Vegetable oil for your chain - WHY NOT?



B

BigBen

Guest
Hi All,

Has anybody has bad experiences with this?

If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?

Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very higly - for
food consumption of course - but it may not be just for food that its
properties stand out.

Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
source, I was not able to identify.
I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very thin and
extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you had something
more between your fingers - maybe it sticks better to the chain, and
still doesn't catch all the road dirt??.

Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p
 
(BigBen) wrote:

> Has anybody has bad experiences with this?


I've used olive oil on my chain in a pinch, when the squeaking chain
was driving me nuts and there were not other lubricants available.
It worked fine as a lubricant, but it was a bit messy.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://udctours.com
 
BigBen wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Has anybody has bad experiences with this?
>
> If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?
>
> Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very
> higly - for food consumption of course - but it may not be
> just for food that its properties stand out.
>
> Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil
> between my fingers, and then comparing that with some other
> vegetable oil, which source, I was not able to identify.
> I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very
> thin and extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you
> had something more between your fingers - maybe it sticks
> better to the chain, and still doesn't catch all the road
> dirt??.
>
> Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days -
> being less dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p


Well, Husqvarna sell vegetable oil for chainsaw lubrication:
http://tinyurl.com/o3ruf

John
 
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 14:47:06 -0700, Terry Morse <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've used olive oil on my chain in a pinch, when the squeaking chain
>was driving me nuts and there were not other lubricants available.
>It worked fine as a lubricant, but it was a bit messy.


Any messier than otheroil type lubricants?
 
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:15:53 +1000, John Henderson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Well, Husqvarna sell vegetable oil for chainsaw lubrication:
>http://tinyurl.com/o3ruf


OK, that has to be something good going for it! (Too bad they don't
say which vegetable oil that is ;-) But I'll make a few
experiements...
 
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:25:58 GMT, [email protected] (BigBen)
wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>Has anybody has bad experiences with this?
>
>If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?
>
>Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very higly - for
>food consumption of course - but it may not be just for food that its
>properties stand out.
>
>Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
>fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
>source, I was not able to identify.
>I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very thin and
>extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you had something
>more between your fingers - maybe it sticks better to the chain, and
>still doesn't catch all the road dirt??.
>
>Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
>dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p


Dear Ben,

Castor bean oil was essential to rotary engine planes in the First
World War. It's still hard to beat for 2-cycle engines, if you can
stand the smell.

As for road dirt on a bicycle chain, just about anything called "oil"
traps dust until it dries, even oil-based paint on an artist's easel.

Land Rover used to claim that one of its engines ran for thousands of
miles on banana oil, but it's not clear whether this was really just
the bugle oil that Peter Chisholm likes to mention.

Unctuously,

Carl Fogel
 
BigBen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Has anybody has bad experiences with this?
>
> If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?
>
> Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very higly - for
> food consumption of course - but it may not be just for food that its
> properties stand out.
>
> Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
> fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
> source, I was not able to identify.
> I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very thin and
> extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you had something
> more between your fingers - maybe it sticks better to the chain, and
> still doesn't catch all the road dirt??.
>
> Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
> dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p


I did my freshman year in college because I had nothing else. I think it
was regular vegetable oil. It dried up and became hard, encrusted, and
basicallly impenetrable. No flaking, no squeak, and no real problems. No
dirty pant legs or cat 5 tattoos, either.
--
Phil Lee, Squid
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Castor bean oil was essential to rotary engine planes in the First
> World War. It's still hard to beat for 2-cycle engines, if you can
> stand the smell.
>


It's not that hard to beat any more, especially if you consider that few
motor-cycle owners are willing to take their cylinder heads apart at the
frequent intervals required to decarbonise the pistons and rings; castor oil
is notorious for gum formation.

Modern tribology has better solutions.
 
When I was really big into radio controlled model airplanes, we used Castor
Oil based model engine fuel.
I still have like 10 gallons of FAI fuel here at home too from my pattern
airplane flying days. The past years has had the synthetic oils taking over
though.
I actually liked the smell of castor oil, nitromethane and ethanol, brings
back memories.
I do not see why Olive oil should not work, but maybe it might need a
little thining with some ethanol so it can penetrate a little better.
It isn't going to be any messier than using regular spray on oil chain lubes
or using a non-spray applicatior drop by drop.

"BigBen" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 08:15:53 +1000, John Henderson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Well, Husqvarna sell vegetable oil for chainsaw lubrication:
>>http://tinyurl.com/o3ruf

>
> OK, that has to be something good going for it! (Too bad they don't
> say which vegetable oil that is ;-) But I'll make a few
> experiements...
>
 
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:57:54 -0300, "jtaylor"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>>
>> Castor bean oil was essential to rotary engine planes in the First
>> World War. It's still hard to beat for 2-cycle engines, if you can
>> stand the smell.
>>

>
>It's not that hard to beat any more, especially if you consider that few
>motor-cycle owners are willing to take their cylinder heads apart at the
>frequent intervals required to decarbonise the pistons and rings; castor oil
>is notorious for gum formation.
>
>Modern tribology has better solutions.


Dear J.,

True, castor oil has its problems, but it still seems to be essential
in radio-control miniature aircraft engines:

"Two-stroke fuel has three major ingredients: methanol, castor oil,
and nitromenthane (nitro). Methanol comprises 60%-75% of most fuels.
It burns completely and adds to the fuel’s total energy output."

"The lubricating oil comprises roughly 20% of the fuel. Most
two-stroke fuels contain two types of oil; 4%-8% is usually castor and
the remaining 12%-16% is a synthetic that varies by manufacturer. Oils
typically do not burn completely, and what small percentage of the oil
that does burn does so at lower energy levels than methanol."

"Castor oil is used because it maintains a lubricating film at higher
temperatures than most synthetic oils do. If the engine’s high-speed
fuel/air ratio is too lean—too much air—the engine will run at high
temperatures. Castor oil will maintain lubrication in an overheated
engine; most synthetic oils burn away."

"Castor oil also helps remove heat from the combustion chamber better
than most synthetics. Castor oil leaves a film residue in the engine
that offers some rust protection. Most synthetic oils do not."

"However, too much castor oil causes excessive residue buildup that
can diminish an engine’s performance. Because castor oil does not
burn, it reduces the fuel’s total energy output. For these reasons,
the castor oil percentage is usually kept at less than 8%."

"Synthetic oils do burn, but not well or completely. Little synthetic
oil residue is left inside an engine. Synthetics also offer excellent
engine lubrication when operating at normal engine temperatures."

"Because high oil content detracts from the fuel’s total energy
output, the easiest way to increase an engine’s apparent power output
is to reduce the fuel’s oil content. However, oil contents much less
than 18% can cause long-term wear problems in .40-.60 sport engines."

"Fuel manufacturers are studying new oils that produce more power and
offer better protection with quantities as low as 16%. But for now,
consider using fuels with 18%-20% oil content in newer or
sophisticated (expensive?) .40-.60 engines."

"The third fuel component is nitromethane. It burns at a higher energy
level than methanol. However, it also produces higher
combustion-chamber temperatures and therefore needs to be limited.
Most sport fuels contain 5%-25% nitro. It prolongs the combustion
event. The burning process takes longer, and that also produces more
energy."

http://www.masportaviator.com/ah.asp?ID=70&Index=3

I doubt that I'd smell castor oil at a modern motorcycle observed
trials event, as I did back in the '70's, but you can still smell the
castor stink at R/C strips.

Just as you can't turn a cat into a vegetarian, you can't run those
waspish little glow-plug engines very well without castor oil.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:06:31 -0600, [email protected] wrote:

>On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:25:58 GMT, [email protected] (BigBen)
>wrote:
>
>>Hi All,
>>
>>Has anybody has bad experiences with this?
>>
>>If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?
>>
>>Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very higly - for
>>food consumption of course - but it may not be just for food that its
>>properties stand out.
>>
>>Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
>>fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
>>source, I was not able to identify.
>>I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very thin and
>>extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you had something
>>more between your fingers - maybe it sticks better to the chain, and
>>still doesn't catch all the road dirt??.
>>
>>Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
>>dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p

>
>Dear Ben,
>
>Castor bean oil was essential to rotary engine planes in the First
>World War. It's still hard to beat for 2-cycle engines, if you can
>stand the smell.


I was lucky enough to make it to Indy in the latter days of the Offy and got to
enjoy the castor oil and Methanol aroma in its finest venue.

I can stand it.

Ron



>As for road dirt on a bicycle chain, just about anything called "oil"
>traps dust until it dries, even oil-based paint on an artist's easel.
>
>Land Rover used to claim that one of its engines ran for thousands of
>miles on banana oil, but it's not clear whether this was really just
>the bugle oil that Peter Chisholm likes to mention.
>
>Unctuously,
>
>Carl Fogel
 
BigBen wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Has anybody has bad experiences with this?
>
> If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?
>
> Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very higly - for
> food consumption of course - but it may not be just for food that its
> properties stand out.
>
> Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
> fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
> source, I was not able to identify.
> I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very thin and
> extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you had something
> more between your fingers - maybe it sticks better to the chain, and
> still doesn't catch all the road dirt??.
>
> Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
> dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p


google "biodegradable chain lubricant" . I haven't used anything like
this yet, but it certainly exists.
 
[email protected] wrote:
>
> Land Rover used to claim that one of its engines ran for thousands of
> miles on banana oil, but it's not clear whether this was really just
> the bugle oil that Peter Chisholm likes to mention.


They might have meant isoamyl acetate, a fatty chemical that smells
like bananas (or more accurately, like artificial banana-flavored
candy). I've heard both this and the related compound amyl acetate
referred to as "banana oil".

It seems like a diesel engine would be happier to run on isoamyl
acetate than would a gasoline engine. But that's idle speculation on
my part.

Chalo
 
BigBen says...

> Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
> dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p


Bad idea. Vegetable oils eventually polymerize and turn into a tough,
sticky mess. This will happen on the internal surfaces of your chain.
If you want a cheap chain lube, use motor oil. If you want to use less
petroleum, fly less and use motor vehicles less.
 
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 21:25:58 GMT, [email protected] (BigBen)
wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>Has anybody has bad experiences with this?
>
>If so, what kind of vegetable oil did you use?
>
>Where I live - Portugal - we tend to regard olive oil very higly - for
>food consumption of course - but it may not be just for food that its
>properties stand out.
>
>Just a while ago, I was pressing a few drops of olive oil between my
>fingers, and then comparing that with some other vegetable oil, which
>source, I was not able to identify.
>I felt they were both "thin" enough, the "unknown" being very thin and
>extremely slipery, while the olive oil felt like you had something
>more between your fingers - maybe it sticks better to the chain, and
>still doesn't catch all the road dirt??.
>
>Will definitelly have to giveit a try, one of these days - being less
>dependant on pretoleum can't be a bad thing! :p


Vegetable oils have many problems as lubricants.

Many are hydrated and/or hydrophilic; they contain water and/or will
actively absorb it, and will promote corrosion. (Side note: Most
automotive brake fluids are compounded primarily from vegetable oils,
and if the system is not sealed to prevent the fluid being exposed to
the atmosphere, the fluid will hydrate, and shortly afterwards the
iron and steel parts in the hydraulic system will start to corrode
from the inside.)

Some vegetable oils contain acids that will attack metal parts.

Exposed to air as a thin film, most deteriorate into a gummy, resinous
goo that's hard to remove.

Few will resist being washed off until they have deteriorated into the
aforementioned goo, after which they resist detergents and solvents
distressingly well.

Worst of all, however, most of them are not very good lubricants at
anything above low surface pressures.


--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
On 10 Aug 2006 20:13:54 -0700, "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Land Rover used to claim that one of its engines ran for thousands of
>> miles on banana oil, but it's not clear whether this was really just
>> the bugle oil that Peter Chisholm likes to mention.

>
>They might have meant isoamyl acetate, a fatty chemical that smells
>like bananas (or more accurately, like artificial banana-flavored
>candy). I've heard both this and the related compound amyl acetate
>referred to as "banana oil".
>
>It seems like a diesel engine would be happier to run on isoamyl
>acetate than would a gasoline engine. But that's idle speculation on
>my part.
>
>Chalo


Dear Chalo,

I suppose that the ads might have meant an artificial oil, but the ads
that I remember (and that are still mentioned on the internet) implied
that hardy Land Rovers could survive dreadful third world conditions
by using whatever was handy.

A local motorcycle mechanic who repaired B-29 engines in the war of
the Pacific told me that if the banana oil claim was true, then a
Model T could have done the same thing.

Similar Land Rover ads bragged about such things as "the highest
elevation" attained by a Land Rover (some temple steps in the
Himalayas, as I recall) and invited readers to send in their tales of
Land Rover wonders.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
(BigBen) wrote:

> Terry Morse wrote:
>
> >I've used olive oil on my chain in a pinch, when the squeaking chain
> >was driving me nuts and there were not other lubricants available.
> >It worked fine as a lubricant, but it was a bit messy.

>
> Any messier than otheroil type lubricants?


It seemed to turn black almost immediately and got rather gooey. It
cleaned off fairly easily, though, then I replaced it with "real"
lubricant.
--
terry morse - Undiscovered Country Tours - http://udctours.com
 
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:40:32 -0400, "Phil Lee, Squid"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I did my freshman year in college because I had nothing else. I think it
>was regular vegetable oil. It dried up and became hard, encrusted, and
>basicallly impenetrable. No flaking, no squeak, and no real problems. No
>dirty pant legs or cat 5 tattoos, either.


As long as you start with a clean chain, I can see no problem with
that.
As hard as the oil may have turned, I assume the chain must still
have been harder




Ride to ride another day.
jbr
 
On Fri, 11 Aug 2006 04:25:47 GMT, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Many are hydrated and/or hydrophilic; they contain water and/or will
>actively absorb it, and will promote corrosion. (Side note: Most


Try mixing olive oil with water, and tell about the result.

There is a saying in Portugal about olive oil, water, and liying - I'm
not saying you're liying, but the saying tells about the result you'll
get trying to mix olive oil and water :p



Ride to ride another day.
jbr
 
I don't know a lot about biochemistry and my English is not fluent but I
know something about polymerization. Lets start from the background. Natural
oils are fats (usually). Fats are esters of glycerine and fatty acids. Fatty
acids could be saturated (only single carbon-carbon bonds) or unsaturated
(1, 2 or 3 C=C bonds). The higher content of unsaturated bonds - the higher
ability to polymerize and other reactions. Polymerization is responsible for
this sticky mass mentioned above. Thus I suggest searching for an oil with
the smallest content of C=C bounds. A book of organic chemistry I have
mentions two candidates: oil from palm seeds (not palm oil) and coconut oil
(>75% of saturated acids). Saturated fats are not popular these days, if you
find something let us know.

--
Cheers
marcin
 

Similar threads