Vegetable oil for your chain - WHY NOT?



J

John Henderson

Guest
Marcin J. wrote:

> I don't know a lot about biochemistry and my English is not
> fluent but I know something about polymerization. Lets start
> from the background. Natural oils are fats (usually). Fats are
> esters of glycerine and fatty acids. Fatty acids could be
> saturated (only single carbon-carbon bonds) or unsaturated (1,
> 2 or 3 C=C bonds). The higher content of unsaturated bonds -
> the higher ability to polymerize and other reactions.
> Polymerization is responsible for this sticky mass mentioned
> above. Thus I suggest searching for an oil with the smallest
> content of C=C bounds. A book of organic chemistry I have
> mentions two candidates: oil from palm seeds (not palm oil)
> and coconut oil (>75% of saturated acids). Saturated fats are
> not popular these days, if you find something let us know.


Arguably, the best lubricating oils are the synthetic esters
used in jet engines. These used to form one of the base-stocks
in Mobil 1 trisynthetic, but are no longer used there due to
cost, according to many reports. They are polar, and bond
electrostatically to metals.

These days, I use Motul 8100 ester-based engine oil, including
for bicycle chain lubrication. I believe it's ultimately
derived from coconut oil.

John
 
B

Bill Sornson

Guest
Marcin J. wrote:
> I don't know a lot about biochemistry and my English is not fluent
> but I know something about polymerization. Lets start from the
> background. Natural oils are fats (usually). Fats are esters of
> glycerine and fatty acids. Fatty acids could be saturated (only
> single carbon-carbon bonds) or unsaturated (1, 2 or 3 C=C bonds). The
> higher content of unsaturated bonds - the higher ability to
> polymerize and other reactions. Polymerization is responsible for
> this sticky mass mentioned above. Thus I suggest searching for an oil
> with the smallest content of C=C bounds. A book of organic chemistry
> I have mentions two candidates: oil from palm seeds (not palm oil)
> and coconut oil (>75% of saturated acids). Saturated fats are not
> popular these days, if you find something let us know.


Too bad you're not fluent! (Sheesh :) )

Bill "you right good" S.
 
V

Vincent Wilcox

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
>
> A local motorcycle mechanic who repaired B-29 engines in the war of
> the Pacific told me that if the banana oil claim was true, then a
> Model T could have done the same thing.
>


Presumably this was a diesel engined Land Rover, bearing in mind the
original diesel engine was demonstrated running on Peanut oil. A Model T
would not be able to run on oil since it requires ignition via a spark
rather than ignition via compression.

In theory my Renault vans would run on vegetable oil maybe only needing
some paraffin for the winter to thin the oil. They are both old and do
not have common rail injection which now makes this no longer feasible.
 
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:25:37 +0100, Vincent Wilcox <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> A local motorcycle mechanic who repaired B-29 engines in the war of
>> the Pacific told me that if the banana oil claim was true, then a
>> Model T could have done the same thing.
>>

>
>Presumably this was a diesel engined Land Rover, bearing in mind the
>original diesel engine was demonstrated running on Peanut oil. A Model T
>would not be able to run on oil since it requires ignition via a spark
>rather than ignition via compression.
>
>In theory my Renault vans would run on vegetable oil maybe only needing
>some paraffin for the winter to thin the oil. They are both old and do
>not have common rail injection which now makes this no longer feasible.


Dear Vincent,

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

The ad, as I recall, indicated that the banana oil was used for
lubrication, not fuel.

Google for "Land Rover" and "banana oil" and you'll see that the ad
was boasting about ruggedness and field service, not alternate fuels.

I can't find the actual ad, but it ran in the National Geographic
years ago. Possibly someone with a dusty collection of magazines might
find it.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:50:46 GMT, [email protected] (BigBen)
wrote:

>On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 04:25:47 GMT, Werehatrack
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Many are hydrated and/or hydrophilic; they contain water and/or will
>>actively absorb it, and will promote corrosion. (Side note: Most

>
>Try mixing olive oil with water, and tell about the result.
>
>There is a saying in Portugal about olive oil, water, and liying - I'm
>not saying you're liying, but the saying tells about the result you'll
>get trying to mix olive oil and water :p
>
>
>
>Ride to ride another day.
>jbr


Dear Ben,

Yes, on a gross level, water and olive oil will separate.

But the olive oil absorbs some water.

Google for hygroscopic and humectant to get an idea of what happens.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Just as you can't turn a cat into a vegetarian, you can't run those
> waspish little glow-plug engines very well without castor oil.
>


Dear Carl,

You can, in fact, turn a cat into a vegetarian.

Cheers,
Doug
 
A

Andrew Price

Guest
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 04:25:47 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

[---]

>Few will resist being washed off until they have deteriorated into the
>aforementioned goo, after which they resist detergents and solvents
>distressingly well.


As I found out when trying to clean a somewhat "neglected" chip fryer.
 
B

Bob Huntley

Guest
As I remember, the urban myth was that a Land Rover hit a rock and cracked
the gearbox casing, causing the oil to dump on the road. The story was that
they were able to pack the gearbox with bananas and get enough lubrication
to drive back to civilisation. (I suppose mashed banana is a bit like a
runny grease).

BTW - No idea if the story is true or not, just a story I recall going round
many years ago.



<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:25:37 +0100, Vincent Wilcox <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>
>>> A local motorcycle mechanic who repaired B-29 engines in the war of
>>> the Pacific told me that if the banana oil claim was true, then a
>>> Model T could have done the same thing.
>>>

>>
>>Presumably this was a diesel engined Land Rover, bearing in mind the
>>original diesel engine was demonstrated running on Peanut oil. A Model T
>>would not be able to run on oil since it requires ignition via a spark
>>rather than ignition via compression.
>>
>>In theory my Renault vans would run on vegetable oil maybe only needing
>>some paraffin for the winter to thin the oil. They are both old and do
>>not have common rail injection which now makes this no longer feasible.

>
> Dear Vincent,
>
> Sorry, I wasn't clear.
>
> The ad, as I recall, indicated that the banana oil was used for
> lubrication, not fuel.
>
> Google for "Land Rover" and "banana oil" and you'll see that the ad
> was boasting about ruggedness and field service, not alternate fuels.
>
> I can't find the actual ad, but it ran in the National Geographic
> years ago. Possibly someone with a dusty collection of magazines might
> find it.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
 
B

- Bob -

Guest
On 11 Aug 2006 13:29:53 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Dear Carl,
>
>You can, in fact, turn a cat into a vegetarian.
>
>Cheers,
>Doug


You can do it to humans too - but it still fscks with their natural
biology.
 
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:44:58 +0100, "Bob Huntley"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>As I remember, the urban myth was that a Land Rover hit a rock and cracked
>the gearbox casing, causing the oil to dump on the road. The story was that
>they were able to pack the gearbox with bananas and get enough lubrication
>to drive back to civilisation. (I suppose mashed banana is a bit like a
>runny grease).
>
>BTW - No idea if the story is true or not, just a story I recall going round
>many years ago.
>
>
>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:25:37 +0100, Vincent Wilcox <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A local motorcycle mechanic who repaired B-29 engines in the war of
>>>> the Pacific told me that if the banana oil claim was true, then a
>>>> Model T could have done the same thing.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Presumably this was a diesel engined Land Rover, bearing in mind the
>>>original diesel engine was demonstrated running on Peanut oil. A Model T
>>>would not be able to run on oil since it requires ignition via a spark
>>>rather than ignition via compression.
>>>
>>>In theory my Renault vans would run on vegetable oil maybe only needing
>>>some paraffin for the winter to thin the oil. They are both old and do
>>>not have common rail injection which now makes this no longer feasible.

>>
>> Dear Vincent,
>>
>> Sorry, I wasn't clear.
>>
>> The ad, as I recall, indicated that the banana oil was used for
>> lubrication, not fuel.
>>
>> Google for "Land Rover" and "banana oil" and you'll see that the ad
>> was boasting about ruggedness and field service, not alternate fuels.
>>
>> I can't find the actual ad, but it ran in the National Geographic
>> years ago. Possibly someone with a dusty collection of magazines might
>> find it.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel


Dear Bob,

True or not, your mashed bananas details are better than what I
remember of the glossy ad.

But since the glossy ad mentioned thousands of miles, it's likely that
these are two different stories.

It's hard to think of any place where you'd go thousands of miles a
cracked gear case, stopping only to top up at roadside banana stands,
so I suspect that my banana-oil was poured into the engine and used
for driving around routinely in some remote spote, while your
banana-split was mashed in and used to get back to where oil and
repairs were available.

Time to start pestering innocent friends with National Geographic
collections.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
G

G.T.

Guest
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> >

> Time to start pestering innocent friends with National Geographic
> collections.
>


I'd check it out but my aunt threw away all my grandparents' Nat Geos dating
from 1902 to 1998 when she helped my parents move my grandmother in '98.
She did so without consulting my grandmother, my parents, my other aunts and
uncles, nor me and my brother and cousins. Tragic. National Geographic is
one of the few magazines that places like Salvation Army accept. If she
didn't think us kids wanted them then she could have at least donated them
somewhere.

Greg
 
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 17:42:25 -0700, "G.T." <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> >

>> Time to start pestering innocent friends with National Geographic
>> collections.
>>

>
>I'd check it out but my aunt threw away all my grandparents' Nat Geos dating
>from 1902 to 1998 when she helped my parents move my grandmother in '98.
>She did so without consulting my grandmother, my parents, my other aunts and
>uncles, nor me and my brother and cousins. Tragic. National Geographic is
>one of the few magazines that places like Salvation Army accept. If she
>didn't think us kids wanted them then she could have at least donated them
>somewhere.
>
>Greg


Dear Greg,

You can get it all on CDROM, but I don't know if the disk has the ads.

I've emailed a friend who married a woman for love (or so he claims),
not her extensive National Geographic collection.

You get most copies on eBay, but most people haven't the patience or
interest--like so many things, people want to own the complete
collection, not actually use it.

Twenty years ago, I was delighted to find that my new university had
the collected works of Robert Ingersoll from Gordian Press, available
then for a mere $300, just like their 12-volume Bierce edition (which
is only about a quarter of what Bierce wrote).

I was depressed to find that Ingersoll's books had been on the shelves
for ten years, proudly requested by the English department, but that
no one had ever read them.

The evidence was that, despite the price, every volume contained
dozens of uncut leaves. The professors liked the idea of having an
extensive book collection, but the covers might just as well have been
glued shut.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
O

O-V R:nen

Guest
"Marcin J." <[email protected]> writes:

> Thus I suggest searching for an oil with
> the smallest content of C=C bounds. A book of organic chemistry I have
> mentions two candidates: oil from palm seeds (not palm oil) and coconut oil
> (>75% of saturated acids). Saturated fats are not popular these days, if you
> find something let us know.


What about ghee, isn't that ~70% saturated and ~25% monounsaturated?

ov "I can't believe it's butter" r
 
B

BigBen

Guest
On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:41:25 +1000, John Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>These days, I use Motul 8100 ester-based engine oil, including
>for bicycle chain lubrication. I believe it's ultimately


If "Esther based", I guess it's not all esther ... So, can you mix it
with synthetic PAO based oils?? If not, what does Motul mix the
Esther base with?

All I get to see around here, is Motul motorcyle oils - i.e., no
thinner than 10w40. I seem to get best result from 5w40 oil on my
chains.


Ride to ride another day.
jbr
 
J

John Henderson

Guest
BigBen wrote:

> If "Esther based", I guess it's not all esther ... So, can you
> mix it with synthetic PAO based oils??


Absolutely, according to Motul. It can be mixed with any other
engine oil in any ratio.

> If not, what does Motul mix the Esther base with?


I have no information on what else is in it.

> All I get to see around here, is Motul motorcyle oils - i.e.,
> no thinner than 10w40. I seem to get best result from 5w40
> oil on my chains.


The Motul 8100 E-tech oil I use is 0W-40.

John
 
BigBen wrote:

> Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
> fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
> source, I was not able to identify.


Olive oil works well for temporary applications, like cutting oil.

Somebody makes a vegetable-based chain lube:

http://www.bio-lube.com
 
[email protected] wrote:
> On 11 Aug 2006 13:29:53 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
> >[email protected] wrote:
> >>
> >> Just as you can't turn a cat into a vegetarian, you can't run those
> >> waspish little glow-plug engines very well without castor oil.
> >>

> >Dear Carl,
> >
> >You can, in fact, turn a cat into a vegetarian.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >Doug

>
> Dear Doug,
>
> Not for long.
>
> http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html
>


Dear Carl,

For as long as you like.

http://www.vnv.org.au/Articles/Dogs&Cats.htm

Doug
 
B

BigBen

Guest
On Mon, 14 Aug 2006 14:36:19 +1000, John Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>> If "Esther based", I guess it's not all esther ... So, can you
>> mix it with synthetic PAO based oils??

>
>Absolutely, according to Motul. It can be mixed with any other
>engine oil in any ratio.


OK, thanks a lot for the info!

BTW, do you find that Ester oil makes your chain last longer? (That's
with, or without, regular chain cleaning?)



Ride to ride another day.
jbr
 

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