Velocity Fusion Max Tension?

[Ben Munson]

I am building a non-dished track wheel with 700c Velocity Fusions. What
is the max spoke tension for this rim? Without heating any of the usual
strong personalities up to simmer, does anyone have knowledge of its
real-world limits? Is there a comprehensive place to get this
information online? If not, is there a reason nobody has started one?

Thanks in advance,
Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson

 

[JeffWills]

Ben Munson wrote:
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson

If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
"sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
it works for me.)

The Velocity Fusion rim (http://velocityusa.com/rims/road-rims.php) has
a fairly deep section. I doubt that you'll be able to tension it to the
point it potato-chips. I would tension it to the point where you're
afraid of damaging the nipples and leave it at that.

A good reference: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Jeff

 

[Ben Munson]

In article <[email protected]>,
"JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:

> If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
> it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
> "sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
> tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
> than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
> it works for me.)

I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf. I have an average of
140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer) and I don't want
later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.

Thanks for the references. I have scoured all of these, plus Gerd's
book. Wheelbuilding is new to me, but I love it. It is my new obsession.

Ben Munson

 

[JeffWills]

Ben Munson wrote:
>
> Thanks for the references. I have scoured all of these, plus Gerd's
> book. Wheelbuilding is new to me, but I love it. It is my new obsession.
>

I've been building wheels for 25 years. Right now I've got three sets
in the works. I'm a little obsessive, too.

Jeff

 

[Ron Ruff]

Ben Munson wrote:

> I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
> true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
> reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf. I have an average of
> 140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer) and I don't want
> later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.
>
I would think that is a bit high. I'd expect the max tension with
Aeroheads and Fusions to be very close. The biggest danger is probably
that the rim will crack at the spoke holes.

What is the spoke count and size?

 

[Ben Munson]

On 2005-11-12 14:36:10 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> said:

>
> Ben Munson wrote:
>
>> I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
>> true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
>> reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf. I have an average of
>> 140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer) and I don't want
>> later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.
>>
> I would think that is a bit high. I'd expect the max tension with
> Aeroheads and Fusions to be very close. The biggest danger is probably
> that the rim will crack at the spoke holes.
>
> What is the spoke count and size?

DT Competition 14/15/14 into an IRO 32H large flange front flip/flop
hub. I am around 180lbs. I have seen no troubles at the holes/eyes at
this point after much stress-relief. I even had the right side tighter
accidentally (more like 160kgf) when I first started, and the rim was
beginning to warp. The bicycle it is going on isn't complete yet, so I
haven't put any miles on it. If I don't need to, I want to keep it
where it is since it is in perfect trueness and it stands.

I know this gets into a much bigger question of factory spec vs.
high-tensioned wheels, but I want to stay clear of the flame war. Is my
own safety at risk based on this rim's manufacturing? Anybody beyond
speculation and towards educated advice? Beam and Jobst, play nice.

And thanks to both of the early repliers. I think you both have framed
the discussion well with your questions and advice.

Ben Munson

 

[[email protected]]

Ben Munson wrote:
> On 2005-11-12 14:36:10 -0800, "Ron Ruff" <[email protected]> said:
>
> >
> > Ben Munson wrote:
> >
> >> I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
> >> true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
> >> reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf. I have an average of
> >> 140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer) and I don't want
> >> later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.
> >>
> > I would think that is a bit high. I'd expect the max tension with
> > Aeroheads and Fusions to be very close. The biggest danger is probably
> > that the rim will crack at the spoke holes.
> >
> > What is the spoke count and size?
>
> DT Competition 14/15/14 into an IRO 32H large flange front flip/flop
> hub. I am around 180lbs. I have seen no troubles at the holes/eyes at
> this point after much stress-relief. I even had the right side tighter
> accidentally (more like 160kgf) when I first started, and the rim was
> beginning to warp. The bicycle it is going on isn't complete yet, so I
> haven't put any miles on it. If I don't need to, I want to keep it
> where it is since it is in perfect trueness and it stands.
>
> I know this gets into a much bigger question of factory spec vs.
> high-tensioned wheels, but I want to stay clear of the flame war. Is my
> own safety at risk based on this rim's manufacturing? Anybody beyond
> speculation and towards educated advice? Beam and Jobst, play nice.
>
> And thanks to both of the early repliers. I think you both have framed
> the discussion well with your questions and advice.
>
> Ben Munson

The Fusion is a nice rim, medium deep (24 to 25mm I think?) (so medium
strength) and Velocity's good rolling quality makes a nice true, round
wheel.

With 32 spokes, an average of 100 kgf (front and right side rear) has
worked well in my experience. I don't keep track the max and min, but I
try to minimize the range by tightening loose ones and loosening tight
ones (then re-truing).

But don't make the spokes too tight! I'd back them off if the tightest
is over 130 kgf. In addition to the risk of potato chipping the wheel,
excess spoke tension can lead to earlier rim cracking near spoke holes.
You won't see it during stress relief -- it comes with fatigue (use).

For example (caution: these are made up numbers!) , with higher tension
it may take (say) 10,000 miles instead of (say) 20,000 miles to show
the first cracks. This also depends on rim cross section, alloy,
thermal and cold work, extrusion quality and the bicycle's load, among
other things, which is why it's so hard to quantify (hence no reference
charts). Remember these are made up numbers. I'd love to learn some
real values.

 

[jim beam]

Ben Munson wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
>>it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
>>"sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
>>tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
>>than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
>>it works for me.)
>
>
> I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
> true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
> reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf.

hopefully you got that number from checking the archive and reading
peter chisholm on this group.

> I have an average of
> 140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer)

ok, so you have a tensiometer, you've read the archive and you have the
manufacturer spec. isn't that all the information you need?

> and I don't want
> later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.

from the archives you'll hopefully have seen the cracked rim threads,
including pics. you'll now be able to make a decision on whether you
want to use excess tension or not. but bear in mind that the argument
for it is based on the fundamental misconceptions, that:

1. wheel loading never increases spoke tension, only decreases it. that
would be fine if you could honk up a hill without lateral loading. but
you can't. especially not on a fixie.

2. wheel strength increases as spoke tension increases. [my favorite!]
it can't. all that happens is that the rim gets loaded closer to its
yield point - not a desirable result.

whether you want to follow the data provided by the manufacturer or not
is your call. the rim won't crack immediately, but exceeding spec
unquestionably increases the probability of cracking later. similarly,
rims with excess tension have a much greater propensity to taco. it may
not happen immediately, but it's more likely in a minor accident. it's
all your call.

and don't worry about not wanting to wreck a wheel that's currently
perfectly true - if you're new to the game, you probably need the practice!

>
> Thanks for the references. I have scoured all of these, plus Gerd's
> book. Wheelbuilding is new to me, but I love it. It is my new obsession.
>
> Ben Munson

 

[john]

jim beam wrote:
> Ben Munson wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
> >>it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
> >>"sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
> >>tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
> >>than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
> >>it works for me.)
> >
> >
> > I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
> > true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
> > reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf.
>
> hopefully you got that number from checking the archive and reading
> peter chisholm on this group.
>
> > I have an average of
> > 140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer)
>
> ok, so you have a tensiometer, you've read the archive and you have the
> manufacturer spec. isn't that all the information you need?
>
> > and I don't want
> > later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.
>
> from the archives you'll hopefully have seen the cracked rim threads,
> including pics. you'll now be able to make a decision on whether you
> want to use excess tension or not. but bear in mind that the argument
> for it is based on the fundamental misconceptions, that:
>
> 1. wheel loading never increases spoke tension, only decreases it. that
> would be fine if you could honk up a hill without lateral loading. but
> you can't. especially not on a fixie.
>
> 2. wheel strength increases as spoke tension increases. [my favorite!]
> it can't. all that happens is that the rim gets loaded closer to its
> yield point - not a desirable result.
>
> whether you want to follow the data provided by the manufacturer or not
> is your call. the rim won't crack immediately, but exceeding spec
> unquestionably increases the probability of cracking later. similarly,
> rims with excess tension have a much greater propensity to taco. it may
> not happen immediately, but it's more likely in a minor accident. it's
> all your call.
>
> and don't worry about not wanting to wreck a wheel that's currently
> perfectly true - if you're new to the game, you probably need the practice!
>
> >
> > Thanks for the references. I have scoured all of these, plus Gerd's
> > book. Wheelbuilding is new to me, but I love it. It is my new obsession.
> >
> > Ben Munson

I just visited velocityusa, & I didn't see any tension reference. Nor
did I see any inside dimensions, one of the most important pieces of
data to me.

Did I miss something? John

 

[john]

jim beam wrote:
> Ben Munson wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
> >>it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
> >>"sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
> >>tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
> >>than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
> >>it works for me.)
> >
> >
> > I feel pretty solid about the wheel given this advice. It is perfectly
> > true and I have been stress-relieving all along. My only concern is
> > reading about v. aeroheads maxing out at 105kgf.
>
> hopefully you got that number from checking the archive and reading
> peter chisholm on this group.
>
> > I have an average of
> > 140kgf going right now (based on a Park tensiometer)
>
> ok, so you have a tensiometer, you've read the archive and you have the
> manufacturer spec. isn't that all the information you need?
>
> > and I don't want
> > later problems with nipples or eyes. The nipples are DT brass rounds.
>
> from the archives you'll hopefully have seen the cracked rim threads,
> including pics. you'll now be able to make a decision on whether you
> want to use excess tension or not. but bear in mind that the argument
> for it is based on the fundamental misconceptions, that:
>
> 1. wheel loading never increases spoke tension, only decreases it. that
> would be fine if you could honk up a hill without lateral loading. but
> you can't. especially not on a fixie.
>
> 2. wheel strength increases as spoke tension increases. [my favorite!]
> it can't. all that happens is that the rim gets loaded closer to its
> yield point - not a desirable result.
>
> whether you want to follow the data provided by the manufacturer or not
> is your call. the rim won't crack immediately, but exceeding spec
> unquestionably increases the probability of cracking later. similarly,
> rims with excess tension have a much greater propensity to taco. it may
> not happen immediately, but it's more likely in a minor accident. it's
> all your call.
>
> and don't worry about not wanting to wreck a wheel that's currently
> perfectly true - if you're new to the game, you probably need the practice!
>
> >
> > Thanks for the references. I have scoured all of these, plus Gerd's
> > book. Wheelbuilding is new to me, but I love it. It is my new obsession.
> >
> > Ben Munson

I just visited velocityusa, & I didn't see any tension reference. Nor
did I see any inside dimensions, one of the most important pieces of
data to me.

Did I miss something? John

 

[JeffWills]

john wrote:
>
> I just visited velocityusa, & I didn't see any tension reference. Nor
> did I see any inside dimensions, one of the most important pieces of
> data to me.
>
> Did I miss something? John

http://velocityusa.com/rim-diagrams.php covers outside dimensions and
ERD.

Jeff

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ben Munson wrote:
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson
>
> If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
> it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
> "sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
> tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
> than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
> it works for me.)

This is not stress relieving. The `sproings' sound is the
sound made by spokes untwisting that were wound up when
turning the nipples with the spoke wrench.

Stress relieving is not accomplished by pushing the rim
parallel to the axle. Not enough additional tension can be
put on the spokes in this way. The way to add enough
momentary tension to the spokes to plastically deform them
at the elbow and at the nipple is to squeeze them together
after they have been brought up to final tension.

--
Michael Press

 

[Ben Munson]

On 2005-11-12 20:53:42 -0800, Michael Press <[email protected]> said:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Ben Munson wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance,
>>> Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson
>>
>> If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
>> it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
>> "sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
>> tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
>> than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
>> it works for me.)
>
> This is not stress relieving. The `sproings' sound is the sound made by
> spokes untwisting that were wound up when turning the nipples with the
> spoke wrench.
> Stress relieving is not accomplished by pushing the rim parallel to the
> axle. Not enough additional tension can be put on the spokes in this
> way. The way to add enough momentary tension to the spokes to
> plastically deform them at the elbow and at the nipple is to squeeze
> them together after they have been brought up to final tension.

Just to clarify a couple of points that have come up: I followed Gerd
Schraner's techniques outlined in "The Art of Wheelbuilding" to a T,
for better or worse. That includes both kinds of stress relieving that
Mr. Willis is debating semantics over.

Also, Mr. Beam's philosophy comes through loud and clear, if not a
fresh conclusion on his part. Sir, you are mistaken about one thing: I
do not know the max tension of Velocity Fusions based on any
information (practical or otherwise) other than one mention of Velocity
Aeroheads from a past discussion. That was my primary question.

Unfortunately, I am not going to change my mind about the merits of
high tensioning at this juncture. I have possibly just answered my own
question. Yet, I hold out hope that someone out there has some history
with these rims and has taken them as far as I have. If not, I will
report back to base when I have some miles on them. Just for fun I will
build the back to 125 or so and see which gives me the most problems,
Not exactly scientific due to rear torsional stress, but nonetheless a
start! And if it costs me a rim, spokes, or my teeth, I will chalk it
up to youthful exuberance.

Ben "Blowing the Curve" Munson

 

[Ron Ruff]

Ben Munson wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, I am not going to change my mind about the merits of
> high tensioning at this juncture. I have possibly just answered my own
> question. Yet, I hold out hope that someone out there has some history
> with these rims and has taken them as far as I have. If not, I will
> report back to base when I have some miles on them. Just for fun I will
> build the back to 125 or so and see which gives me the most problems,
> Not exactly scientific due to rear torsional stress, but nonetheless a
> start! And if it costs me a rim, spokes, or my teeth, I will chalk it
> up to youthful exuberance.
>
Well, you can do whatever you like, but cracked spoke holes are
certainly common in rims that have been over-tensioned. Give it a few
thousand miles, though. Why do you think manufacturers mention any
limit at all?

I'm wondering how your mind got set on 140kgf having merit? Is that
listed in one of the references you used? Jobst recommended tension to
the limit of wheel buckling, but that was decades ago when rims were
all low profile and this was the limiting factor. This is not the case
with aero rims. Rims also had socket type eyelets in those days which
distributed the load, and I presume that cracking around the eyelets
was not an issue.

With 32 spokes in your wheels, 140kgf is not necessary and you will be
reducing the life of the wheel.

Hopefully you will get Peter Chisholm's attention, because he builds
wheels and likes Velocity Fusion rims, so he should be able to give you
expert advice. As I recall though, he recommends 100kgf for the drive
side rear.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Ben Munson wrote:
> I am building a non-dished track wheel with 700c Velocity Fusions. What
> is the max spoke tension for this rim? Without heating any of the usual
> strong personalities up to simmer, does anyone have knowledge of its
> real-world limits? Is there a comprehensive place to get this
> information online? If not, is there a reason nobody has started one?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson

100 kgf is what you ought to be looking for. For a symmetrical hub,
both sides. I have built hundreds of Fusions and that's what I use.

 

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

JeffWills wrote:
> Ben Munson wrote:
> >
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson
>
> If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
> it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
> "sproings" into a potato-chip shape,

This is taking twist out of the spokes, not stress relioeving. . The
potato shape is from the tension changing, not overtensioning. Stress
relieving comes from squezzing parallel spokes.

it's overtensioned. Back off the
> tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
> than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
> it works for me.)
>
> The Velocity Fusion rim (http://velocityusa.com/rims/road-rims.php) has
> a fairly deep section. I doubt that you'll be able to tension it to the
> point it potato-chips. I would tension it to the point where you're
> afraid of damaging the nipples and leave it at that.
>
> A good reference: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
>
> Jeff

 

[jim beam]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Ben Munson wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks in advance,
>>>Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson
>>
>>If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
>>it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
>>"sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
>>tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
>>than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
>>it works for me.)
>
>
> This is not stress relieving. The `sproings' sound is the
> sound made by spokes untwisting that were wound up when
> turning the nipples with the spoke wrench.
>
> Stress relieving is not accomplished by pushing the rim
> parallel to the axle. Not enough additional tension can be
> put on the spokes in this way. The way to add enough
> momentary tension to the spokes to plastically deform them
> at the elbow and at the nipple is to squeeze them together
> after they have been brought up to final tension.
>
"not enough additional tension can be achieved"? as opposed to
squeezing by hand? are you serious? didn't we all have this discussion
before and conclude that the degree of tension increase achievable by
squeezing [apart from being /highly/ subjective and variable] was not
any different from the rim press method?

as for whether either are capable of metallurgical "stress relief",
iirc, the "best" defense of the spoke squeeze method was some
conveniently unresearched unproven lamo excuse about "only microscopic
residually stressed areas yield" when questioned about why the typically
required 1-2% yielding was not being achieved. conveniently ignoring of
course the requirement that metallurgical stress relief is required
immediately after forming, not the weeks or months later that a builder
gets around to taking the spokes out of their box. [and let's also
ignore the significant impact on fatigue of other factors such as the
use of modern vacuum degassed steels.]

bottom line; there's no reason why munson's method won't work. after
all, the spokes only need to be bedded in, and this method /does/ raise
tension sufficiently for bed-in to occur. and this /is/ the textbook
method proscribed by mavic. why pay attention to mavic? well, [rumor
has it] they dump more than a buck or two into r&d and have done so for
nearly 80 years. i have no idea why they bother when all they need to
do is buy a book from a guy that doesn't know a damned thing about
materials or fatigue but presumes to tell us... no, i'm bored with all
this willful ignorance.

 

[Ed]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "JeffWills" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Ben Munson wrote:
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson
> >
> > If you thing it's over-tensioned, stress-relieve the wheel by putting
> > it on the floor and pressing down on opposite sides of the rim. If it
> > "sproings" into a potato-chip shape, it's overtensioned. Back off the
> > tension two turns and start truing again. Final tension should be less
> > than the amount that potato-chipped the wheel.(This is Jobst's method-
> > it works for me.)
>
> This is not stress relieving. The `sproings' sound is the
> sound made by spokes untwisting that were wound up when
> turning the nipples with the spoke wrench.
>
> Stress relieving is not accomplished by pushing the rim
> parallel to the axle. Not enough additional tension can be
> put on the spokes in this way.

Do tell why it is impossible to create sufficient tension by
pushing parallel to the axle.

Only a few mm of hub to rim 'axial' displacement are required.
This does not seem out of reach for mans current ability with
machines.

Ed

 

[Ben Munson]

On 2005-11-13 06:28:12 -0800, "Qui si parla Campagnolo"
<[email protected]> said:

>
> Ben Munson wrote:
>> I am building a non-dished track wheel with 700c Velocity Fusions. What
>> is the max spoke tension for this rim? Without heating any of the usual
>> strong personalities up to simmer, does anyone have knowledge of its
>> real-world limits? Is there a comprehensive place to get this
>> information online? If not, is there a reason nobody has started one?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Ben "I may have overtensioned" Munson
>
> 100 kgf is what you ought to be looking for. For a symmetrical hub,
> both sides. I have built hundreds of Fusions and that's what I use.

Thanks Peter! That's the kind of info I like. Is there much variance in
your tension between Aeroheads to Fusions to deep Vs? I am going to be
moving on to some Deep V mountain bike wheels for my pops after this
little learning experience. He is a heavyweight, so all of this gets
more critical.

Ben Munson

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On 13 Nov 2005 09:18:36 -0800, "Ed" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Do tell why it is impossible to create sufficient tension by
>pushing parallel to the axle.
>
>Only a few mm of hub to rim 'axial' displacement are required.
>This does not seem out of reach for mans current ability with
>machines.

What do machines have to do with doing this by hand, exactly?

Jasper