Vaccines cause autism--Geier



Dihydrogen monoxide is 2/3rds hydrogen and we all know what that did to the Hindenburg.

"Daniel Rubin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Table salt, as has been pointed out, is 1/2 sodium.
>
> Its also 1/2 Cloride -- which causes respritory failure and serious burns.
>
>
> "Identity" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Jeff wrote:
> >
> > > "john" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > "In my view, this is not a scientific issue. This is about as proven an issue as you're ever
> > > > going to see, and what's occurring here is a cover up under the guise of protecting the
> > > > vaccine program. And I'm for the vaccine program. You keep covering it up and your not going
to
> > > > have a vaccine program," Geier
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
http://www.detnow.com/wxyz/ys_investigations/article/0,2132,WXYZ_15949_2650117,00.html
> > >
> > > Interesting. Geier claims to have evidence that thimersal is still in vaccines. Let's see it.
> > > Geier is correct in one respect. This is not a scientific issue. There is no evidence to
> > > support the contention that thimersal in vaccines causes autism. Science is about making
hypotheses
> and
> > > supporting them with evidence. No evidence, no science.
> > >
> > > Nearly all of the scientific evidence to date shows that autism does
not
> > > cause autism.
> > >
> > > And with the bottom line being tht there is no scientific reason to
> beleive
> > > that thimersal causes autism, Geier's view has nothing to do with
> science.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> >
> > Mercury can cause autism. Thimersal is 1/2 mercury.
>
 
Carey Gregory <[email protected]> wrote:

>hydrogen dioxide.

Nothing like botching a perfectly good quip by screwing it up. Make that _dihydrogen monoxide_.

PS- Thanks to M.P. for jogging my foggy brain. (No doubt caused by my amalgam fillings.)
 
"Carey Gregory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Carey Gregory <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >hydrogen dioxide.
>
> Nothing like botching a perfectly good quip by screwing it up. Make that _dihydrogen monoxide_.
>
> PS- Thanks to M.P. for jogging my foggy brain. (No doubt caused by my amalgam fillings.)

I made the *exact* same mistake and, IIRC, JG corrected me.
 
On 2004-02-17 02:00:25 -0500, Carey Gregory <[email protected]> said:

> "Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Except that the signs of ethyl mercury (thimerosal) poisoning are exactly the SAME as the signs
>> of autism!
>
> Really? I wasn't aware that the signs of autism were numbness, weakness, spastic paralysis, visual
> impairments, blindness, coma, and death.

Well, they're not. However, the conspiracy theorists and junk-science freaks have never let the
facts stand in the way of a good argument. ;-)
 
On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 02:00:25 -0500, Carey Gregory
<[email protected]> wrote:

>"Andrew" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Except that the signs of ethyl mercury (thimerosal) poisoning are exactly the SAME as the signs
>>of autism!
>
>Really? I wasn't aware that the signs of autism were numbness, weakness, spastic paralysis, visual
>impairments, blindness, coma, and death.

This is an example of stupid people (i.e., antivaccine idiots) adjusting the "facts" to fit their
theory, instead of doing what people with brains do, which is to adjust the theory to fit the facts.

PF
 
"Carey Gregory" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Carey Gregory <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >hydrogen dioxide.
>
> Nothing like botching a perfectly good quip by screwing it up. Make that _dihydrogen monoxide_.

Or just hydrogen oxide. The is only one common molecular form of the mixture of hydrogen and oxygen
(though it is not the only one: hydrogen peroxide). They don't call hyrdogen - sulfur mixture
dihyrdrogen monosulfide.

Jeff

> PS- Thanks to M.P. for jogging my foggy brain. (No doubt caused by my amalgam fillings.)
 
Have not yet read the various links, but are the vaccines not given a later date than is thought
could account for autism itself? And related, is it possible the stress of vaccination could cause
regression?

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"MishMish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Have not yet read the various links, but are the vaccines not given a later date than is thought
> could account for autism itself?

Well... there are circumstances where not getting the vaccines and getting the actual diseases
causes regression and some autistic like symptoms. I know of a boy who has a speech/learning
disability because he almost died from meningitis before the HiB was available (also met a pair of
twins who would have had a big brother, except he died from meningitis before they were born). Plus
getting pertussis, measles and mumps has been known to cause neurological damage --- along with
Congenital Rubella Syndrome when pregnant mom has rubella: all because of getting vaccinated too
late, or not at all.

And
> related, is it possible the stress of vaccination could cause regression?
...

No.

There is still no proof that vaccines cause autism... but lots of evidence that the actual diseases
cause neurological damage.
 
HCN, thanks for your response

Did not really address my question, however.

Might first clarify, I do not see a link between the vaccines and autism, and thus consider your
digression onto neurologic conditions which may result from certain disease states irrelevant.

Certainly there seems to be enough confusion in diagnosis and potential etiologies, but I am going
on the assumption that autism is a combination of genetic predisposition and early injury. As
autism and ASD is diagnosed by behaviour I see room for multiple potential etiologies which may
present similarly but not be the same. Indeed, think the variety of co-morbid conditions makes that
fairly likely

None-the-less, seems to me that the vaccines could not be causative for the sole reason they are
given at such a relatively late age.

But that does leave open the possibility of inducing regression. And on that afraid a simple no will
not suffice for me. It may be they do not, but could you possibly give some reasons for your
statement?

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"MishMish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> HCN, thanks for your response
>
> Did not really address my question, however.
>

I replied as best I could given the sentence structure. Here is a hint we give our kids when they
write: read it out loud to see if it makes sence.

> Might first clarify, I do not see a link between the vaccines and autism, and thus consider your
> digression onto neurologic conditions which may result from certain disease states irrelevant.
>

So what? It is to point out that the possibility of neurological dificits are higher with the actual
diseases than the vaccinations.

> Certainly there seems to be enough confusion in diagnosis and potential etiologies, but I am going
> on the assumption that autism is a combination of genetic predisposition and early injury. As
> autism and ASD is diagnosed by behaviour I see room for multiple potential etiologies which may
> present similarly but not be the same. Indeed, think the variety of co-morbid conditions makes
> that fairly likely
>
> None-the-less, seems to me that the vaccines could not be causative for the sole reason they are
> given at such a relatively late age.
>

Huh?

> But that does leave open the possibility of inducing regression. And on that afraid a simple no
> will not suffice for me.

There is no proof that vaccines cause autism. The most common causes of regression are Traumatic
Brain Injury (usually abreviated as TBI, caused by accidents or kids being abused... like shaking
babies) and neurological damage from things like encephalitis and meningitis (which are often
caused by getting the diseases that the vaccines prevent... read up on these diseases at:
http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm )

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/5/1039 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/e-
ntrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12880876&dopt=Abstract http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-
may03.htm http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/2/259
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/5/957

It may be they
> do not, but could you possibly give some reasons for your statement?
>

Which statement?

If you have evidence to the contrary, please tell us what it is.

>
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HCN, first thanks and to clear up a minor point. I had said: "but are the vaccines not given a later
date than is thought could account for autism itself?" Nowhere does that question contain any hint
at the relative value of vaccines, or other disease states, so your comments remian irrelevant.

Nor do I really consider it a "so what." While supplemental information may be appreciated, ignoring
the question itself is not

I realize my style can at times be confusing, but if anything it is more often because I do say what
I intend (the grammar is another factor, but that is correting itself.) And final aside, my
sentences do "make sense" to me, so reading them aloud would not help, except perhaps for the
grammar...

To the point, however. I do not know the cause(s) of autism. I do believe it involves a genetic
presdisposition, but from twin studies think it clear that environmental factors are also involved,
which I translated as early injury. My readings into autism are early and not directed, but the type
of brain changes implicated, from what I gather so far, arise too early in development for the
vaccines to be causative.

If there were any implications in my first question, it was not the relative value of vaccines, but
whether or not the model of abnormal patterns of neuronal connections being laid down in early
development is the most plausible line of thought on the matter

As for regression, I was not speaking of the development of autistic like symptoms in an otherwise
healthy individual, as may be seen with traumatic brain injury, as you note and as I have heard
before. The other circumstance I was (vaguely) familiar with would be reactive attachment disorder.

My question addressed children who are ASD. Regressions do occur, and increased stress may be an
instigator of more overt symptoms. So my question was whether or not the stress of vaccination could
cause expression of more overt symptoms in a previously undiagnosed child.

And no, I have no evidence. It is simply a question. But I do not think it is such an off the wall
question as to be dismissed with a simple "no."

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"MishMish" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> HCN, first thanks and to clear up a minor point. I had said: "but are the vaccines not given a
> later date than is thought could account for autism itself?" Nowhere does that question contain
> any hint at the relative value of vaccines, or other disease states, so your comments remian
> irrelevant.
>
...

First let me clarify... this phrase: "but are the vaccines not given a later date than is thought
could account for autism itself?" ... does not really make sense. But I decided to interpret it to
mean that if vaccines are NOT given... then there could be regression --- which actually DOES
happen. When vaccines are NOT given, then the diseases CAN occur, and then there is a very real
possibility of neurological damage. Many of the vaccine preventable diseases can and do cause
neurological damage. You can read about these possibilities (along with the even smaller chances of
adverse vaccine reactions) here: http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm

Okay one more time: There is NO proof that vaccines have ANY connection with autism.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/5/1039 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/e-
ntrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12880876&dopt=Abstract http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-
may03.htm http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/2/259
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/5/957



'
 
In article <5N5%b.408265$na.796571@attbi_s04>, HCN <[email protected]> wrote:
>"MishMish" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>> HCN, first thanks and to clear up a minor point. I had said: "but are the vaccines not given a
>> later date than is thought could account for autism itself?" Nowhere does that question contain
>> any hint at the relative value of vaccines, or other disease states, so your comments remian
>> irrelevant.
>
>First let me clarify... this phrase: "but are the vaccines not given a later date than is thought
>could account for autism itself?" ... does not really make sense. But I decided to interpret it to
>mean that if vaccines are NOT given... then there could be regression --- which actually DOES
>happen. When vaccines are NOT given, then the diseases CAN occur, and then there is a very real
>possibility of neurological damage. Many of the vaccine preventable diseases can and do cause
>neurological damage.

The problem here is that the original poster is using phrasing that is common in some English-
speaking areas and uncommon in others. Viz:

"are they not" means "aren't they (arnthey)" "do you not" means "don't you (dontcha)" "did
she not" means "didn't she (dinshe)"

The original poster means "Aren't vaccines given at a later date than.."
I.e. "How could vaccines cause autism - they are given at an age when the condition has already
started." So he's pointing out evidence against the "vaccines cause autism" theory, not
promoting it.

I hope this English-to-English translation helps clarify matters. ;-)

>You can read about these possibilities (along with the even smaller chances of adverse vaccine
>reactions) here: http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm
>
>Okay one more time: There is NO proof that vaccines have ANY connection with autism.

And there's quite a lot of good evidence that they don't.

>http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/5/1039 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/-
>entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12880876&dopt=Abstract http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-
>may03.htm http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf
>http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/2/259
>http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/5/957
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <5N5%b.408265$na.796571@attbi_s04>, HCN <[email protected]> wrote:
> >"MishMish" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> >> HCN, first thanks and to clear up a minor point. I had said: "but are the vaccines not given a
> >> later date than is thought could account for autism itself?" Nowhere does that question contain
> >> any hint at the relative value of vaccines, or other disease states, so your comments remian
> >> irrelevant.
> >
> >First let me clarify... this phrase: "but are the vaccines not given a later date than is thought
> >could account for autism itself?" ... does
not
> >really make sense. But I decided to interpret it to mean that if
vaccines
> >are NOT given... then there could be regression --- which actually DOES happen. When vaccines are
> >NOT given, then the diseases CAN occur, and
then
> >there is a very real possibility of neurological damage. Many of the vaccine preventable diseases
> >can and do cause neurological damage.
>
> The problem here is that the original poster is using phrasing that is common in some English-
> speaking areas and uncommon in others. Viz:
>
> "are they not" means "aren't they (arnthey)" "do you not" means "don't you (dontcha)" "did she
> not" means "didn't she (dinshe)"
>
> The original poster means "Aren't vaccines given at a later date than.."
> I.e. "How could vaccines cause autism - they are given at an age when the condition has already
> started." So he's pointing out evidence against the "vaccines cause autism" theory, not
> promoting it.
>
> I hope this English-to-English translation helps clarify matters. ;-)
>

Okay, I think that helps. But I'm not quite sure. The original post was about thimerosal, which at
one time was included in vaccines that are given at 2 months... a time that is long before any usual
autism diagnosis.

> >You can read about these possibilities (along with the even smaller chances of adverse vaccine
> >reactions) here: http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/pink/def_pink_full.htm
> >
> >Okay one more time: There is NO proof that vaccines have ANY connection with autism.
>
> And there's quite a lot of good evidence that they don't.

Clarification noted. thanks

>
> >http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/5/1039
>
>http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_u
ids=12880876&dopt=Abstract
> >http://www.aap.org/profed/thimaut-may03.htm
> >http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/111/3/674.pdf
> >http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/113/2/259
> >http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/5/957
> >
 
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