V2 Formula vs GRR

Discussion in 'Recumbent bicycles' started by [email protected], Dec 8, 2005.

  1. I think Calhoun Cycle has the V2 Formula on sale for $2100, less than
    the going rate for a quality used Gold Rush Replica. The V2 Formula
    and GRR are both aluminum and come in around the same weight. So how
    does the V2F compete with the GRR in the speed dept?

    Jim Reilly
    Reading, PA
     
    Tags:


  2. Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic wrote:
    > ... so that will generally be [not] be a decisive factor.


    Please note correction - Ed. [1]

    [1] Abbreviation for "Editor", not "Edward".
     
  3. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    [...]
    > However, the inherent performance advantage of either bicycle is likely
    > to be outweighed by the influence of rider comfort on performance. Some
    > will find the medium height BB on the RANS V2 too high, while others
    > will find the upright seating position on the GRR to be uncomfortable
    > on longer rides. The potential purchaser will be better off choosing
    > the bike that offers the preferred riding position and/or handling
    > qualities.

    [...]

    The above is the one thing that you cannot change on a recumbent, i.e., the
    relationship of the seat to the crank. I have often thought that the optimum
    for this arrangement is to have the crank only slightly below the seat, as
    in the RANS Tailwind and the new Bacchetta Agio. The crank appears to be
    only several inches lower than the seat in both of the above cases. This is
    also a powerful pedaling position. The only thing against it is that it is
    not very aerodynamic.

    I think that RANS V2 has slightly too high a crank, but still not bad, and
    that the GRR has too low a crank. I have the RANS V2 and it is always a bit
    of a learning experience to get back on it after having been on my homemade
    Tour Easy with the low crank. As you can see from this, I am strictly a long
    wheelbase kind of recumbent guy.

    By the way, have there been any reports around on the new Bacchetta Agio? It
    is not a high end recumbent, but it looks like a very nice design with
    acceptable components - and not too pricey. I think it would handle very
    easily and be plenty fast enough. I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
    the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind, one
    of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  4. Edward Dolan wrote:
    > ... I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
    > the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind, one
    > of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.


    Presumably this is the version of the RANS Tailwind with square
    cross-section tubing, short chain stays that leave most of the main
    tube cantilevered [1] and the "C" handlebars. The latter Tailwinds
    handle much better than the original version, according to most who
    have ridden both.

    [1] Unlike the latter RANS Tailwinds (and RANS Wave) with round tubing,
    chain stays that meet the main tube at the bottom bracket a short
    distance behind the head tube, and "T" handlebars.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
    "are there stones on distant mountain decents marking the gored and
    deceased? arms and wrists broken ?
    or is this unreported?" - G. Daniels
     
  5. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Edward Dolan wrote:
    >> ... I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
    >> the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind,
    >> one
    >> of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.

    >
    > Presumably this is the version of the RANS Tailwind with square
    > cross-section tubing, short chain stays that leave most of the main
    > tube cantilevered [1] and the "C" handlebars. The latter Tailwinds
    > handle much better than the original version, according to most who
    > have ridden both.
    >
    > [1] Unlike the latter RANS Tailwinds (and RANS Wave) with round tubing,
    > chain stays that meet the main tube at the bottom bracket a short
    > distance behind the head tube, and "T" handlebars.


    Yes, you have got all of the above exactly right!

    Damn! Mr. Sherman really does know his recumbents like no one else on this
    newsgroup, of that there can be no doubt. When Mr. Sherman speaks on the
    subject of recumbents, I shut up and listen.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  6. Ed, I must agree completely! On the subject of recumbents, I too shust
    up and listen.

    Jim
     
  7. Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic wrote:
    >
    > However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
    > more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
    > coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
    > a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
    > advantage.
    >


    Actually, with a properly designed fairing I believe the V2 rider could
    easily be as close to the fairing as a GRR rider. The GRR rider sits
    closer to the fairing because of the design of the fairing, not becasue
    of the design of the bike, especially considering the different risers
    and bars one can now buy for a V2. One of the problems is that the V2
    uses an off-the-shelf Mueller fairing, while Easy Racer bikes use a
    Zzipper that has been basically built for their bikes. We have both
    Mueller and Zzipper fairings for our TE's. When riding with the
    Mueller it is obvious that the fairing bows upward and then bends back.
    This puts the fairing further from the feet than the Zzipper. I
    noticed this last winter when riding in cold weather. I could feel the
    wind wrap around the Mueller and hit my feet. This winter (and two
    winters ago) riding with the Zzipper keeps my feet out of the wind.

    Last summer I talked to a rider who had mounted a Zzipper on his V2 and
    he also felt that the front bow on the Mueller is not needed nor is
    aerodynamic. He wished Zzipper would make a fairing for the V2 that
    was longer and would also come closer to the rider. With a better
    fairing design bringing the fairing closer to the body of the V2 rider,
    the V2 would, in my mind, be as fast or perhaps faster than the GRR.

    Enjoy,

    Perry B
     
  8. Perry Butler <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic wrote:
    > >
    > > However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
    > > more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
    > > coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
    > > a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
    > > advantage.
    > >

    >
    > Actually, with a properly designed fairing I believe the V2 rider could
    > easily be as close to the fairing as a GRR rider....


    However, moving the fairing closer to the rider would increase the
    amount of tiller on the V2 [1], and most seem to believe that would be
    detrimental to the handling. One of the conscious design decisions Easy
    Racers made was to reduce tiller (which of course puts other
    limitations on possible rider positions).

    > The GRR rider sits
    > closer to the fairing because of the design of the fairing, not becasue
    > of the design of the bike, especially considering the different risers
    > and bars one can now buy for a V2. One of the problems is that the V2
    > uses an off-the-shelf Mueller fairing, while Easy Racer bikes use a
    > Zzipper that has been basically built for their bikes. We have both
    > Mueller and Zzipper fairings for our TE's. When riding with the
    > Mueller it is obvious that the fairing bows upward and then bends back.
    > This puts the fairing further from the feet than the Zzipper. I
    > noticed this last winter when riding in cold weather. I could feel the
    > wind wrap around the Mueller and hit my feet. This winter (and two
    > winters ago) riding with the Zzipper keeps my feet out of the wind.


    I have ridden on a lowracer besides several Easy Racers with Super
    Zzipper front fairings, and in all cases I can determine the Easy
    Racers rider's cadence by sound alone, as there is a distinct change as
    the rider's foot passed through the zone unprotected by the fairing.
    The additional drag caused here can be estimated by noting the speed
    change between coasting downhill while pedaling in too low of a gear to
    provide any power to the drive wheel (the effect of doing this is also
    quite noticeable on an unfaired bicycle).

    [1] Unless the weight, cost and complexity of indirect steering was
    added.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
    "the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
    wave
    Point" - G. Daniels
     
  9. Jim Reilly <[email protected]> wrote:
    > Ed, I must agree completely! On the subject of recumbents, I too shust
    > up and listen.


    If that is the case, why are you not riding an Earth Cycles Sunset
    Lowracer? Do I need to do more to promote the virtues of the Sunset? ;)

    [Sounds of people screaming in terror as they flee in panic.]

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
    "the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
    wave
    Point" - G. Daniels
     
  10. How many Sunset Lowracers did Earth Cycles build? As I recall, they
    built a very nice looking trike as well when they were in business?

    Jim
     
  11. Hey Ed. What's this about getting on in our years! OK, so I DO feel
    like I am getting on in years, but the truth is that I break the HRS
    blog's stereotype about owners of highracers. I am not old or fat...
    well unless you ask my sixth grader, and she will tell you that her 43
    year old dad is REALLY old.

    Jim
     
  12. Ed, I think the TE/GRR are very similar to the Stratus. And make no
    mistake, I still commute on my faired Stratus several times a week. My
    issues with the Stratus are two fold. One, the original t-bar steering
    set up on the 99 was very tiller heavy. I fixed that with the evo-pro
    bars from Calhoun about a year before RANS introduced their own fix.
    OK. Problem solved. One down, one to go. My second problem is with
    the size of the standard frame. As a 6 foot rider with a 43.5 inch
    xseam, as a recumbent newbie, I was sold a standard frame bike (from a
    well respected Recumbent Dealer and customizer in the Rocky Mtns). I
    fit this frame, JUST barely! The seat is ALL the way back and still
    don't get quite full leg extension. Clearly today I would buy the XL
    no question about it. Jude McGloin, the former Wheel Doctor sold me my
    Strada and insisted I buy the Large frame for that bike. He was
    correct! About your comments on the V2, as I mentioned before, I am
    faster on the Strada. I feel I can deliver more power to the pedals on
    the Strada clearly a result of the higher BB. Perhaps the V2 would
    offer me the best of both worlds.... That is a better fitting LWB frame
    with a slightly higher BB for performance.

    Regards,
    Jim
     
  13. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Ed, I think the TE/GRR are very similar to the Stratus. And make no
    > mistake, I still commute on my faired Stratus several times a week. My
    > issues with the Stratus are two fold. One, the original t-bar steering
    > set up on the 99 was very tiller heavy. I fixed that with the evo-pro
    > bars from Calhoun about a year before RANS introduced their own fix.
    > OK. Problem solved. One down, one to go. My second problem is with
    > the size of the standard frame. As a 6 foot rider with a 43.5 inch
    > xseam, as a recumbent newbie, I was sold a standard frame bike (from a
    > well respected Recumbent Dealer and customizer in the Rocky Mtns). I
    > fit this frame, JUST barely! The seat is ALL the way back and still
    > don't get quite full leg extension. Clearly today I would buy the XL
    > no question about it. Jude McGloin, the former Wheel Doctor sold me my
    > Strada and insisted I buy the Large frame for that bike. He was
    > correct! About your comments on the V2, as I mentioned before, I am
    > faster on the Strada. I feel I can deliver more power to the pedals on
    > the Strada clearly a result of the higher BB. Perhaps the V2 would
    > offer me the best of both worlds.... That is a better fitting LWB frame
    > with a slightly higher BB for performance.
    >
    > Regards,
    > Jim


    Everything you say above hits home with me. I also have a 43" x-seam and I
    do need the larger frames. If you get the RANS V2 be sure it is in the
    larger size as you do not want to be all the way back on the frame. The same
    would be true if you decided to get the GRR.

    The V2 handles much better than any SWB, but the higher crank means that you
    can get SWB comfort as easy as pie. But the handling is not as secure as the
    TE. I do not get numb feet on the V2, but if the crank were another inch
    higher I think I would. I know I am right at the edge of what is possible
    for me.

    The V2 in the large size is a very large bike, no doubt about that. Very
    many people do not like LWB because the bikes are so large and consequently
    difficult to transport.

    The V2 is plenty fast and I can go as fast on it as I want. Frankly, I do
    not like to ever go much beyond 20 mph. I once went 35 mph on a SWB and
    scared myself to death. That never happens on a LWB.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  14. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hey Ed. What's this about getting on in our years! OK, so I DO feel
    > like I am getting on in years, but the truth is that I break the HRS
    > blog's stereotype about owners of highracers. I am not old or fat...
    > well unless you ask my sixth grader, and she will tell you that her 43
    > year old dad is REALLY old.
    >
    > Jim


    I have got a theory about how old is old. I think in a state of nature none
    of us would live much beyond 30. By state of nature I mean the hundreds of
    thousands of years of our primate ancestors and of our own species, Homo
    sapiens. In other words, nothing beyond the Old Stone Age.

    Therefore, if you are over 40 you are old by my definition. Mostly our
    bodies are starting to fall apart in our 20's and it just gets worse and
    worse as we age.

    However, even a high civilization was no guarantee that you would live very
    long. The catacombs of Ancient Rome are full of people who never lived
    beyond their 20's. In fact the average age of those entombed there is 24! It
    is really the invention of modern scientific medicine with its emphasis on
    public health measures that has given us a shot at a longer life. Left to
    the tender mercies of Mother Nature, we are old by 30 and most us would be
    dead by 40.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  15. Ed, the age thing really hit home for me two weeks ago at my 25 year
    high school reunion. I walked in with my wife, looked around, and
    said, "let's go", I must be in the wrong place. I certainly didn't go
    to school with the fat, bald/gray old men in this room! Ah but I did!
    And after closer examination in the mirror I see that I AM one (except
    for the fat part)!

    Jim
     
  16. Jim Reilly <[email protected]> wrote:
    > How many Sunset Lowracers did Earth Cycles build? As I recall, they
    > built a very nice looking trike as well when they were in business?


    Earth Cycles built approximately 20 Sunset Lowracers and 200
    Dragonflyer trikes.

    Here are pictures of my Dragonflyer taken by the previous owner:
    <http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/>.

    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
     
  17. Edward Dolan wrote:
    > ...
    > Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
    > recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so Mr.
    > Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish up
    > with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are getting
    > on in years and we can't wait for you forever.


    The remaining assets of Earth Cycles are for sale. If I were
    independently wealthy I would revive the company. Becoming a recumbent
    manufacturer is a good way to make a small fortune from a large fortune
    (ask those who invested in BikeE).

    > I once met Bill Cook on the North Dakota bike tour (CANDISC). Bill is the
    > designer and builder of his own line of recumbents (Barcroft). He had just
    > recently retired from being a writer for Newsweek. He took his time and
    > gradually got his recumbent the way he wanted it. It turned out to be a
    > rather long short wheel base and was quite unique. The seat was fairly laid
    > back and the crank was fairly high. I rode his prototype and liked it but I
    > told him I couldn't buy it from him because my feet would go numb from the
    > high crank. Unfortunately he ended up pricing it at $2000., a bit out of my
    > price range.


    I met Bill Cook at CABDA 2000 [1] and he seemed very enthusiastic about
    his bikes. [2]

    A couple of corrections. Bill Cook wrote for US News & World Report,
    not Newsweek.

    Secondly, Bill Cook/Barcroft subcontracts most of the work, such as
    frame building and painting. This minimizes his capital investment,
    since in many cases he can wait until he receives an order to have the
    frame built (an advantage of being a semi-custom, low volume builder).

    I suspect that Mr. Cook's primary reward is getting to have bicycles he
    likes created and receiving positive feedback from Barcroft owners, and
    not financial profit.

    > If a writer for Newsweek could design and build recumbents, surely Mr.
    > Sherman could also. I believe Mr. Sherman with his engineering background
    > and all his recumbent knowledge could come up with a very nice recumbent,
    > one that would be fast and comfortable and one that would not put my feet to
    > sleep; also, one that would not cost an arm and a leg.


    My local bike shop has bikes and trikes for people that have missing or
    damaged appendages or other physical handicaps:
    <http://thebikerack.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=396>.

    [1] 2001 was the last CABDA show.
    [2] <http://www.barcroftcycles.com/>.
    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
    "the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
    wave
    Point" - G. Daniels
     
  18. Edward Dolan wrote:
    > ...
    > The V2 in the large size is a very large bike, no doubt about that. Very
    > many people do not like LWB because the bikes are so large and consequently
    > difficult to transport.


    There are some Easy Racer owners that have either replaced their bikes
    with a Fold-Rush [1] or purchased a Fold Rush as an additional bike for
    this very reason.

    > The V2 is plenty fast and I can go as fast on it as I want. Frankly, I do
    > not like to ever go much beyond 20 mph. I once went 35 mph on a SWB and
    > scared myself to death....


    "Dead Ed" Dolan is posting from the afterlife?

    [1] <http://www.easyracers.com/fold_rush.htm>.
    --
    Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
    "the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
    wave
    Point" - G. Daniels
     
  19. Edward Dolan

    Edward Dolan Guest

    "Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Edward Dolan wrote:
    >> ...
    >> Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
    >> recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so
    >> Mr.
    >> Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish
    >> up
    >> with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are
    >> getting
    >> on in years and we can't wait for you forever.

    >
    > The remaining assets of Earth Cycles are for sale. If I were
    > independently wealthy I would revive the company. Becoming a recumbent
    > manufacturer is a good way to make a small fortune from a large fortune
    > (ask those who invested in BikeE).

    [...]

    The trick is to figure out how to make a nice recumbent that does not cost
    much. In order to do this you would have to be a smart person. I think
    almost anyone can build a recumbent if price is no object. I am sick to
    death of $2000. recumbents. Where are the $200. recumbents?

    I believe Mr. Sherman could prove to the world how smart he is by designing
    and building a nice recumbent that would only cost $200. The world would
    acclaim him a genius if he would do this. However, if all he can do is come
    up with another $2000. recumbent, then I say let him continue with his
    engineering career. The world does not need any more $2000. recumbents.

    Regards,

    Ed Dolan - Minnesota
     
  20. The fit and finish work look top notch.

    Jim
     
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