velonews: Legally speaking



tucsonguy

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Aug 7, 2006
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Those of you interested in the POSSIBILITY of Landis being innocent might like to check out this post on today's VeloNews.com

http://velonews.com/news/fea/10679.0.html

Plain and simple: Landis might get off on a technicality. The American Anti-doping may decide that 'the french blew it' with regard to releasing damaging information about the Landis ''A'' test before the "B" was tested.

Okay, I admit I didn't read this article in minute detail, but that is part of the gist I am getting from it.

Main point was to inform the forum and you can draw your own conclusions.

I am leaning toward Landis being guilty of intentionally taking drugs, but would like to believe otherwise.

tucson guy (tucson is in arizona, usa for those of you who don't know)
 
tucsonguy said:
Those of you interested in the POSSIBILITY of Landis being innocent might like to check out this post on today's VeloNews.com

http://velonews.com/news/fea/10679.0.html

Plain and simple: Landis might get off on a technicality. The American Anti-doping may decide that 'the french blew it' with regard to releasing damaging information about the Landis ''A'' test before the "B" was tested.

Okay, I admit I didn't read this article in minute detail, but that is part of the gist I am getting from it.

Main point was to inform the forum and you can draw your own conclusions.

I am leaning toward Landis being guilty of intentionally taking drugs, but would like to believe otherwise.

tucson guy (tucson is in arizona, usa for those of you who don't know)

I think its a fair and balanced article and goes hand in hand with the UCI selectively following their rules...such as releasing Armstrongs doping control sheets from 1999 and not releasing Jan Ullrich's blood to the SPanish police.

http://velonews.com/race/int/articles/10678.0.html
 
An interesting article. Thank you for posting the link.
 
Additionally, the UCI announced that Landis' A Sample tested positive for an exogenous source, again before the required B Sample test.

Actually the UCI did NOT announce this. There is a report from the NY Times that sourced a UCI informant. There is a distinction.

Sure, Mr. Landis could get off on a technicality. But I bet that the UCI would appeal any such ruling to the CAS.

Interesting read though. Thanks for sharing.
 
OK, Having read the lawyer produced document referenced, can any one of you explain to me, just how does failure to follow reporting protocol in any way affect the results of laboratory analytical results? Sure, Landis may get off on a technicality, but does that change the analytical result? Unless there is evidence to show that sample were tampered with or that the analyses were flawed (IE false positives), then all the rest is "lawyer speak". This has nothing to do with whether or not Landis cheated. It has solely to do with his culpability for cheating. Its time we recognised the difference, legal is not right and moral. As far as I am concerned, if the press reports are correct, and the IRMS indicates exogenous testosterone, the Landis is guilty. IF he gets off is another story.
 
tasmart said:
OK, Having read the lawyer produced document referenced, can any one of you explain to me, just how does failure to follow reporting protocol in any way affect the results of laboratory analytical results? Sure, Landis may get off on a technicality, but does that change the analytical result? Unless there is evidence to show that sample were tampered with or that the analyses were flawed (IE false positives), then all the rest is "lawyer speak". This has nothing to do with whether or not Landis cheated. It has solely to do with his culpability for cheating. Its time we recognised the difference, legal is not right and moral. As far as I am concerned, if the press reports are correct, and the IRMS indicates exogenous testosterone, the Landis is guilty. IF he gets off is another story.
I don't think improper conduct from the UCI will have a bearing on the final outcome of Floyd's case. However, the UCI could sanction or discipline some of its employees if they find they were in violation of their rules.

The "golden opportunity" for Floyd is to prove that the lab violated rules by identifying specific riders' samples prior to testing. If Floyd can prove LNDD knew they were testing his sample then he may get off the hook. That may be a large task to prove, but Floyd seems to be making bold statements regarding this claim. If I were him I would be somewhat careful, because if this is not true, he could be liable for defamation.

Overall I found much of the article informative, but the analysis at the end seemed biased, coming from the perspective of a defense attorney. It is also somewhat unclear to me if the UCI officially violated any of its rules. The rule he cites states:
"License-Holders who are asserted to have committed a violation of these Anti-Doping Rules shall in principle not be publicly identified until it has been determined [at a hearing] that an anti-doping violation has occurred."
Remember, the UCI didn't publicly identify Landis. They only mentioned that a positive test occured. It was Phonak who told the world it was Landis' positive test. I'm not saying what the UCI did was smart nor were McQuaid's immediate statements, but I would question whether it broke the rules. Clearly, someone within the UCI did break the rules by leaking to the NY Times the bit about exogenous testosterone being found in the A sample. I hope they find out who did it and discipline them accordingly, but I don't think/remember the UCI officially stating this.

He also states, "Additionally, as McQuaid observed, the French lab has a history of leaking sample results to L'Equipe; these leaks are in violation of the UCI Anti-Doping Rules and the WADA Laboratory Code of Ethics. From the standpoint of due process, one would ask why the UCI violated its own rules, given the history of this lab, rather than requesting that WADA sanction the lab for past violations of the Anti-Doping Rules, as required under the WADA International Standard for Laboratories."

In this particular case there is no evidence (publicly presented at this time) that the lab leaked ANY information nor that they knew which rider they were testing. The leaks, given to the NY Times, came from the UCI. So I think the article tries to imply that the lab acted improperly when I haven't seen evidence presented to support that claim.

I think the author's final statement shows some bias. "Right after it starts following the Rules that are already in place."

I did find his analysis of the current holes in the rules very good and I hope the UCI does try to fix these.
 
Furthermore, McQuaid offered a secondary rationale for violating the Rules: "Also, we know that the French laboratory has a close connection with L'Equipe, and we did not want this news to come through the press, because we are sure they would have leaked it." That comment raises another set of violations of the UCI Anti-Doping Rules. Under UCI Rules, samples are supposed to be anonymous-the laboratory is not supposed to know which sample belongs to which rider. If the lab in question had any information that would allow it to identify the samples, that would be a clear violation of UCI Rules, and would present Landis with a golden defense opportunity. Additionally, as McQuaid observed, the French lab has a history of leaking sample results to L'Equipe; these leaks are in violation of the UCI Anti-Doping Rules and the WADA Laboratory Code of Ethics. From the standpoint of due process, one would ask why the UCI violated its own rules, given the history of this lab, rather than requesting that WADA sanction the lab for past violations of the Anti-Doping Rules, as required under the WADA International Standard for Laboratories.
That pretty much sums it up.
 
AS much as I wish Landis to be found innocent, I can't see how his lawyer can be privy to any improper proceedures by the lab.

I think Landis is hoping against hope on this one. He has dug himself into a hole if he is truly guilty and if somehow he is set up or there is a mistake, i am sure we will never know in this lifetime. Either way he is cooked well done.

If Landis or his lawyer were knowledgeable about anything of relivance they would bring it up as soon as possible. Anything later is simply posturing in my opinion.

tucson guy
 
tasmart said:
OK, Having read the lawyer produced document referenced, can any one of you explain to me, just how does failure to follow reporting protocol in any way affect the results of laboratory analytical results? Sure, Landis may get off on a technicality, but does that change the analytical result? Unless there is evidence to show that sample were tampered with or that the analyses were flawed (IE false positives), then all the rest is "lawyer speak". This has nothing to do with whether or not Landis cheated. It has solely to do with his culpability for cheating. Its time we recognised the difference, legal is not right and moral. As far as I am concerned, if the press reports are correct, and the IRMS indicates exogenous testosterone, the Landis is guilty. IF he gets off is another story.


The tests were supposed to be blind to assure impartiallity. If the lab knew whose sample they were testing, partial lab personnel can skew the results by dropping something into the sample, or tweaking adjustments on the mass spectrometer.

If the lab has a perpetual habit of violating rules, it shows they don't have sufficient integritty to objectively evaluate the samples.

The premature disclosure hinders Landers attorneys sufficient time to evaluate the evidence and find and explain why the tests might be flawed before such revelations boil into a pile of entrenched positions of preconcieved prejudices on the issue of guilt or innocence. There are at least two sides to an argument and tilting the playing field against one side precludes that side's getting their fair chance to get their point accross. That's a point well illustrated in the Richard Jewel case with the FBI's leaks about him in the Atlanta Olympic bombings.

The procedural due process requirements are set in place to give all sides a fair chance at presenting their evidence and preventing witch hunts from allowing tyrants the opportunity to ruin persons based on their personal whim.
 
I don't believe Landis being innocent but he might get off on a technicality with help of UCI! So , if UCI's leak were to save Landis?

Now, with TDF ethics code, there is no chance for Floyd to ride again TDF!
 
meb said:
The tests were supposed to be blind to assure impartiallity. If the lab knew whose sample they were testing, partial lab personnel can skew the results by dropping something into the sample, or tweaking adjustments on the mass spectrometer.

If the lab has a perpetual habit of violating rules, it shows they don't have sufficient integritty to objectively evaluate the samples.
Lab is well-known. Only Armstrong, in his vendeta, is trying to destroy its reputation with lies as you repeat, as repeat misinformed (tabloïds') reporter too.

(Sample B had been tested with Landis lawyers)
 
poulidor said:
Lab is well-known. Only Armstrong, in his vendeta, is trying to destroy its reputation with lies as you repeat, as repeat misinformed (tabloïds') reporter too.

(Sample B had been tested with Landis lawyers)

I thought you said there was no "vendetta"? :confused:
Make up your mind, man!
 
It's really the UCI that looks bad here, by making an official decision not to follow their own rules (the initial announcement of the A sample T/E positive) and then failing to exercise institutional control over people in a priviliged position (the second leak of the CI test results). If ever there was a time for strict adherence to procedure, it's when a TDF winner has been accused of doping - that's never happened before.

McQuaid's statement about LNDD and L'Equipe further muddies the waters. Given his position, that was an inflammatory remark to make, as LNDD occupies a position of considerable trust. Besides, what does it matter if LNDD leaks sample results to L'Equipe, if that sample can't be identified? For sure, Landis wasn't going to give Ressiot permission to look at the sheets - that trick won't work twice. So why make that statement and use it as a justification for a departure from rules? It served no useful purpose, and injected an air of mistrust into a very high profile situation. I can understand McQuaid thinking this, but am puzzled as to why he would vocalize it in a public statement.

My gut feel at this moment is that the transgressions did not skew the test results. But I do wonder what motivated the UCI to depart from procedure, when a serious spotlight was on them.
 
JohnO said:
Besides, what does it matter if LNDD leaks sample results to L'Equipe, if that sample can't be identified?
Isn't that the whole point? How could the lab leak the name of the rider to L'Equipe if it didn't KNOW the name of the rider to begin with? To know the name of the rider means they can link the sample to the riders and that isn't fair, nor good.

L
 
Lonnie Utah said:
Isn't that the whole point? How could the lab leak the name of the rider to L'Equipe if it didn't KNOW the name of the rider to begin with? To know the name of the rider means they can link the sample to the riders and that isn't fair, nor good.
who had leaked the names to lab? and why?
 
Lonnie Utah said:
Isn't that the whole point? How could the lab leak the name of the rider to L'Equipe if it didn't KNOW the name of the rider to begin with? To know the name of the rider means they can link the sample to the riders and that isn't fair, nor good.

L
LNDD didn't leak a name on the CI test, by that point, the name was already known. They, or someone at the lab, probably did leak the results of the CI test on the A sample, as it was published at about the time the test would have been completed, and published in L'Equipe, for whom the UCI has no love.

By his statement, McQuaid may be hinting that there has been improper transfer of information between LNDD and another organization, possibly the French sports ministry who I believe has copies of the doping control sheets. It has been rumored that just such a transfer prompted Ressiot to try to get Armstrong's doping sheets last year, and no one else's.

Personally, I have a hard time swallowing any French conspiracy theories, because they probably suffered more harm than anyone from the Landis affair.
 
wineandkeyz said:
I thought you said there was no "vendetta"? :confused:
Make up your mind, man!
There were no vendetta from Ressiot against Armstrong, only a bet "Prove it" had said LA, Ressiot has it done.

But LA has a vendetta with his false and repeated comments against lab and L'Equipe, he knows perfectly L'Equipe is not a tabloïd and LNDD is well-known, make its works very well, is world leader to catch rEPO in urine.
Isn't it vendetta?
 
poulidor said:
There were no vendetta from Ressiot against Armstrong, only a bet "Prove it" had said LA, Ressiot has it done.

But LA has a vendetta with his false and repeated comments against lab and L'Equipe, he knows perfectly L'Equipe is not a tabloïd and LNDD is well-known, make its works very well, is world leader to catch rEPO in urine.
Isn't it vendetta?

No, Ressiot hasn't it done. He was the one who set out to "get" Armstrong, and lied out of his ass to do it. L'Equipe may not be a "tabloid" in the strictest sense of the word, but the sensationalism of their story on Armstrong would have made the editors of the National Enquirer green with envy. And the LNDD is "well-known" due to the fact it's as leaky as a chicken wire canoe.
 

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