Vaccines cause autism--Geier

Discussion in 'Health and medical' started by John, Feb 15, 2004.

  1. John

    John Guest

    Tags:


  2. Anon

    Anon Guest

    On 2004-02-15 08:53:59 -0500, [email protected] (john) said:

    > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever going
    > to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the vaccine program.
    > And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a vaccine
    > program," Geier
    >
    > http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html

    Geier's
    >

    Geier's study is flawed. Analysis here: http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-may03.htm
     
  3. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever going
    > to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the vaccine program.
    > And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a vaccine
    > program," Geier
    >
    >
    http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html

    Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it. Geier
    is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support the
    contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses and
    supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.

    Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.

    And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to beleive that thimersal causes
    autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.

    Jeff
     
  4. "Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
    > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the vaccine
    > > program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a
    > > vaccine program," Geier
    > >
    > >
    >
    http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
    >
    > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
    > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support
    > the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses
    and
    > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
    >
    > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.

    (Jeff, you may want to re-word that).

    > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to
    beleive
    > that thimersal causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.
    >
    > Jeff
     
  5. Identity

    Identity Guest

    Jeff wrote:

    > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
    > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the vaccine
    > > program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a
    > > vaccine program," Geier
    > >
    > >
    > http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
    >
    > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
    > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support
    > the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses and
    > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
    >
    > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.
    >
    > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to beleive that thimersal causes
    > autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.
    >
    > Jeff

    Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.
     
  6. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
    > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the vaccine
    > > program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going to have a
    > > vaccine program," Geier
    > >
    > >
    >
    http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
    >
    > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
    > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support
    > the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses
    and
    > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
    >
    > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.

    I meant ot state that nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that vaccines do not cause
    autism. Thanks Mark.

    > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to
    beleive
    > that thimersal causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.
    >
    > Jeff
     
  7. Hcn

    Hcn Guest

    "Identity" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Jeff wrote:
    ...>
    > Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.
    >

    Proof please... it seems the most recent research counters that statement (by the way, the "1/2" bit
    is due to the mercury atomic weight more than anything else):

    http://www.jfponline.com/content/2004/02/jfp_0204_00094.asp

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14678319&dop-
    t=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14595043&dop-
    t=Abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12949291&dop-
    t=Abstract
     
  8. "Identity" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Jeff wrote:
    >
    > > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
    > > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the
    > > > vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going
    > > > to have a vaccine program," Geier
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
    > >
    > > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
    > > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support
    > > the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses
    and
    > > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
    > >
    > > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.
    > >
    > > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to
    beleive
    > > that thimersal causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with
    science.
    > >
    > > Jeff
    >
    > Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.

    Care to post some real proof that there is a causl relationship?
     
  9. Vaccine-Man

    Vaccine-Man Guest

    Identity <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

    > Mercury can cause autism.

    Please provide references to the peer-reviewed scientific literature that support this assertion.

    > Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.

    Table salt is 1/2 sodium. What is your point?
     
  10. Mark

    Mark Guest

    Identity <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Jeff wrote:
    >
    > > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
    > > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the
    > > > vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going
    > > > to have a vaccine program," Geier
    > > >
    > > >
    > > http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
    > >
    > > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
    > > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support
    > > the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses and
    > > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
    > >
    > > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.
    > >
    > > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to beleive that thimersal
    > > causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.
    > >
    > > Jeff
    >
    > Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.

    Sodium can cause horrendous chemical burns and explosive reactions; table salt is 1/2 sodium.

    Mark, MD
     
  11. Jeff

    Jeff Guest

    "Identity" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]... (...)

    > Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.

    Not really. Elemental mercury behaves different than mercury that is part of a chemical compound.

    You could say that water is 88% oxygen. But oxygen and water behave very differently.

    Jeff
     
  12. "HCN" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:B_7Yb.197998$U%[email protected]_s03...
    >
    > "Identity" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Jeff wrote:
    > ...>
    > > Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.
    > >
    >
    > Proof please... it seems the most recent research counters that statement (by the way, the "1/2"
    > bit is due to the mercury atomic weight more than anything else):

    True, but the idea that it is 1/2 mercury is much scarier than what you said....

    >
    > http://www.jfponline.com/content/2004/02/jfp_0204_00094.asp
    >
    >
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14678319&dop-
    t=Abstract
    >
    >
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=14595043&dop-
    t=Abstract
    >
    >
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12949291&dop-
    t=Abstract
     
  13. Daniel Rubin

    Daniel Rubin Guest

    Table salt, as has been pointed out, is 1/2 sodium.

    Its also 1/2 Cloride -- which causes respritory failure and serious burns.

    "Identity" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Jeff wrote:
    >
    > > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
    > > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the
    > > > vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going
    > > > to have a vaccine program," Geier
    > > >
    > > >
    > >
    http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
    > >
    > > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
    > > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to support
    > > the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making hypotheses
    and
    > > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
    > >
    > > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.
    > >
    > > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to
    beleive
    > > that thimersal causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with
    science.
    > >
    > > Jeff
    >
    > Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.
     
  14. Kathy Cole

    Kathy Cole Guest

    On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 04:39:42 +1300, Identity <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Mercury can cause autism.

    Please post proof from the peer-reviewed medical literature.

    > Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.

    And??
     
  15. taurusrc

    taurusrc Guest

    http://www.saltinstitute.org/15.html Properties of Pure Sodium Chloride Molecular weight -
    NaCl58.4428 Atomic weight - Na22.989768 (39.337%) Atomic weight - Cl35.4527 (60.663%)

    On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 19:15:38 -0600, "Daniel Rubin" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Table salt, as has been pointed out, is 1/2 sodium.
    >
    >Its also 1/2 Cloride -- which causes respritory failure and serious burns.

    Not exactly

    http://www.saltinstitute.org/15.html Properties of Pure Sodium Chloride Molecular weight -
    NaCl58.4428 Atomic weight - Na22.989768 (39.337%) Atomic weight - Cl35.4527 (60.663%)
     
  16. Andrew

    Andrew Guest

    "Jeff" [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.

    Brilliant!

    > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to beleive that thimersal causes
    > autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.

    Except that the signs of ethyl mercury (thimerosal) poisoning are exactly the SAME as the signs of
    autism! I understand your aversion to the phrase thimerosal "causes autism," but apparently there
    has shown to be enough "scientific reason" for serious concern, so that the American Academy of
    Pediatrics (AAP), the US Public Health Service (USPHS).. and the Food and Drug Administration have
    made statements alerting the public and clinicians.

    Therefore, your energies would have more credibility if they would be directed to the advo- cacy of
    nontoxic thimerosal-free vaccines which would to a great extent help to defuse this controversy.

    >
    > Jeff
    >
    >

    ~AH
     
  17. Hcn

    Hcn Guest

    "Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    > "Jeff" [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does not cause autism.
    >
    > Brilliant!
    >
    > > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to
    beleive
    > > that thimersal causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with
    science.
    >
    > Except that the signs of ethyl mercury (thimerosal) poisoning are exactly
    the SAME as the
    > signs of autism!

    Not really.

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf

    http://www.cispimmunize.org/fam/mmr/a_report2.html

    http://www.cispimmunize.org/fam/thimrosal.html

    http://www.aap.org/policy/jointthim.html

    http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/vaccinesafety.htm

    I understand your aversion to the phrase thimerosal "causes autism," but
    > apparently there has shown to be enough "scientific reason" for serious
    concern, so that
    > the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), the US Public Health Service
    (USPHS).. and
    > the Food and Drug Administration have made statements alerting the public
    and clinicians.
    >
    > Therefore, your energies would have more credibility if they would be
    directed to the advo-
    > cacy of nontoxic thimerosal-free vaccines which would to a great extent
    help to defuse this
    > controversy.
    >
    ...

    Then show some kind of documentation for your statements.

    For the record: thimerosal has been used in vaccines since the 1930's... and the MMR has been used
    in the USA since 1971.
     
  18. Pf Riley

    Pf Riley Guest

    On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:21:55 GMT, "Andrew" <[email protected]>
    wrote:
    >
    >"Jeff" [email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >> And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to beleive that thimersal causes
    >> autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with science.
    >
    >Except that the signs of ethyl mercury (thimerosal) poisoning are exactly the SAME as the signs
    >of autism!

    Wrong. This is more bullshit spouted by the uneducated, antivaccine armchair autism theorists,
    along the lines of other such claims such as "MMR contains thimerosal," and "autism experts
    recommend separating the components of MMR." Repeating nonsense over and over again doesn't make it
    become true.

    Read this:

    http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf

    Karin B. Nelson and Margaret L. Bauman. Thimerosal and Autism? Pediatrics, Mar 2003; 111:674 - 679.

    An excerpt follows.

    =============

    ARE THE CLINICAL MANIFESTATIONS OF AUTISM SIMILAR TO THOSE OF RECOGNIZED MERCURY TOXICITY?

    Bernard et al(1) present a table listing ~95 clinical findings they consider to be shared by autism
    and mercury poisoning. Their table does not distinguish typical and characteristic manifestations of
    either disorder from the rare, unusual, and highly atypical.

    In mercury poisoning, the characteristic motor findings are ataxia and dysarthria (Table 1).(5,6)
    These signs, along with tremor, muscle pains, and weakness, are noted on relatively high-dose
    exposure, acute or chronic. In 3 Romanian children accidentally exposed to ethyl mercury in a
    fungicide, these same symptoms were prominent.(7) The outcome of fetal methyl mercury poisoning in
    severe form also included spasticity.(8) In contrast, in autism, the only common motor
    manifestations are repetitive behaviors (stereotypies) such as flapping, circling, or rocking.
    Persons with Asperger syndrome may be clumsy, and hypotonia has been noted in some infants with
    autism; the frequency of clumsiness and hypotonia in autism spectrum disorders is not established.
    No other motor findings are common in autism, and indeed the presence of ataxia or dysarthria in a
    child whose behavior has autistic features should lead to careful medical evaluation for an
    alternative or additional diagnosis.

    The most characteristic sensory finding of mercury poisoning is a highly specific bilateral
    constriction of visual fields.(5,6,9) With lesser exposure there may be compromise of contrast
    sensitivity.(10,11) In addition, there may be paresthesias or, in infants, erythema and pain in
    hands and feet because of peripheral neuropathy. In autism, decreased responsiveness to pain is
    sometimes observed along with hypersensitivity to other sensory stimuli, including hyperacusis. The
    "sensory defensiveness" of autism seems to reflect altered sensory processing within the brain
    rather than peripheral nerve involvement.(12–14)

    Other signs that may appear in children with chronic mercury toxicity, such as hypertension,(15)
    skin eruption,(16) and thrombocytopenia,(17) are seldom seen in autism.

    In relatively mild mercurism in persons without characteristic motor or sensory changes, psychiatric
    symptomatology may be absent, and if present is nonspecific, with findings such as depression,
    anxiety, and irritability.(18–20) There may be impairment of recent memory. Even for individuals
    with known elevated postmortem levels of mercury in brain, it may be impossible to conclude whether
    the nonspecific psychiatric findings they demonstrated in life were the result of mercury
    toxicity.(21)

    When severe mercury poisoning occurs in prenatal life or early infancy, head size tends to be small
    and microcephaly is common.(22) Prenatal exposure to other neurotoxins—lead, alcohol, and
    polychlorinated biphenyls, for example—also predispose to decreased head size. In contrast, in
    autism increasing evidence indicates that head size(23–25) and, as measured by volumetric magnetic
    resonance imaging, brain size(26,27) tends to be larger than population norms.

    At sufficient dose mercury is indeed a neurotoxin, but the typical clinical signs of mercurism are
    not similar to the typical clinical signs of autism.
     
  19. "Daniel Rubin" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Table salt, as has been pointed out, is 1/2 sodium.
    >
    >Its also 1/2 Cloride -- which causes respritory failure and serious burns.

    Everyone keeps harping on table salt, but it seems obvious to me that oxygen is the stuff to watch
    out for. After all, carbon monoxide is deadly and it's half oxygen. Carbon dioxide is two thirds
    oxygen, and it can be even deadlier, felling a person in seconds before they even realize they're
    in danger.

    But the most dangerous one of all is hydrogen dioxide. Thousands die a hideous, gasping death every
    year from inhaling hydrogen dioxide. Sometimes a single breath is all it takes.
     
  20. "Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Except that the signs of ethyl mercury (thimerosal) poisoning are exactly the SAME as the signs
    >of autism!

    Really? I wasn't aware that the signs of autism were numbness, weakness, spastic paralysis, visual
    impairments, blindness, coma, and death.
     
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