with transmission maker Aisin-AW in Japan.

But others don't share Van Doorne Transmissie's enthusiasm. Last
spring, GM decided to end production of CVTs by 2005 at its
Szentgotthard, Hungary, plant, following quality problems. GM also
wanted to reduce the complexity of its global transmission portfolio.

Now, a high-placed BMW source says that his company will drop the CVT
for the next-generation Mini in favor of a traditional automatic.

In Germany, only 8.4 percent of Mini Coopers are sold with CVT and
just 3.2 percent of the less powerful Mini One.

Rath says that other European vehicles that are equipped with CVT
transmissions in Europe have a 5 percent to 10 percent share.

But Mercedes-Benz expects at least 50 percent of its new A-class units
debuting this fall will be sold with CVT. Ford also has high CVT
ambitions.

No belt problems

Van Doorne Transmissie confirms that there were some problems with
GM's CVT.

"But it did not have anything to do with our belt, which complied with
specifications as set by GM," Rath says.

Rath also denies that BMW's decision to abandon CVT for the
next-generation Mini had anything to do with quality.

Van Doorne Transmissie still has a 91 percent market share globally
with CVT belts. But rival LuK's share is likely to grow since it began
supplying a Ford transmission plant in Batavia, Ohio, for use in a new
CVT for the Ford Five Hundred sedan and Freestyle SUV. LuK does not
disclose production numbers.

CVTs will never completely replace other automatic transmission
systems, says ZF spokesman Martin Demel. But he adds: "In 10 years, we
expect CVTs to have a 10 percent share of the global automatic
transmission market."
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
>> CVT's are coming
>
>From Automotive News
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>CVT wages a battle for wider acceptance
>
>By Wim Oude Weernink Automotive News / September 27, 2004
>
>The Durashift CVT Ford installed on its European Focus and C-Max uses
>a Van Doorne belt.
>
>Other stories on the subject
>
>SPOTLIGHT ON TECHNOLOGY: CVTs resolve shortcomings - 2004-09-20
>SPOTLIGHT ON TECHNOLOGY: How CVTs work - 2004-09-20
>
>TILBURG, Netherlands -- Thirty-five years after it was invented, the
>continuously variable transmission, or CVT, is battling to prove
>itself as an alternative to conventional manuals and automatics.
>
>But the emphasis has shifted. The CVT debate is less about reliability
>and handling high torque and more about physical packaging, customer
>acceptance, product complexity and competing technologies.
>
>And its proponents have spread beyond Van Doorne Transmissie, the
>corporate legacy of Hub Van Doorne. Van Doorne Transmissie is a
>subsidiary of Bosch Auto Electronics.
>
>Hub Van Doorne introduced the CVT on his Dutch-built DAF trucks in the
>late 1960s. Ford Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG, Fiat Auto, most
>Japanese automakers and transmission specialist ZF Friedrichshafen AG
>use Van Doorne Transmissie's transmission belts, the heart of most
>CVTs.
>
>Van Doorne Transmissie also has a German competitor with growing
>volume. LuK of Buhl, Germany, sells its competing chain to Audi and
>soon will add Ford in the United States. LuK has only an 8 percent
>share of the global CVT belt market.
>
>Sharp growth?
>
>Van Doorne Transmissie sees a big future for CVTs. From annual
>production of 1 million belts in 2002, Van Doorne expects to build as
>many as 2 million by 2010 to 2012 in the Netherlands, company
>spokewoman Paulina Rath says.
>
>The company projects another 2 million belts will be produced by then
>by its joint venture with transmission maker Aisin-AW in Japan.
>
>But others don't share Van Doorne Transmissie's enthusiasm. Last
>spring, GM decided to end production of CVTs by 2005 at its
>Szentgotthard, Hungary, plant, following quality problems. GM also
>wanted to reduce the complexity of its global transmission portfolio.
>
>Now, a high-placed BMW source says that his company will drop the CVT
>for the next-generation Mini in favor of a traditional automatic.
>
>In Germany, only 8.4 percent of Mini Coopers are sold with CVT and
>just 3.2 percent of the less powerful Mini One.
>
>Rath says that other European vehicles that are equipped with CVT
>transmissions in Europe have a 5 percent to 10 percent share.
>
>But Mercedes-Benz expects at least 50 percent of its new A-class units
>debuting this fall will be sold with CVT. Ford also has high CVT
>ambitions.
>
>No belt problems
>
>Van Doorne Transmissie confirms that there were some problems with
>GM's CVT.
>
>"But it did not have anything to do with our belt, which complied with
>specifications as set by GM," Rath says.
>
>Rath also denies that BMW's decision to abandon CVT for the
>next-generation Mini had anything to do with quality.
>
>Van Doorne Transmissie still has a 91 percent market share globally
>with CVT belts. But rival LuK's share is likely to grow since it began
>supplying a Ford transmission plant in Batavia, Ohio, for use in a new
>CVT for the Ford Five Hundred sedan and Freestyle SUV. LuK does not
>disclose production numbers.
>
>CVTs will never completely replace other automatic transmission
>systems, says ZF spokesman Martin Demel. But he adds: "In 10 years, we
>expect CVTs to have a 10 percent share of the global automatic
>transmission market."
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Jobst Brandt
>[email protected]


Thanks for posting, I do think they are having growing pains, but they are
coming eventually. I don't see any disagreement with what I said, GM was never
mentioned.
Where does it say Ford won't offer it in the 500?
 
<< From: [email protected] (Fx199)
Date: Sat, Oct 2, 2004 5:01 PM
Message-id: <[email protected]>

>From: [email protected]


>Various car makers are discontinuing their CVT's for durability
>reasons. Some mechanisms do not scale well and this appears to be
>such a beast. They served well in small engine vehicles and the DAF
>car when it has a small two stroke motor but never made it to vehicles
>over 100HP. In contrast, diesel engines don't scale down well,
>certainly not to motorcycle dimensions, while scaling up beautifully to
>cylinder bores close to one meter n diameter. If CVT's could be used for
>common autos, highway trucks would be where you would see them first.
>
>http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/
>
>Jobst Brandt
>[email protected]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


I guess we know what you facts are worth:

http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=16202

""Freestyle is powered by a 203-horsepower 3.0-liter V-6 engine and a
continuously variable transmission.""

Gee, did they discontinue it on a model that's not out yet??

--And---

http://info.detnews.com/autosconsumer/autoreviews/index.cfm?id=14542

""While Honda offers Civic Hybrid buyers a choice of transmissions a
five-speed manual or a continuously variable automatic transmission Toyota is
marketing the redesigned 04 Prius only with a continuously variable unit. ""

HEY ROCKY, WATCH ME PULL MY HAED OUTTA MY ASS!!

I pointed these out in an earlier post, you're not listening sir.
>><BR><BR>

And Nissan’s 245 HP Murano uses a CVT transmission. Too bad someone didn’t
tell them ahead of time that it wouldn’t be too reliable.