Variable Pacing Strategy for specific TT

[frenchyge]

Come on Frenchy, I got out of Madison to SCAL! All you have to do is put up with freeway log jams and suspend any notion of owning a house. Of course the real estate bubble is prime to burst so maybe i'll have a chance yet.

I moved here from San Diego county, so I'm quite aware of what I'm missing (and not missing ). I wasn't a cyclist, however, so at the time I didn't view the mountain and canyon roads with the same lust that I do during my current visits back there to see family.

I've attached a spreadsheet of local climbs in my new abode. Highlighted in yellow are the ones we did on today's 40 mile group ride.

Thanks for the salt. Anyone else what a piece of me? Colorado, Alaska, Nepal..... we haven't heard from you yet?

 

[Pureshot78]

I wasn't a cyclist, however, so at the time I didn't view the mountain and canyon roads with the same lust that I do during my current visits back there to see family.

I lived in Southern New Mexico and Phoenix for a combined 8 years and only in the last year of living there did I get the two wheeled itch. Talk about wasted time! That's why after a little more than a year i had to get out of Wisconsin.
P.S. We only 'salt' those we care about.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I've been thinking about TT's and how to properly pace onself.

Lucy, I haven't forgotten about your course. I'll post some thoughts after running a few numbers. When is the event (or events) and do you have a projection yet of your FTP and your weight at that time?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Come on Frenchy, I got out of Madison to SCAL! All you have to do is put up with freeway log jams and suspend any notion of owning a house. Of course the real estate bubble is prime to burst so maybe i'll have a chance yet.

I've attached a spreadsheet of local climbs in my new abode. Highlighted in yellow are the ones we did on today's 40 mile group ride.

Do you ride much in Orange County? I'm bringing a small group down to Laguna Beach for Thanksgiving weekend. I want to take them on a 70-90 mile ride on Saturday and a 40-50 mile ride on Sunday. I have lots of info on rides in the San Diego area, but not so much on rides in Orange County.

 

[asgelle]

Lucy, I haven't forgotten about your course. I'll post some thoughts after running a few numbers. When is the event (or events) and do you have a projection yet of your FTP and your weight at that time?

What was posted was the standard climb, but the race course starts about 14 miles before the climb with about 1300 additional feet of climbing. The race course is the sum of this http://www.swcp.com/~nmts/rides/tijerasTrot.htm and this http://www.swcp.com/~nmts/rides/sandiaCrestClimb.htm Also there is a QOM at the top of the hill around mile 12. This is important because it is followed by about a 1 mile descent and the gentle run up to the final climb. If a rider loses the group over this hill, she will lose a lot of time on the descent or have to put in a big effort to get back on quickly to sit in the draft of the pack on the descent. (All depending on how the group chooses to race of course). Similarly, the section around mile 6 of the climb can be important. There is a false flat, follwed by a descent, then a very steep pitch. If a rider can stay with a group over the false flat, she can sit in on the descent and go at the faster pack speed with less effort and then have more momentum going over the steep pitch. If she loses the group before the descent, again it becomes a bad choice between working very hard to regain the group or losing a lot of time.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

What was posted was the standard climb, but the race course starts about 14 miles before the climb with about 1300 additional feet of climbing. The race course is the sum of this http://www.swcp.com/~nmts/rides/tijerasTrot.htm and this http://www.swcp.com/~nmts/rides/sandiaCrestClimb.htm Also there is a QOM at the top of the hill around mile 12. This is important because it is followed by about a 1 mile descent and the gentle run up to the final climb. If a rider loses the group over this hill, she will lose a lot of time on the descent or have to put in a big effort to get back on quickly to sit in the draft of the pack on the descent. (All depending on how the group chooses to race of course). Similarly, the section around mile 6 of the climb can be important. There is a false flat, follwed by a descent, then a very steep pitch. If a rider can stay with a group over the false flat, she can sit in on the descent and go at the faster pack speed with less effort and then have more momentum going over the steep pitch. If she loses the group before the descent, again it becomes a bad choice between working very hard to regain the group or losing a lot of time.

Hey, thanks for posting the rest of the course, I was about to ask you about it but you were a step ahead!

You realize the race starts practically at my doorstep!

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Lucy, I haven't forgotten about your course. I'll post some thoughts after running a few numbers. When is the event (or events) and do you have a projection yet of your FTP and your weight at that time?

RD - thanks, I appreciate you remembering this, as well, I know teasing flatlanders can become a rather all-encompassing activity...

Anyway, I'm ok with just deconstructing the original climb I posted for now....because the race is at least 6 months away so it is hard for me to say exactly what numbers I'll have. We can revisit the entire course though once I get closer to the race. Or if you want to analyze both now, that's cool too.

 

[frenchyge]

So, is there a TT in addition to the RR? Or is the TT just an effort toward personal bests?

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

So, is there a TT in addition to the RR? Or is the TT just an effort toward personal bests?

For now, just a TT for a PB, which is the climb I posted. What Tony posted though is the real deal, next year's race so that will be my focus once we get closer.

 

[RapDaddyo]

RD - thanks, I appreciate you remembering this, as well, I know teasing flatlanders can become a rather all-encompassing activity...

Anyway, I'm ok with just deconstructing the original climb I posted for now....because the race is at least 6 months away so it is hard for me to say exactly what numbers I'll have. We can revisit the entire course though once I get closer to the race. Or if you want to analyze both now, that's cool too.

I'll look at it in more detail now that I know the full course, but I know one thing already. Even though it's a TT, you will be able to repeatedly exploit your AWC. So, your training plan should include a significant focus on AWC as well as FTP (although I don't think you need to start working on L6 efforts this far out). You will have several opportunities to max out your AWC, especially since each incremental AWC effort is diminished (due to the part of AWC that recovers with a very long half life). If the course were completely flat, I wouldn't say the same thing (although AWC does contribute to FTP).

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

I'll look at it in more detail now that I know the full course, but I know one thing already. Even though it's a TT, you will be able to repeatedly exploit your AWC. So, your training plan should include a significant focus on AWC as well as FTP (although I don't think you need to start working on L6 efforts this far out). You will have several opportunities to max out your AWC, especially since each incremental AWC effort is diminished (due to the part of AWC that recovers with a very long half life). If the course were completely flat, I wouldn't say the same thing (although AWC does contribute to FTP).

Hi...yeah for now, this is strictly a personal TT. Obviously next year it will be the final part of a longer RR, which is a whole challenge in of itself.

I've ridden the course every week since mid-August, (painfully slow at first, better now), so I feel very familiar with it. Now it is a matter of using that familiarity to build an ideal approach, AWC as you mentioned being one important consideration.

Speaking of which, my FTP numbers are just 90% of my best 20-min figures. Is there any reason that would be the case, other than having a relatively high AWC as compared to FTP?

 

[Pureshot78]

Do you ride much in Orange County? I'm bringing a small group down to Laguna Beach for Thanksgiving weekend. I want to take them on a 70-90 mile ride on Saturday and a 40-50 mile ride on Sunday. I have lots of info on rides in the San Diego area, but not so much on rides in Orange County.

I haven't been down to OC since moving here. I live pretty much on the border of LA county and Ventura county which is north and west of LA proper. I live north of Pepperdine (PCH and Malibu Canyon Road) by the 101 freeway if that helps. There are a few roads that cut through the Santa Monica Mts from the ocean and Malibu Canyon Road is one of them. Fortunately I can leave straight from my front door to a variety of rides.

Have you checked out http://www.socalcycling.com ? There are a splattering of group rides on there which might give you a hint for a route down in that area, or if nothing else, point you to a good shop to call for more info.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Speaking of which, my FTP numbers are just 90% of my best 20-min figures. Is there any reason that would be the case, other than having a relatively high AWC as compared to FTP?

Sure, overall fitness. I think you will find that you increase your overall fitness that your MP/duration curve will flatten. AWC has a lot to do with 20min MP and very little to do with 60MP.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

Sure, overall fitness. I think you will find that you increase your overall fitness that your MP/duration curve will flatten. AWC has a lot to do with 20min MP and very little to do with 60MP.

Ok, that makes sense. I ask as I normally don't worry about my 'exact' FTP and rather focus on the progression of my 20 min L4 work. However, when doing a long climb like this, I like having some sort of pacing barometer, and for now at least, it is 90% of 20 min power.

Oh and one other thing here which I've searched for, but not seen exactly.

I tend to associate the term AWC with the cp model, whereas L6 is, to me anyway, associated with Dr. Coggan/Hunter Allen's training levels.

Is there a correlation or equivalence between AWC per the CP model and 1 min power on the Coggan/Allen power profile....ie AWC of x ~ 1 min power of z?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Ok, that makes sense. I ask as I normally don't worry about my 'exact' FTP and rather focus on the progression of my 20 min L4 work. However, when doing a long climb like this, I like having some sort of pacing barometer, and for now at least, it is 90% of 20 min power.

That will work fine for now. As you approach a key event (especially a TT), you may want to nail down your max power for the approximate duration of the event. This is because it is very costly to overestimate your max power for the duration of the event and end up having to cut way back in the 2nd half of the ride. Being wrong on your sustainable power for the duration of the ride offsets any gains from variable power pacing.

I tend to associate the term AWC with the cp model, whereas L6 is, to me anyway, associated with Dr. Coggan/Hunter Allen's training levels.

Is there a correlation or equivalence between AWC per the CP model and 1 min power on the Coggan/Allen power profile....ie AWC of x ~ 1 min power of z?

AWC stands for anaerobic work capacity and is therefore expressed in work terms as opposed to watts. And even though it is best trained with L6 efforts (30s-3m), it is a measure of your power above your anaerobic threshold (~FTP). IOW, anything that is not sustainable aerobically is by definition anaerobic. In a TT with variable grades and/or wind, the optimal pacing strategy is often to ride certain sections well above FTP. I don't hesitate to ride certain segments of a course at 150%FTP, but this is not a recommended strategy for newbies. If one hasn't practiced riding a course with such a wide range of power (e.g., from 150%FTP to 50%FTP), they run a high risk of basically blowing up. The lowest risk strategy is to know one's sustainable power for the estimated duration of the ride and then ride the course at a constant power. It's just not the fastest way to ride the course. It's sort of like what you say to a newbie learning to ride a crit. When you tell them to take a corner at full speed and accelerate at full power from the apex, they say, "Isn't there a high risk of losing my line and wiping out?" And you answer, "Yes."

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

That will work fine for now. As you approach a key event (especially a TT), you may want to nail down your max power for the approximate duration of the event. This is because it is very costly to overestimate your max power for the duration of the event and end up having to cut way back in the 2nd half of the ride. Being wrong on your sustainable power for the duration of the ride offsets any gains from variable power pacing.

AWC stands for anaerobic work capacity and is therefore expressed in work terms as opposed to watts. And even though it is best trained with L6 efforts (30s-3m), it is a measure of your power above your anaerobic threshold (~FTP). IOW, anything that is not sustainable aerobically is by definition anaerobic. In a TT with variable grades and/or wind, the optimal pacing strategy is often to ride certain sections well above FTP. I don't hesitate to ride certain segments of a course at 150%FTP, but this is not a recommended strategy for newbies. If one hasn't practiced riding a course with such a wide range of power (e.g., from 150%FTP to 50%FTP), they run a high risk of basically blowing up. The lowest risk strategy is to know one's sustainable power for the estimated duration of the ride and then ride the course at a constant power. It's just not the fastest way to ride the course. It's sort of like what you say to a newbie learning to ride a crit. When you tell them to take a corner at full speed and accelerate at full power from the apex, they say, "Isn't there a high risk of losing my line and wiping out?" And you answer, "Yes."

Ha! I love the pragmatism you showed in that last answer vis-a-vis losing one's line and crashing!

Such comfort you bring to newbies I'm sure....

Anyway, I am convinced of the variable pacing strategy because of the physics pertaining to power, grade/incline, and speed - stuff you obviously already now. What I think I need is a strategy as to how much, where, and how long.

My last ride, not today's but yesterday's was on the course, and during the second half I experimented with this VP approach. Anywhere I saw that speed was relatively higher (for me anyway) with say 70-80% of FTP, then I rode as such. When I saw speed was dropping, in the steepest sections obviously, I tried to ride those at 110-130% of FTP (I would have gone higher but didn't have much left in the tank by then). While my average power was down from the week before, my normal power was similar as was time on the 2nd half of the course.

The thing about this climb here is I really feel the altitude saps some of my ability, as well as obvious fatigue, at or above 9000 feet. I almost feel as though some sort of adjustment or accounting for this is in order.


EDIT: in retrospect, what yesterday's little experiment with VP was more about in my case, was more of keeping speed constant, and not power!

 

[frenchyge]

Anyway, I am convinced of the variable pacing strategy because of the physics pertaining to power, grade/incline, and speed - stuff you obviously already now. What I think I need is a strategy as to how much, where, and how long.

The grade you posted appeared pretty even, except for the dip in the middle. Any additional variations in power will probably relate to wind exposure and/or direction, or maybe changes in road surface, rather than grade.

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

The grade you posted appeared pretty even, except for the dip in the middle. Any additional variations in power will probably relate to wind exposure and/or direction, or maybe changes in road surface, rather than grade.

I know it looks that way, and from your position, I'd think the same thing. However, doing the course every week I have definitely found variability. For instance, the second half of the course is steeper, but also the difficulty is compounded by the higher altitude. Another interesting thing, is you come across some switchbacks, which I notice are steeper than the stretch of road connecting them, etc.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Anyway, I am convinced of the variable pacing strategy because of the physics pertaining to power, grade/incline, and speed - stuff you obviously already now. What I think I need is a strategy as to how much, where, and how long.

There's no question about the merits of VP pacing. The challenge is developing a plan and then executing it.

My last ride, not today's but yesterday's was on the course, and during the second half I experimented with this VP approach. Anywhere I saw that speed was relatively higher (for me anyway) with say 70-80% of FTP, then I rode as such. When I saw speed was dropping, in the steepest sections obviously, I tried to ride those at 110-130% of FTP (I would have gone higher but didn't have much left in the tank by then).

That's very smart to practice such pacing strategies early and often. It's a lot less stressful to ride at 150%FTP for a minute in a steep section if you know from practice rides that you can indeed recover and ride the remainder of the course at or near FTP.

The thing about this climb here is I really feel the altitude saps some of my ability, as well as obvious fatigue, at or above 9000 feet.

The altitude change and implications for power output is a factor in developing a pacing strategy, as are grades and wind. But, without an accurate estimate of one's sustainable power for the duration of the ride and one's MP/duration curve, it doesn't make much sense to try and develop a sophisticated pacing plan. You might want to begin now to identify landmarks on the course that correspond to significant changes in grade. This can be difficult without some way of accurately measuring grade. For example, I don't trust what my eyes are telling me when it comes to grade. Pacing strategies are incredibly sensitive to grade (even 1% differences matter).

 

[Lucy_Aspenwind]

That's very smart to practice such pacing strategies early and often. It's a lot less stressful to ride at 150%FTP for a minute in a steep section if you know from practice rides that you can indeed recover and ride the remainder of the course at or near FTP.

Thanks, and it sure does seem like good practice. For one, after working so much on the trainer (as well as the first half of the course) in a much more narrow powerband, it is quite a change to say, do the easier section at 130 w, then 230 w on the steeper parts.

The altitude change and implications for power output is a factor in developing a pacing strategy, as are grades and wind. But, without an accurate estimate of one's sustainable power for the duration of the ride and one's MP/duration curve, it doesn't make much sense to try and develop a sophisticated pacing plan. You might want to begin now to identify landmarks on the course that correspond to significant changes in grade. This can be difficult without some way of accurately measuring grade. For example, I don't trust what my eyes are telling me when it comes to grade. Pacing strategies are incredibly sensitive to grade (even 1% differences matter).

Well I have plenty of ride files as well as a CP model to work with. The things that I find more challenging are determining how much I can go over FTP, for how long, and how often. It vaguely seems like match analysis, but in advance!

Being as this is getting more complicated and not necessarily clearer, I'm considering a different approach.

More or less, targeting a certain speed and try to maintain it as much as possible. Thus I'd end up riding the easier spots at less power, and the harder ones at higher watts.