various questions about appropriate torques

Ant · Jun 4, 2003

in the general scheme of things, im a bike mech newbie, so take this with a grain of salt, and help
me see the light:

ive just taken a job at a bike store, and am in the slow process of learning how They put bikes
together, not how I put bikes together. i always tightened my fasteners the same, as far as i can
tell, and have never had a problem. it seems that the bike shop wants everything
super-almost-stripped tight. for instance, i always cinched down my brake pads with an allen wrench,
and left it at that. they are on there pretty tight. however, one fellow came over and using both
hands wrenched each one out of line. he was trying pretty hard. he said if you can move it with your
hands, its not tight enough. i really dont see the pads ever seeing anything near this type of
force. what gives?

also, stem wedges. i always cranked 'em down, but if i really wrenched the bars with some
serious power, i could move the handlebar. they dont like this idea. same with every other
fastener, it seems.

is this really necessary? i dont have a torque wrench to check myself, but i have to crank like
nobody's business to get things as tight as they want them, and it seems like overkill, as well as
asking for stripped threads.

curious, anthony

David Damerell · Jun 5, 2003

ant <[email protected]> wrote:
>also, stem wedges. i always cranked 'em down, but if i really wrenched the bars with some
>serious power, i could move the handlebar. they dont like this idea. same with every other
>fastener, it seems.

You are right and they are wrong. In an accident, your guts may collide with the end of the bars.
Given a choice between the bars twisting or your liver giving way...
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?

Matt Locker · Jun 5, 2003

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David:

I don't think I buy into this argument, although I've certainly heard it before. What is going to
prevent the bars from turning if you have the stem tight? Is it the wheel on the road? If that's the
case then the bars are on the road and one very large massive globe will prevent any rotation. Now
let's presume you get into a situation where the wheel is truly locked up but the bars will still be
free to turn IF you can make them turn with your gizzard. Will it happen? Probably not. I suspect
that any soft tissues or organs are not going to be tough enough to rotate the stem in the steerer.
Maybe your ribs will do that successfully but spleens, etc I don't think are strong enough.

That brings us to what can happen if your stem comes loose in the steerer. My suspicions are that's
much more likely to cause major damage to all kinds of body parts.

I personally think tighter is better. I also personally believe a torque wrench applied properly to
the appropriate torque is best.

MOO, Matt

David Damerell wrote:

>ant <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>also, stem wedges. i always cranked 'em down, but if i really wrenched the bars with some
>>serious power, i could move the handlebar. they dont like this idea. same with every other
>>fastener, it seems.
>>
>>
>
>You are right and they are wrong. In an accident, your guts may collide with the end of the bars.
>Given a choice between the bars twisting or your liver giving way...
>
>

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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <title></title>
</head> <body> David: I don't think I buy into this argument, although I've certainly heard
it before. What is going to prevent the bars from turning if you have the stem tight? Is
it the wheel on the road? If that's the case then the bars are on the road and one very large
massive globe will prevent any rotation. Now let's presume you get into a situation where the
wheel is truly locked up but the bars will still be free to turn IF you can make them turn with your
gizzard. Will it happen? Probably not. I suspect that any soft tissues or organs
are not going to be tough enough to rotate the stem in the steerer. Maybe your ribs will do
that successfully but spleens, etc I don't think are strong enough. That brings us to what
can happen if your stem comes loose in the steerer. My suspicions are that's much more likely
to cause major damage to all kinds of body parts. I personally think tighter is better.
I also personally believe a torque wrench applied properly to the appropriate torque is
best. MOO, Matt David Damerell wrote: <blockquote type="cite"
cite="midPaA*[email protected]"> <pre wrap="">ant <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:[email protected]"><[email protected]></a> wrote: </pre>
<blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">also, stem wedges. i always cranked 'em down, but if i really
wrenched the bars with some serious power, i could move the handlebar. they dont like this idea.
same with every other fastener, it seems. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""> You are right
and they are wrong. In an accident, your guts may collide with the end of the bars. Given a choice
between the bars twisting or your liver giving way... </pre> </blockquote> </body> </html>

--------------020101070605030501030007--

Doug Huffman · Jun 6, 2003

IIRC, in my copy of Machinery's Handbook, 19 ed. there is a statement to the effect that 'an
experienced mechanic can pull a fastener less than 5/8" to rated torque without a torque wrench'.

"ant" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>
> is this really necessary? i dont have a torque wrench to check myself, but i have to crank like
> nobody's business to get things as tight as they want them, and it seems like overkill, as well as
> asking for stripped threads.

Tom Paterson · Jun 6, 2003

>From: "Doug Huffman"

>IIRC, in my copy of Machinery's Handbook, 19 ed. there is a statement to the effect that 'an
>experienced mechanic can pull a fastener less than 5/8" to rated torque without a torque wrench'.

That may be, but "my" car mechanic told me of a demonstration at a Bear alignment school where three
or four experienced mech's were asked to tighten a bolt to a certain spec. Unscrewing with a torque
wrench showed a wide diversity of "opinion", and no one happened to hit the number asked for. FWIW.
--Tom Paterson

Jim Price · Jun 6, 2003

Tom Paterson wrote:
> That may be, but "my" car mechanic told me of a demonstration at a Bear alignment school where
> three or four experienced mech's were asked to tighten a bolt to a certain spec. Unscrewing with a
> torque wrench showed a wide diversity of "opinion", and no one happened to hit the number asked
> for. FWIW.

I'm sorry, they haven't got a chance. Of measuring how tight it was done up by undoing it with a
torque wrench, that is. The measurement you'll get when undoing it will be the torque required to
overcome static friction, whereas when you were doing it up, you'd be moving it. Even to get the
same measurement twice when doing it up with a torque wrench would be difficult, as static friction
is awkward like that.

Jim Price

Peter Headland · Jun 6, 2003

Sounds like your new colleagues are idiots. Overtightening is nearly as bad as undertightening
(bolts that are tightened to their elastic limit will fatigue and fracture under load). In
these days of lightweight parts, and lacking daily practice, (OK, and liking gadgets) I use
torque wrenches for everything. This has taught me that I tended to overtighten stuff when I
judged it by feel.

Curiously, the one place where I diverge substantially from recommended torque settings is the stem
binder - as others have noted, this interface takes modest loads when riding and it is *really* good
if it can slip in a crash.

Jeff Wills · Jun 6, 2003

[email protected] (ant) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> is this really necessary? i dont have a torque wrench to check myself, but i have to crank like
> nobody's business to get things as tight as they want them, and it seems like overkill, as well as
> asking for stripped threads.
>
> curious, anthony

Long ago, when I was learning bike assembly, we had a chart of CPSC (I think) mandated torque values
for most bike parts. I would think that Sutherland's or Barnett's would have a similar chart.

I'd hate to try to defend myself on the basis of "we crank on the bolts until they're tight". Torque
wrenches are cheaper than lawsuits.

Jeff

Scoochiro · Jun 6, 2003

[email protected] (Peter Headland) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Sounds like your new colleagues are idiots. Overtightening is nearly as bad as undertightening
> (bolts that are tightened to their elastic limit will fatigue and fracture under load). In these
> days of lightweight parts, and lacking daily practice, (OK, and liking gadgets) I use torque
> wrenches for everything. This has taught me that I tended to overtighten stuff when I judged it
> by feel.
>
> Curiously, the one place where I diverge substantially from recommended torque settings is the
> stem binder - as others have noted, this interface takes modest loads when riding and it is
> *really* good if it can slip in a crash.

I agree very much re: the utility of a torque wrench. I know Sheldon thinks them unnecessary, and I
suppose that exposes some ambiguity in the term "unnecessary." I rode for years, did lots of bike
work for myself and friends, with no concerns about torque values.

But, each fastener has a "best" value, and I likewise have learned that my "feel" sometimes is
probably good enough but not consistently at or near the values one sees recommended in
manuals, etc.

So, if a torque wrench is unnecessary, fine; I certainly would never discourage anyone from using
one, and I have found mine a lot of fun (and somewhat reassuring).

But, I'm particularly interested in comments on stem binder tightness.

I am aware of a general desire that this bolt be somewhat on the "under tight" side of things
because, I've been led to believe, of the chance of a wreck, in which case you would *want* the bars
to rotate.

OTOH, though, that sure is a crappy bolt to get loose without warning. I check things before I ride,
sorta, but that bolt gets a lot of vibration, won't make itself visibly apparent as loose, and could
leave you in the deep *hit if it totally loosened.

Off the top of my head, I think the values for that bolt are often around 100 in/lbs. Why not
just stick with that? How much less would still be OK? (Obviously, too much more and you could
hurt the steerer.)

Ken Harper

Sheldon Brown · Jun 7, 2003

Quoth Ken Harper:

> I agree very much re: the utility of a torque wrench. I know Sheldon thinks them unnecessary, and
> I suppose that exposes some ambiguity in the term "unnecessary." I rode for years, did lots of
> bike work for myself and friends, with no concerns about torque values.
>
> But, each fastener has a "best" value, and I likewise have learned that my "feel" sometimes is
> probably good enough but not consistently at or near the values one sees recommended in
> manuals, etc.

This is assuming that the "best" value and the manufacturer's recommendation are one and the same.
This is not necessarily the case. There is individual variance in tolerances of manufactured parts,
and parts manufacturers' priorities may be different from yours. Likewise, the manufacturer has no
control over the type of lubrication you apply to the threads and bolt heads, and must assume that
lots of boneheads will install fasteners without proper lubrication.

To take the example of the stem binder, nobody will hold the stem maker at fault if you impale
yourself on the handlebar in a crash, but they might if the stem were to slip and cause you to fall
down. Thus, when the manufacturer weighs the pros and cons in developing a range of torque
recommendations, the risk of imapalement (or just of bending a handlebar) has no weight, because
this is "not their problem."

Another example is crank fixing bolts (hold the crank to the BB.) Manufacturers' torque specs don't
differentiate between the left and right sides, but it really makes sense to tighten the left side
harder than the right.

(When they loosen up, it's always the left side. Overtightening the right side may cause
chainline issues.)

> So, if a torque wrench is unnecessary, fine; I certainly would never discourage anyone from using
> one, and I have found mine a lot of fun (and somewhat reassuring).
>
> But, I'm particularly interested in comments on stem binder tightness.
>
> I am aware of a general desire that this bolt be somewhat on the "under tight" side of things
> because, I've been led to believe, of the chance of a wreck, in which case you would *want* the
> bars to rotate.
>
> OTOH, though, that sure is a crappy bolt to get loose without warning. I check things before I
> ride, sorta, but that bolt gets a lot of vibration, won't make itself visibly apparent as loose,
> and could leave you in the deep *hit if it totally loosened.

Has anybody ever had a reasonably tightened stem spontaneously loosen up from vibration?

> Off the top of my head, I think the values for that bolt are often around 100 in/lbs. Why not just
> stick with that? How much less would still be OK? (Obviously, too much more and you could hurt the
> steerer.)

This should be judged by gripping the front wheel betwixt your knees, and trying to turn the
handlebars. It should take considerable, but not brutal force to make the bars rotate.

I used to deliberately keep the stem on my MTB loose so that I could fairly easily rotate the
handlebars 90 degrees for more compact storage. (This setting was _much_ looser than I'd do it on a
customer's bike.)

Actually, I did have it twist a bit while riding a couple of times from hitting rocks and the like,
but this was only a minor inconvenience, and never cause me to lose control.

Sheldon "Rote Numbers Are An Oversimplification" Brown
+--------------------------------------------------+
| For every complex problem, there is a solution | that is simple, neat, and wrong. | --H. L.
| Mencken |
+--------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

John Forrest To · Jun 7, 2003

Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

[about cranks/crank fixing bolts]
> (When they loosen up, it's always the left side.

Twice in my life I've had a crank get loose and both times it was the left. I though it was just
"luck" (in that I could still pedal home with one leg) but from what you wrote, there must be a
reason. Why is it?

> Has anybody ever had a reasonably tightened stem spontaneously loosen up from vibration?

I'm not sure, but a number of years ago I was riding a bicycle I use a lot and the stem just came
loose and I couldn't control the bike very much at all. It was seemingly "out of the blue." When I
got home I pulled the stem and it seemed fine, the bolt was fine (stem and bolt are still on the
bike....hmmm...maybe I'd better replace that). There was an inordinate amount of rust between the
stem and steerer tube, which was weird because I'd lubed it with grease. I never exactly figured out
what was going on. ( I tend to tighten the stems firmly but not as tight as possible. I can move the
wheel if I lock it between my legs and push hard on the bars. But it won't turn easily.)

The only thing I can speculate is that some of the surface plating on the stem rubbed off and
eventually rusted, leaving the connection loose. But how could it rub off if there is no movement?
The stem is a Rictchy steel, and there is some anodization or plating that has flaked off since. So
I really don't know why this happened.

JT

--
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Sheldon Brown · Jun 7, 2003

I observed:

> [about cranks/crank fixing bolts]
>=20
>>(When they loosen up, it's always the left side.

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> Twice in my life I've had a crank get loose and both times it was the left. I though it was just
> "luck" (in that I could still pedal home with one leg) but from what you wrote, there must be a
> reason. Why is it?

I don't know the reason.

>>Has anybody ever had a reasonably tightened stem spontaneously loosen up from vibration?
>=20 20
> I'm not sure, but a number of years ago I was riding a bicycle I use a lot and the stem just came
> loose and I couldn't control the bike very much at all. It was seemingly "out of the blue." When I
> got home I pulled the stem and it seemed fine, the bolt was fine (stem and bolt are still on the
> bike....hmmm...maybe I'd better replace that). There was an inordinate amount of rust between the
> stem and steerer tube, which was weird because I'd lubed it with grease. I never exactly figured
> out what was going on. ( I tend to tighten the stems firmly but not as tight as possible. I can
> move the wheel if I lock it between my legs and push hard on the bars. But it won't turn easily.)
>=20
> The only thing I can speculate is that some of the surface plating on the stem rubbed off and
> eventually rusted, leaving the connection loose. But how could it rub off if there is no movement?
> The stem is a Rictchy steel, and there is some anodization or plating that has flaked off since.
> So I really don't know why this happened.

Are you short? There is a peculiar problem that sometimes occurs with=20 short riders who want to
lower their stems. Steerers are generally=20 butted at the bottom, so there's a transitional area
near the bottom=20 where the hole has a conical shape. If you push the (quill) stem all=20 the way
down so it bottoms out into this narrowing section, only the=20 bottom edge/corner of the wedge will
engage. Indeed, you can get it=20 seriously tight, but then have it fail because you're trying to
clamp=20 into a tapered section.

I forgot to mention in my previous posting that, while I've never known=20 of a too loose stem
(assuming it had been tightened at all) causing an=20 accident, it is not at all unusual to see
(threaded) fork steerers that=20 have been damaged by overtightening the stem. Bulged-out steerers
are=20 all too common, resulting from overenthusiastic tightening.

Sheldon "L'=E9spirit de L'=E9scalier" Brown +------------------------------------------+
| On Monday, when the sun is hot, | I wonder to myself a lot: | 'Now is it true, or is it not, |
| 'That what is which and which is what?' | --A. A. Milne |
+------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Benjamin Weiner · Jun 7, 2003

Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> > Twice in my life I've had a crank get loose and both times it was the left. I though it was just
> > "luck" (in that I could still pedal home with one leg) but from what you wrote, there must be a
> > reason. Why is it?

> I don't know the reason.

The left side transmits drive torque through the crank-spindle interface, so it has different
loading which presumably wiggles the crank back and forth enough to loosen, especially if not
properly tightened. This is actually in the FAQ, http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8f.11.html by
Jobst: "As any bicycle mechanic can tell you, crank bolts are often appreciably looser after use,
the left one more so than the right. This occurs because the left crank transmits torque and bending
simultaneously while the right crank transmits these forces one at a time. The right crank puts no
significant torque into the spindle."

I know you don't believe in torque wrenches on bikes, but for those of us with less experience a
torque wrench is useful to find out just how hard you're supposed to be tightening a crankbolt -
most people, including me, are surprised by how much effort it takes.

As for other fasteners, I know the stresses in a structure can be affected by the torque on the
bolts holding it together. I don't know if component manufacturers are doing the finite element
analysis necessary to model this. In any case, I hope manufacturers are designing a sufficient
margin for error into structures like, say, a stem faceplate.

A Muzi · Jun 8, 2003

> >From: "Doug Huffman" IIRC, in my copy of Machinery's Handbook, 19 ed. there is a statement to
the
> >effect that 'an experienced mechanic can pull a fastener less than 5/8"
to
> >rated torque without a torque wrench'.

"Tom Paterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> That may be, but "my" car mechanic told me of a demonstration at a Bear alignment school where
> three or four experienced mech's were asked to
tighten a
> bolt to a certain spec. Unscrewing with a torque wrench showed a wide
diversity
> of "opinion", and no one happened to hit the number asked for. FWIW. --Tom Paterson

We occasionally put a torque wrench in a vise so the audience can see the scale but not the mechainc
pulling it. When asked to show a given number the range is pretty wide. Some guys are very very good
consistently, others are not.

--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

John Forrest To · Jun 8, 2003

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> > a number of years ago I was riding a bicycle I use a lot and the stem just came loose and I
> > couldn't control the bike very much at all. It was seemingly "out of the blue." When I got home
> > I pulled the stem and it seemed fine, the
> bolt was fine (stem and bolt
> > are still on the bike

> Are you short?

Mid-sized. The bike is a 57cm, so I don't think butting in the steerer tube was the issue.

JT

Sheldon Brown · Jun 8, 2003

From: "A Muzi"
>
>>We occasionally put a torque wrench in a vise so the audience can see the scale but not the
>>mechainc pulling it. When asked to show a given number the range is pretty wide. Some guys are
>>very very good consistently, others are not.

Tom Paterson wrote:
>
> Thanks. Were the guys who couldn't guess torque as confident as the guys who could, before being
> shown one of their human shortcomings? (One point of the demonstration I referred to.)
>
> Any correlation between time spent wrenching and ability to guess torque? Thanks again. --Tom
> Paterson

I've been wrenching for quite a while, and many folks consider me to be a pretty good mechanic, but
I would do lousy at this, because I don't do it by the numbers, but by feel.

This goes to the fundamental fallacy of rote torque-wrench users, the assumption that some number
printed on a piece of paper can tell you the optimal amount to tighten a fastener.

Sheldon "Experience Counts" Brown +-----------------------------------+
| Fashion exists for those people | who have no style of their own. | --John Moore |
+-----------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772
FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

A Muzi · Jun 8, 2003

> From: "A Muzi"
> >>We occasionally put a torque wrench in a vise so the audience can see
the
> >>scale but not the mechainc pulling it. When asked to show a given number
the
> >>range is pretty wide. Some guys are very very good consistently, others
are
> >>not.

> Tom Paterson wrote:
> > Thanks. Were the guys who couldn't guess torque as confident as the guys
who
> > could, before being shown one of their human shortcomings? (One point of
the
> > demonstration I referred to.) Any correlation between time spent wrenching and ability to guess
torque?

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've been wrenching for quite a while, and many folks consider me to be a pretty good mechanic,
> but I would do lousy at this, because I don't do it by the numbers, but by feel.
>
> This goes to the fundamental fallacy of rote torque-wrench users, the assumption that some number
> printed on a piece of paper can tell you the optimal amount to tighten a fastener.
>
> Sheldon "Experience Counts" Brown

A very good point. I think we might be more in agreement than not.

I also feel I am a good judge of torque after a lifetime of car and bicycle wrenching. A good part
of that judgement comes from early errors I admit. Had I never had a part loosen or if I had never
snapped off a fastener head I would not be as acurate now.

But in a shop setting, how do I quantify how tight I want my employees to assemble a BB cup
into a frame? How can I maintain a uniform standard for crank bolt tightness? I'm not sure I
want a first-year employee taking an intuitive approach to that and I don't want to do every
fastener myself.

Torque wrenches are good for that, occasionally checking for uiniformity of work across
several people.

Do I use a torque wrench all day? I do not. But they have their place and I'm glad we do
occasionally entertain ourselves with it.

ps to Tom: Yes, Sheldon's right, experience counts.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

Scoochiro · Jun 9, 2003

Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
>
> This is assuming that the "best" value and the manufacturer's recommendation are one and the same.
> This is not necessarily the case. There is individual variance in tolerances of manufactured
> parts, and parts manufacturers' priorities may be different from yours. Likewise, the manufacturer
> has no control over the type of lubrication you apply to the threads and bolt heads, and must
> assume that lots of boneheads will install fasteners without proper lubrication.
>
> To take the example of the stem binder, nobody will hold the stem maker at fault if you impale
> yourself on the handlebar in a crash, but they might if the stem were to slip and cause you to
> fall down. Thus, when the manufacturer weighs the pros and cons in developing a range of torque
> recommendations, the risk of imapalement (or just of bending a handlebar) has no weight, because
> this is "not their problem."
>

My understanding is that the torque values one commonly sees, such as those of Barnetts, Park, etc.,
are already on the low end of things.

And I would think that sound engineering would mean that these values do take into account variances
that are reasonable to anticipate, such as tolerances of parts.

I would agree that a given torque value is not like hitting a target dead center with an arrow; it's
more like making the bowling ball go down the lane and staying out of the gutters.

But if I can safely assume that published torque values tend to the lower end of things, and if I
can then have the knowledge that the fasteners on my bike are all torqued, per my torque wrench, to
those values (give or take a small measurement margin of error), then I *feel* better than if, say,
I try to understand your view of how much force is the right amount applied to the handlebars before
they rotate in the steerer. I really, honestly, am not sure I would know what that meant, and I'm
not sure I would come even close to hitting it the same time after time.

I'm a fanatic about having my stem aligned with the front wheel, and so I often tinker with it quite
a lot after loosening it. For a few miles, I will ride with it only semi-tight, to get the alignment
right, then tighten it down. At least a few times, those semi-tight instances have turned into
semi-loose. Of course, I knew full well it wasn't safe to really ride for any distance, but I stand
by my earlier comment -- that would be bad news if it really *did* get too loose too quickly.

With Sheldon's amount of repetition, I'm sure he can get it right by feel. I *feel* better knowing
it's right.

Take your pick.

Ken Harper

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