verticale dropout

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Fixed, Oct 10, 2004.

  1. Fixed

    Fixed Guest

    Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    dropouts?
    give and take a few years

    Thanks,

    Taeke
     
    Tags:


  2. Fixed wrote:

    > Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    > dropouts?
    > give and take a few years


    Early 1990s. There was a substantial crossover period though.
     
  3. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    Zog The Undeniable wrote:

    > Fixed wrote:
    >
    >> Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    >> dropouts?
    >> give and take a few years

    >
    > Early 1990s. There was a substantial crossover period though.


    Mainstream, anyway. Actually they go way, way back, probably to the dawn of the
    rear derailer. I'm sure someone had their brain turned on back then.

    Matt O.
     
  4. Jeff Wills

    Jeff Wills Guest

    "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > Zog The Undeniable wrote:
    >
    > > Fixed wrote:
    > >
    > >> Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    > >> dropouts?
    > >> give and take a few years

    > >
    > > Early 1990s. There was a substantial crossover period though.

    >
    > Mainstream, anyway. Actually they go way, way back, probably to the dawn of the
    > rear derailer. I'm sure someone had their brain turned on back then.
    >
    > Matt O.


    Ditto- I was using Campy vertical dropouts on a recumbent trike
    project ( http://www.pacifier.com/~jwills/Gallery/Aerorivr.jpg ) in
    1982. I think they were in the Campy catalog five years before that-
    if not more.

    Jeff
     
  5. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    Fixed wrote:
    > Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    > dropouts?
    > give and take a few years


    about 1960.


    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  6. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > Fixed wrote:
    >> Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    >> dropouts?
    >> give and take a few years


    Zog The Undeniable wrote:> Early 1990s. There was a
    substantial crossover period though.

    Uh, about 30 years before that.
    In the 60s, Jackson and Bertin at least used them, that I
    know of. By 1971 Garlatti/Welker used them for all models.
    The affordable 1973 Sekai 2400 had them and by the late
    seventies they were not unusual. I'm sure others can recall
    other brands/models. And most custom builders offered them
    even if they were not standard.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  7. Fixed-<< Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    dropouts? >><BR><BR>

    There are still 'race framesets' that use horizontal dropouts...

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  8. matt-<< Actually they go way, way back, probably to the dawn of the
    rear derailer. I'm sure someone had their brain turned on back then.
    >><BR><BR>


    Before that...flipflop hubs with a bigger cog on one side for climbing...had to
    have horizontal dropouts or at least a chain tensioner...probably early
    1900s...easily in the first TdF...

    Peter Chisholm
    Vecchio's Bicicletteria
    1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535
    http://www.vecchios.com
    "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  9. A Muzi wrote:

    >> Fixed wrote:
    >>
    >>> Does anyone know when the race framebuilders started to use verticale
    >>> dropouts?
    >>> give and take a few years

    >
    >
    > Zog The Undeniable wrote:> Early 1990s. There was a substantial
    > crossover period though.
    >
    > Uh, about 30 years before that.
    > In the 60s, Jackson and Bertin at least used them, that I know of. By
    > 1971 Garlatti/Welker used them for all models. The affordable 1973 Sekai
    > 2400 had them and by the late seventies they were not unusual. I'm sure
    > others can recall other brands/models. And most custom builders offered
    > them even if they were not standard.
    >

    I suppose it depends what your definition of "framebuilders" is. My
    1992 racing bike has horizontal dropouts and IIRC is was about 50-50
    around that time. Some people preferred the old type because you could
    get a badly-dished wheel to work, e.g. if you got one from a neutral
    service vehicle.
     
  10. a shy person writes:

    > Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to use
    > verticale dropouts give and take a few years?


    Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts and equipped
    the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first saw them. I made
    replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with them. Cino
    Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo, gave him a set. A
    year or so later, these were offered as standard equipment on many
    Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

    There was a reticence to use them because they could not easily be
    used with a fixed gear, something racers of the day used religiously
    for early season training on their road bicycles... because the
    ancients did that. This fad faded and so did the horizontal dropout
    that was part of the cause for axle failures, the jam nut being
    supported only vertically and free to swivel fore and aft with chain
    tension that is several times as great as vertical bending loads.

    Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in handlebar stems,
    slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.

    Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email protected]
     
  11. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    [email protected] writes:

    > a shy person writes:
    >
    >> Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to use
    >> verticale dropouts give and take a few years?

    >
    > Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts and
    > equipped the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first saw them.
    > I made replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with them.
    > Cino Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo, gave him a
    > set. A year or so later, these were offered as standard equipment
    > on many Campagnolo equipped bicycles.


    <snip>

    > Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in handlebar stems,
    > slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.
    >
    > Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.


    And even longer, the French "constructeurs" having used them on bikes
    for randonneurs in the 40's so that a tight fender line could be
    maintained from the seat tube to the mounting stays- along with a
    dropout mounted "dummy cog" onto which the chain could be shifted to
    remove the rear wheel without having to directly touch the chain. On
    the other hand, their adherence to the Cyclo and Nivex derailleurs
    held them back as that technology improved.

    As well, "threadless" stems were common among high-end French bikes
    such as Singer and Herse in the 40's to 50's and abandoned because of
    lack of easy adjustment for height. In those days, the headsets were
    still threaded and the stem clamped onto a short piece of plain tubing
    brazed into the top of the steerer. That actually makes more sense to
    me than the current threadless design, which makes bearing preload
    dependent on the stem pinch bolt; if your bars get knocked off-center
    somehow, you may have to readjust the headset rather than just
    twisting the bars back on-center and riding away.

    There are drawings of attempts at shifter-controlled indexed shifting
    in the 40's as well, documented by Daniel Rebour. Ditto front and
    rear suspension.
     
  12. Waal

    Waal Guest

    "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> skrev i en meddelelse
    news:[email protected]
    > [email protected] writes:
    >
    > > a shy person writes:
    > >
    > >> Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to use
    > >> verticale dropouts give and take a few years?

    > >
    > > Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts and
    > > equipped the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first saw them.
    > > I made replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with them.
    > > Cino Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo, gave him a
    > > set. A year or so later, these were offered as standard equipment
    > > on many Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > > Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in handlebar stems,
    > > slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.
    > >
    > > Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

    >
    > And even longer, the French "constructeurs" having used them on bikes
    > for randonneurs in the 40's so that a tight fender line could be
    > maintained from the seat tube to the mounting stays- along with a
    > dropout mounted "dummy cog" onto which the chain could be shifted to
    > remove the rear wheel without having to directly touch the chain. On
    > the other hand, their adherence to the Cyclo and Nivex derailleurs
    > held them back as that technology improved.
    >
    > As well, "threadless" stems were common among high-end French bikes
    > such as Singer and Herse in the 40's to 50's and abandoned because of
    > lack of easy adjustment for height. In those days, the headsets were
    > still threaded and the stem clamped onto a short piece of plain tubing
    > brazed into the top of the steerer. That actually makes more sense to
    > me than the current threadless design, which makes bearing preload
    > dependent on the stem pinch bolt; if your bars get knocked off-center
    > somehow, you may have to readjust the headset rather than just
    > twisting the bars back on-center and riding away.
    >
    > There are drawings of attempts at shifter-controlled indexed shifting
    > in the 40's as well, documented by Daniel Rebour. Ditto front and
    > rear suspension.


    Sachs 3 speed index in the late 30's

    Michael
     
  13. Jay Beattie

    Jay Beattie Guest

    "Waal" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> skrev i en meddelelse
    > news:[email protected]
    > > [email protected] writes:
    > >
    > > > a shy person writes:
    > > >
    > > >> Does anyone know when the race frame builders started to

    use
    > > >> verticale dropouts give and take a few years?
    > > >
    > > > Diamant bicycles from East Germany used vertical dropouts

    and
    > > > equipped the team for the 1960 Rome Olympics where I first

    saw them.
    > > > I made replicas and had Cinelli build bicycles for me with

    them.
    > > > Cino Cinelli being a close friend of Tullio Campagnolo,

    gave him a
    > > > set. A year or so later, these were offered as standard

    equipment
    > > > on many Campagnolo equipped bicycles.

    > >
    > > <snip>
    > >
    > > > Progress comes slowly in some technical areas as in

    handlebar stems,
    > > > slick tires, indexed shifting, etc.
    > > >
    > > > Hey, that's forty four years ago for the vertical dropout.

    > >
    > > And even longer, the French "constructeurs" having used them

    on bikes
    > > for randonneurs in the 40's so that a tight fender line could

    be
    > > maintained from the seat tube to the mounting stays- along

    with a
    > > dropout mounted "dummy cog" onto which the chain could be

    shifted to
    > > remove the rear wheel without having to directly touch the

    chain. On
    > > the other hand, their adherence to the Cyclo and Nivex

    derailleurs
    > > held them back as that technology improved.
    > >
    > > As well, "threadless" stems were common among high-end French

    bikes
    > > such as Singer and Herse in the 40's to 50's and abandoned

    because of
    > > lack of easy adjustment for height. In those days, the

    headsets were
    > > still threaded and the stem clamped onto a short piece of

    plain tubing
    > > brazed into the top of the steerer. That actually makes more

    sense to
    > > me than the current threadless design, which makes bearing

    preload
    > > dependent on the stem pinch bolt; if your bars get knocked

    off-center
    > > somehow, you may have to readjust the headset rather than

    just
    > > twisting the bars back on-center and riding away.
    > >
    > > There are drawings of attempts at shifter-controlled indexed

    shifting
    > > in the 40's as well, documented by Daniel Rebour. Ditto

    front and
    > > rear suspension.

    >
    > Sachs 3 speed index in the late 30's


    I invented the internet in 1967, but my idea got snatched by Al
    Gore. -- Jay Beattie.
     
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