very interesting legal drug users analysis

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Jtn, May 20, 2003.

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  1. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    "Among the Olympic athletes, asthma was most common among cyclists and mountain bikers and least
    common in athletes competing in badminton, beach volleyball, table tennis and volleyball.
    Interestingly, nearly 30% of the 1996 U.S. Olympians who had asthma or took asthma medications won
    team or individual medals in their Olympic competition, faring as well as athletes without asthma
    (28.7%) who earned team or individual medals."

    so one in three who were drugged up won a medal. better get down to the docs and get some of that
    medal winning juice....curious to know how many pro cyclist are on prescriptions for inhalers....new
    race scheme, inhalers start 5 minutes behind the non inhalers.....
     
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  2. Andy Coggan

    Andy Coggan Guest

    "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > "Among the Olympic athletes, asthma was most common among cyclists and mountain bikers and least
    > common in athletes competing in badminton, beach volleyball, table tennis and volleyball.
    > Interestingly, nearly 30% of the 1996 U.S. Olympians who had asthma or took asthma medications won
    > team or individual medals in their Olympic competition, faring as well as athletes without asthma
    > (28.7%) who earned team or individual medals."
    >
    > so one in three who were drugged up won a medal. better get down to the
    docs
    > and get some of that medal winning juice....curious to know how many pro cyclist are on
    > prescriptions for inhalers....new race scheme, inhalers
    start
    > 5 minutes behind the non inhalers.....

    Your slam would make a lot more sense if:

    1) asthama medications were ergogenic in individuals who do not suffer from asthma
    (they're not), and

    2) if there was a significant difference in the percentage of asthmatic and non-asthmatic
    individuals who medaled in Olympic competition (based on the quote above, there isn't).

    Andy Coggan
     
  3. JTN wrote:

    > so one in three who were drugged up won a medal. better get down to the docs and get some of that
    > medal winning juice....curious to know how many pro cyclist are on prescriptions for
    > inhalers....new race scheme, inhalers start 5 minutes behind the non inhalers.....

    Interesting. Comment from an Irish exercise physio on the British skier who tested positive at the
    Winter Olympics - "To get that sort of reading [for salbutamol], he'd have had to drink the contents
    of the bottle, not inhale a dose." STF
     
  4. Kb

    Kb Guest

    But regardless, as Andy said, salbutamol will only help open blocked airways. Beyond that, its
    pretty much useless.

    "Stewart Fleming" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > JTN wrote:
    >
    > > so one in three who were drugged up won a medal. better get down to the
    docs
    > > and get some of that medal winning juice....curious to know how many pro cyclist are on
    > > prescriptions for inhalers....new race scheme, inhalers
    start
    > > 5 minutes behind the non inhalers.....
    >
    > Interesting. Comment from an Irish exercise physio on the British skier
    who
    > tested positive at the Winter Olympics - "To get that sort of reading [for salbutamol], he'd have
    > had to drink the contents of the bottle, not inhale
    a
    > dose." STF
     
  5. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    so taking a inhaler like say halbuteral wouldnt help your performance?? is it legal to take it as a
    pro and compete if you have a script?

    "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > "Among the Olympic athletes, asthma was most common among cyclists and mountain bikers and least
    > > common in athletes competing in badminton,
    beach
    > > volleyball, table tennis and volleyball. Interestingly, nearly 30% of
    the
    > > 1996 U.S. Olympians who had asthma or took asthma medications won team
    or
    > > individual medals in their Olympic competition, faring as well as
    athletes
    > > without asthma (28.7%) who earned team or individual medals."
    > >
    > > so one in three who were drugged up won a medal. better get down to the
    > docs
    > > and get some of that medal winning juice....curious to know how many pro cyclist are on
    > > prescriptions for inhalers....new race scheme, inhalers
    > start
    > > 5 minutes behind the non inhalers.....
    >
    > Your slam would make a lot more sense if:
    >
    > 1) asthama medications were ergogenic in individuals who do not suffer
    from
    > asthma (they're not), and
    >
    > 2) if there was a significant difference in the percentage of asthmatic
    and
    > non-asthmatic individuals who medaled in Olympic competition (based on the quote above,
    > there isn't).
    >
    > Andy Coggan
     
  6. KB wrote:
    > But regardless, as Andy said, salbutamol will only help open blocked airways. Beyond that, its
    > pretty much useless.

    I'm wondering whether or not with excess use, that it works in combination with another agent to
    have an ergogenic effect. (I've heard the "salbutamol is not an ergogenic aid" line from several
    exercise physios now, so I have no reason to doubt that assertion.

    If the usage is common, there are a few options to consider:
    - that it is a placebo, that the athlete perceives that an enhancing effect will be gained that is
    much greater than the real, although minor, effect of clearing blocked airways

    - that it has no ergogenic effect

    - that it does have an ergogenic effect (particularly in excess quantity) alone (dubious in light of
    Andy's comments)

    - that it has an ergogenic effect in combination with another substance (in this line, I think of
    creatine alone as having a slight beneficial effect, but creatine + nandrolone having a
    SIGNIFICANT ergogenic effect.) STF
     
  7. Kyle Legate

    Kyle Legate Guest

    JTN wrote:
    > so taking a inhaler like say halbuteral wouldnt help your performance??
    >
    Correct.

    > is it legal to take it as a pro and compete if you have a script?
    >
    Yes, it happens all the time. This is why Gonzalez de Galdeano wasn't sanctioned last year.
     
  8. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, Kyle Legate <[email protected]> wrote:

    > JTN wrote:
    > > so taking a inhaler like say halbuteral wouldnt help your performance??
    > >
    > Correct.

    Well, to answer two questions at once... If you have airways that are not fully dialated then
    albuterol can help dialate them. If a person goes for a lung function test and their predicted
    maximum is x, and their actual result is .9x, albuterol can help them get to x or maybe 1.1x. In my
    own test, there were results shown for 3 different parameters measuring lung function. My actual
    values were a pproximately 1.05x, .95x and .74x (small airways in the lower lungs were constricted).
    Using albuterol got the results to about
    1.2x, 1.1x and .95x, respectively.

    Albuterol works by kind of stimulating the (beta-adrenergic) receptors in lung and bronchial airways
    (and heart!) that respond to adrenalin. A side benefit of albuterol is that it can make the heart
    more responsive to adrenalin (raises heart rate), and that can be a good thing for a bike racer. Of
    course, caffeine can raise heart rate too.

    -WG
     
  9. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    Albuterol (salbutamol outside the US) is allowed with pre-notification. As others have pointed out
    it has little, if any, ergogenic benefit in the absence of airways disease. Like most of the
    substances that are controlled in athletics, it is controlled not because it has an ergogenic
    benefit but because it has been perceived to have some sort of benefit and this has lead to it being
    used in excessive dosages and otherwise inappropriately. It is certainly not surprising that
    athletes involved in sports that are heavily aerobic like cycling are more likely to use agents to
    treat airway disease compared to athletes in less aerobic sports, like badminton. It is unlikely
    that all the athletes that are using albuterol actually have airways disease but used within
    acceptable doses they are neither gaining any benefit or exposing themselves to undue risk.

    --
    Mike Murray MD
     
  10. Tom Kunich

    Tom Kunich Guest

    "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:200520031803276662%[email protected]...
    >
    > A side benefit of albuterol is that it can make the heart more
    responsive
    > to adrenalin (raises heart rate), and that can be a good thing for a bike racer. Of course,
    > caffeine can raise heart rate too.

    Raising your heart rate is probably a bad thing. Remember that increased heart rates narrows the
    work band of the body.

    I suspect that if you were to use the drug to kickstart your heart for a short event like those in
    which studies examine drugged performance for short high intensity periods you might actually test a
    little bit better than someone that didn't warm up properly. But for a longer test you'd probably
    see more rapid exhaustion though you might also see some masking effect of the effects of exhaustion
    from the drug.

    The upshot of this is that I would expect no real increases in performance from using asthma drugs
    though there are circumstances in which you might measure some significant differences in short term
    performance over a badly prepared (though otherwise equal) subject.

    It is likely that asthmatics make slightly better athletes for the same reason that people with bad
    eyesight make slightly better pool players - because the minor handicap causes them to concentrate a
    great deal more on their sport.
     
  11. MD-CYCLIST

    MD-CYCLIST New Member

    Joined:
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    Dear Fello Cyclists

    I have a question and is conserning Sports suppliments but Not directly connected to this Thread, I would like to know if CREATINE is legal in Cycling I know its Legal in Athletics as I used to use as a athlete and I know many Athletes are on Creatine, I am now using creatine as I feel its helping me with my endurance but what I wanted to know is it legal in Cycling, I hope you can clarify this to me and I hope to hear from you very soon.

    Kind regards
    A H Khadra
     
  12. Dan

    Dan Guest

    Stewart Fleming <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > KB wrote:
    > > But regardless, as Andy said, salbutamol will only help open blocked airways. Beyond that, its
    > > pretty much useless.
    >
    > I'm wondering whether or not with excess use, that it works in combination with another agent to
    > have an ergogenic effect. (I've heard the "salbutamol is not an ergogenic aid" line from several
    > exercise physios now, so I have no reason to doubt that assertion.
    >
    > If the usage is common, there are a few options to consider:
    > - that it is a placebo, that the athlete perceives that an enhancing effect will be gained that is
    > much greater than the real, although minor, effect of clearing blocked airways
    >
    > - that it has no ergogenic effect
    >
    > - that it does have an ergogenic effect (particularly in excess quantity) alone (dubious in light
    > of Andy's comments)
    >
    > - that it has an ergogenic effect in combination with another substance (in this line, I think of
    > creatine alone as having a slight beneficial effect, but creatine + nandrolone having a
    > SIGNIFICANT ergogenic effect.) STF

    Thanks for both of your thoughtful posts.
     
  13. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    so I have been flogging myself for no reason? the reason I did the research and found what I did is
    that I have been scripted to use this stuff for the last 4 years. I haven't used it and around
    allergy season I go backwards on the bike. and that's when riding down hill. I can attest to the
    person not using it that you have an asthmatic attack every time your HR goes a couple of % above
    your threshold. then its scary shit knowing your about to pass out from lacka when the rest of the
    group is looking at you like your some kind of freak. so let me ask this, again. what are the long
    term side affects if I do succumb to using big al inhalers? do I have to use them for the entire
    year? it would seem that use of them long term would damage the lungs, heart etc...? will I be world
    champion by next year?

    oh yea, Colorado should get rid of all purple mustard weeds. that's the culprit.....pray for no rain
    and lots of lowland fires.....lololo

    "Mike Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > Albuterol (salbutamol outside the US) is allowed with pre-notification.
    As
    > others have pointed out it has little, if any, ergogenic benefit in the absence of airways
    > disease. Like most of the substances that are controlled in athletics, it is controlled not
    > because it has an ergogenic benefit but because it has been perceived to have some sort of benefit
    > and this has lead to it being used in excessive dosages and otherwise inappropriately. It is
    > certainly not surprising that athletes involved in sports that are heavily aerobic like cycling
    > are more likely to use agents to treat airway disease compared to athletes in less aerobic sports,
    > like badminton. It is unlikely that all the athletes that are using albuterol actually have
    > airways disease but used within acceptable doses they are neither gaining any benefit or exposing
    > themselves to undue risk.
    >
    > --
    > Mike Murray MD
     
  14. Bg

    Bg Guest

    JTN, My doc says I shouldn't have to be using inhaler daily or even several times a week. Since I
    started Advair, one of those inhaled steroid things, I may need inhaler only if I get around cats or
    mold. It really helped the winter exercise induced stuff. bg

    JTN wrote:

    > so I have been flogging myself for no reason? the reason I did the research and found what I did
    > is that I have been scripted to use this stuff for the last 4 years. I haven't used it and around
    > allergy season I go backwards on the bike. and that's when riding down hill. I can attest to the
    > person not using it that you have an asthmatic attack every time your HR goes a couple of % above
    > your threshold. then its scary shit knowing your about to pass out from lacka when the rest of the
    > group is looking at you like your some kind of freak. so let me ask this, again. what are the long
    > term side affects if I do succumb to using big al inhalers? do I have to use them for the entire
    > year? it would seem that use of them long term would damage the lungs, heart etc...? will I be
    > world champion by next year?
    >
    > oh yea, Colorado should get rid of all purple mustard weeds. that's the culprit.....pray for no
    > rain and lots of lowland fires.....lololo
    >
    > "Mike Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > > Albuterol (salbutamol outside the US) is allowed with pre-notification.
    > As
    > > others have pointed out it has little, if any, ergogenic benefit in the absence of airways
    > > disease. Like most of the substances that are controlled in athletics, it is controlled not
    > > because it has an ergogenic benefit but because it has been perceived to have some sort of
    > > benefit and this has lead to it being used in excessive dosages and otherwise inappropriately.
    > > It is certainly not surprising that athletes involved in sports that are heavily aerobic like
    > > cycling are more likely to use agents to treat airway disease compared to athletes in less
    > > aerobic sports, like badminton. It is unlikely that all the athletes that are using albuterol
    > > actually have airways disease but used within acceptable doses they are neither gaining any
    > > benefit or exposing themselves to undue risk.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Mike Murray MD
    > >
    > >
     
  15. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    On 21 May 2003 22:00:28 +0950, MD-CYCLIST <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I have a question and is conserning Sports suppliments but Not directly connected to this
    > Thread, I would like to know if CREATINE is legal in Cycling I know its Legal in Athletics as I
    > used to use as a athlete and I know many Athletes are on Creatine, I am now using creatine as I
    > feel its helping me with my endurance but what I wanted to know is it legal in Cycling, I hope
    > you can clarify this to me and I hope to hear from you very soon.
    >
    >Kind regards A H Khadra

    Considering it's contained generously in meat, it'd better be legal.

    --
    Scott Johnson "There is nothing, I think, more unfortunate than to have soft, chubby, fat-looking
    children who go to watch their school play basketball every Saturday and regard that as their week's
    exercise."
    - John F. Kennedy, 1962
     
  16. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, MD-CYCLIST <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Dear Fello Cyclists
    >
    > I have a question and is conserning Sports suppliments but Not directly connected to this
    > Thread, I would like to know if CREATINE is legal in Cycling I know its Legal in Athletics as I
    > used to use as a athlete and I know many Athletes are on Creatine, I am now using creatine as I
    > feel its helping me with my endurance but what I wanted to know is it legal in Cycling, I hope
    > you can clarify this to me and I hope to hear from you very soon.

    It's legal for cycling. Do a little research on the phosphocreatine energy cycle and you'll learn
    why creatine supplementation will do nothing positve for endurance. It may be helpful for efforts
    less than 20 seconds long.

    -WG
     
  17. Warren

    Warren Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, JTN <[email protected]> wrote:

    > so I have been flogging myself for no reason? the reason I did the research and found what I did
    > is that I have been scripted to use this stuff for the last 4 years. I haven't used it and around
    > allergy season I go backwards on the bike. and that's when riding down hill. I can attest to the
    > person not using it that you have an asthmatic attack every time your HR goes a couple of % above
    > your threshold. then its scary shit knowing your about to pass out from lacka when the rest of
    > the group is looking at you like your some kind of freak. so let me ask this, again. what are the
    > long term side affects if I do succumb to using big al inhalers? do I have to use them for the
    > entire year?

    Albuterol works quickly and lasts about 4 hours. You could use it a few minutes before each ride.

    > it would seem that use of them long term would damage the lungs, heart etc...?

    Haven't seen evidence of that.

    > will I be world champion by next year?

    Yes.

    -WG
     
  18. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    "JTN" <[email protected]> wrote: "so I have been flogging myself for no reason?"

    Yes.

    JTN also asks: "what are the long term side affects if I do succumb to using big al inhalers?"

    Long term side effects are pretty minimal. You may have a slightly greater requirement for using
    beta agonist inhealers the more frequently you use them but this is pretty minimal.

    " do I have to use them for the entire year?"

    No. It is best to just use them as needed.

    " it would seem that use of them long term would damage the lungs, heart etc...?"

    This does not appear to be the case. I do not know why it would seem that it should be either.

    "will I be world champion by next year?"

    No.

    Mike Murray MD
     
  19. Mike Murray

    Mike Murray Guest

    "bg" <[email protected]> wrote: " My doc says I shouldn't have to be using inhaler daily or even
    several times a week. Since I started Advair, one of those inhaled steroid things, I may need
    inhaler only if I get around cats or mold."

    There is no reason why you shouldn't use the beta agonist inhaler as frequently as you need to but
    if you are using it most days then you should be also using a steroid inhaler. Using the steroid
    inhaler may make it so you don't have to use the beta agonist inhaler as frequently. Steroid
    inhalers are also allowed for athletes but like the beta agonists they require prescription and
    pre-notification.

    If you need to use albuterol more frequently then every 4 hours then you need to see your doctor and
    get evaluated. One of the reasons that there is an increasing number of asthmatic deaths is that the
    current beta agonist inhalers are so effective and so free of side effects that asthmatics will
    often overuse them rather than seeking medical care. As a consequence they may either never make it
    to medical care or they are far sicker when they finally do.

    --
    Mike Murray MD
     
  20. Jtn

    Jtn Guest

    one says yes, and one says no. 50-50 chance sounds good to me....im going for the worlds jersey....

    "Mike Murray" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:p[email protected]...
    >
    >
    > "will I be world champion by next year?"
    >
    > No.
    >
    > Mike Murray MD
     
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