Very nice.

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> in 488367 20051012 235926 MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >The definition of a dumbass is someone who thinks a period goes outside
> >of quotation marks.
>
> But it does! (except in US English).

Has the matter been settled in Dear Old Blighty?
Henry Fowler gave several column inches to it.

The two sysems are the conventional, stop inside inverted
commas; and the logical, stop outside inverted commas.
There is a lively debate, making this excellent fodder for
rbr.

Quoting _Modern_English_Usage_:

The conventional system is more favoured by editors' and
publishers' rules. But there are important exceptions, and
it is to be hoped that these will make their influence
felt. The conventional system flouts common sense, and it
is not easy for the plain man to se what merit it is
supposed to have to outweigh that defect; even the more
pleasing apperance claimed for it is not likely to go
unquestioned.

--
Michael Press

 

[D. Ferguson]

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 22:26:00 -0400, MagillaGorilla
<[email protected]> wrote:


>
>That's what cycling does - it lets the McEwens of the sport think
>they're somebody special when in fact they're celebrating losing the race.
>
>It's a disgrace.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Magilla


Hopefully they will get rid of this Cat and Masters **** too. And put
Men and Women in together for cryin' out loud.

Ding Dong

 

[Bob Martin]

in 488428 20051013 183439 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> in 488367 20051012 235926 MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >The definition of a dumbass is someone who thinks a period goes outside
>> >of quotation marks.
>>
>> But it does! (except in US English).
>
>Has the matter been settled in Dear Old Blighty?
>Henry Fowler gave several column inches to it.
>
>The two sysems are the conventional, stop inside inverted
>commas; and the logical, stop outside inverted commas.
>There is a lively debate, making this excellent fodder for
>rbr.
<snip quote>

I dispute your use of "conventional" - the method you describe as the
"logical" is the one in general use in the UK, and has been for as long
as I can remember (and I'm an old fart who went to grammar school).

Fowler says "all signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks
must be placed according to the sense" (wth the last 4 words in italics).

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

> in 488428 20051013 183439 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> >Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> in 488367 20051012 235926 MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The definition of a dumbass is someone who thinks a period goes outside
> >> >of quotation marks.
> >>
> >> But it does! (except in US English).
> >
> >Has the matter been settled in Dear Old Blighty?
> >Henry Fowler gave several column inches to it.
> >
> >The two sysems are the conventional, stop inside inverted
> >commas; and the logical, stop outside inverted commas.
> >There is a lively debate, making this excellent fodder for
> >rbr.
> <snip quote>
>
> I dispute your use of "conventional" - the method you describe as the
> "logical" is the one in general use in the UK, and has been for as long
> as I can remember (and I'm an old fart who went to grammar school).

Why dispute with me? `Conventional' is the term used in
MEU. For me it is simply a label; and since it is used in
at least one handbook of usage it is useful. Take some
full breaths, and do not read a value judgment into it.

> Fowler says "all signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks
> must be placed according to the sense" (wth the last 4 words in italics).

Which article? I quoted the final paragraph of
Stops-Inverted Commas, where he suggests sympathy for the
users of both methods; and gives examples where neither
method is entirely satisfactory.

Did you say `Am I my brother's keeper'?
How heartrending was their cry `We are lost'!

--
Michael Press

 

[Bob Martin]

in 488500 20051014 085313 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> in 488428 20051013 183439 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> >Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >> in 488367 20051012 235926 MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >The definition of a dumbass is someone who thinks a period goes outside
>> >> >of quotation marks.
>> >>
>> >> But it does! (except in US English).
>> >
>> >Has the matter been settled in Dear Old Blighty?
>> >Henry Fowler gave several column inches to it.
>> >
>> >The two sysems are the conventional, stop inside inverted
>> >commas; and the logical, stop outside inverted commas.
>> >There is a lively debate, making this excellent fodder for
>> >rbr.
>> <snip quote>
>>
>> I dispute your use of "conventional" - the method you describe as the
>> "logical" is the one in general use in the UK, and has been for as long
>> as I can remember (and I'm an old fart who went to grammar school).
>
>Why dispute with me? `Conventional' is the term used in
>MEU. For me it is simply a label; and since it is used in
>at least one handbook of usage it is useful. Take some
>full breaths, and do not read a value judgment into it.
>
>> Fowler says "all signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks
>> must be placed according to the sense" (wth the last 4 words in italics).
>
>Which article? I quoted the final paragraph of
>Stops-Inverted Commas, where he suggests sympathy for the
>users of both methods; and gives examples where neither
>method is entirely satisfactory.
>
>Did you say `Am I my brother's keeper'?
>How heartrending was their cry `We are lost'!
>
>--
>Michael Press

I've always thought this was a UK-US issue, with the style you referred to
as conventional being the US one and the UK the other one. That makes
your use of the word "conventional" a value judgement.

I was quoting from "The NEW Fowler's MEU" page 646 ("quotation marks" item 2).
Fowler tries to be even-handed over US-UK differences but without saying
when he is doing so.

 

[ronaldo_jeremiah]

They should do exactly that.

-RJ

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I've always thought this was a UK-US issue, with the style you referred to
> as conventional being the US one and the UK the other one. That makes
> your use of the word "conventional" a value judgement.
>

You still do not get it. I did not invent the usage, and
do not support either scheme for managing a full stop
juxtaposed with inverted commas. I use it as a label
because we need a label; and this one appears in a
handbook of usage, to wit:

_Modern_English_Usage_ [1965], second edition, Oxford
University Press, pp 591-592.

Breathe. Study the quotation from MEU that you excised.

--
Michael Press

 

[h squared]

Bob Martin wrote:

> in 488500 20051014 085313 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>in 488428 20051013 183439 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>in 488367 20051012 235926 MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>The definition of a dumbass is someone who thinks a period goes outside
>>>>>>of quotation marks.
>>>>>
>>>>>But it does! (except in US English).
>>>>
>>>>Has the matter been settled in Dear Old Blighty?
>>>>Henry Fowler gave several column inches to it.
>>>>
>>>>The two sysems are the conventional, stop inside inverted
>>>>commas; and the logical, stop outside inverted commas.
>>>>There is a lively debate, making this excellent fodder for
>>>>rbr.
>>>
>>><snip quote>
>>>
>>>I dispute your use of "conventional" - the method you describe as the
>>>"logical" is the one in general use in the UK, and has been for as long
>>>as I can remember (and I'm an old fart who went to grammar school).
>>
>>Why dispute with me? `Conventional' is the term used in
>>MEU. For me it is simply a label; and since it is used in
>>at least one handbook of usage it is useful. Take some
>>full breaths, and do not read a value judgment into it.
>>
>>
>>>Fowler says "all signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks
>>>must be placed according to the sense" (wth the last 4 words in italics).
>>
>>Which article? I quoted the final paragraph of
>>Stops-Inverted Commas, where he suggests sympathy for the
>>users of both methods; and gives examples where neither
>>method is entirely satisfactory.
>>
>>Did you say `Am I my brother's keeper'?
>>How heartrending was their cry `We are lost'!
>>
>>--
>>Michael Press
>
>
> I was quoting from "The NEW Fowler's MEU" page 646 ("quotation marks" item 2).
> Fowler tries to be even-handed over US-UK differences but without saying
> when he is doing so.

just as an aside, i'm not sure, but i think "the new fowler's modern
english usage" was actually written by r.w.burchfield. i copied this out
of the intro:
"fowler's name remains on the title-page, even though his book has
largely been rewritten in this third edition."

anyway, let's not disregard the more important point that the post that
started all this was a lame-o punctuation flame-o.

thanks,
heather
"in regard to other marks, when a comma, full point, colon, or semicolon
is required at the end of a quotation, there is no reason for
perpetuating the bad practice of their undiscriminating inclusion within
the quotation marks at the end of an extract."

 

[h squared]

h squared wrote:

> anyway, let's not disregard the more important point that the post that
> started all this was a lame-o punctuation flame-o.

(i mean magilla's post, not amit's)

h

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

h squared wrote:
> (i mean magilla's post, not amit's)

Hey, where's the full stop?! In- or outside the parentheses?

--
E. Dronkert

 

[h squared]

Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
> h squared wrote:
>
>>(i mean magilla's post, not amit's)
>
>
> Hey, where's the full stop?! In- or outside the parentheses?

i'm afraid to make a commitment :-\
didn't realize punctuation revealed so much about someone's dumbass-ity :-(

will only punctuate with emoticons from now on
i know that will make you happy, e.d. ;-)

h

 

[MagillaGorilla]

h squared wrote:

> Ewoud Dronkert wrote:
>
>> h squared wrote:
>>
>>> (i mean magilla's post, not amit's)
>>
>>
>>
>> Hey, where's the full stop?! In- or outside the parentheses?
>
>
> i'm afraid to make a commitment :-\
> didn't realize punctuation revealed so much about someone's dumbass-ity :-(
>
> will only punctuate with emoticons from now on
> i know that will make you happy, e.d. ;-)
>
> h
>


Such a girl-post...

Magilla

 

[Ewoud Dronkert]

h squared wrote:
> will only punctuate with emoticons from now on
> i know that will make you happy, e.d. ;-)

Mfmppffmp mfffmp.

--
E. Dronkert

 

[Michael Press]

In article <[email protected]>,
h squared <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Bob Martin wrote:
>
> > in 488500 20051014 085313 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>In article <[email protected]>,
> >>Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>in 488428 20051013 183439 Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>In article <[email protected]>,
> >>>>Bob Martin <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>in 488367 20051012 235926 MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>The definition of a dumbass is someone who thinks a period goes outside
> >>>>>>of quotation marks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>But it does! (except in US English).
> >>>>
> >>>>Has the matter been settled in Dear Old Blighty?
> >>>>Henry Fowler gave several column inches to it.
> >>>>
> >>>>The two sysems are the conventional, stop inside inverted
> >>>>commas; and the logical, stop outside inverted commas.
> >>>>There is a lively debate, making this excellent fodder for
> >>>>rbr.
> >>>
> >>><snip quote>
> >>>
> >>>I dispute your use of "conventional" - the method you describe as the
> >>>"logical" is the one in general use in the UK, and has been for as long
> >>>as I can remember (and I'm an old fart who went to grammar school).
> >>
> >>Why dispute with me? `Conventional' is the term used in
> >>MEU. For me it is simply a label; and since it is used in
> >>at least one handbook of usage it is useful. Take some
> >>full breaths, and do not read a value judgment into it.
> >>
> >>
> >>>Fowler says "all signs of punctuation used with words in quotation marks
> >>>must be placed according to the sense" (wth the last 4 words in italics).
> >>
> >>Which article? I quoted the final paragraph of
> >>Stops-Inverted Commas, where he suggests sympathy for the
> >>users of both methods; and gives examples where neither
> >>method is entirely satisfactory.
> >>
> >>Did you say `Am I my brother's keeper'?
> >>How heartrending was their cry `We are lost'!
> >>
> >>--
> >>Michael Press
> >
> >
> > I was quoting from "The NEW Fowler's MEU" page 646 ("quotation marks" item 2).
> > Fowler tries to be even-handed over US-UK differences but without saying
> > when he is doing so.
>
> just as an aside, i'm not sure, but i think "the new fowler's modern
> english usage" was actually written by r.w.burchfield. i copied this out
> of the intro:
> "fowler's name remains on the title-page, even though his book has
> largely been rewritten in this third edition."
>
> anyway, let's not disregard the more important point that the post that
> started all this was a lame-o punctuation flame-o.
>
> thanks,
> heather
> "in regard to other marks, when a comma, full point, colon, or semicolon
> is required at the end of a quotation, there is no reason for
> perpetuating the bad practice of their undiscriminating inclusion within
> the quotation marks at the end of an extract."

When Henry Fowler and brother Frank Fowler set out to
write _The_King's_English_ they were in part responding to
a plague of grammarians scolding `Thou shalt ...' and
`Thou shalt not ...'. The result is a guide to writing
that addresses the reader as a friend and collaborator,
witty, and good hearted. What you quote sounds like the
revenge of the grammarians.

--
Michael Press

 

[h squared]

Michael Press wrote:


h squared <[email protected]>
wrote:
>>"in regard to other marks, when a comma, full point, colon, or semicolon
>>is required at the end of a quotation, there is no reason for
>>perpetuating the bad practice of their undiscriminating inclusion within
>>the quotation marks at the end of an extract."
>
>
> When Henry Fowler and brother Frank Fowler set out to
> write _The_King's_English_ they were in part responding to
> a plague of grammarians scolding `Thou shalt ...' and
> `Thou shalt not ...'. The result is a guide to writing
> that addresses the reader as a friend and collaborator,
> witty, and good hearted. What you quote sounds like the
> revenge of the grammarians.

haven't read the other book, so i'll take your word, but i didn't read
that quote as "the revenge of the grammarians" as it sounded like he was
saying to do what makes sense and not to blindly follow rules (something
i imagine grammarians advocating). but i guess it could sound a little
like scolding- that's kind of why i put it there for mr. gorilla to read.

besides, my philosophy towards "grammar" should be clear from my lack of
any, and you should laugh to see me discussing this subject at all

h

 

[Stu Fleming]

h squared wrote:

> besides, my philosophy towards "grammar" should be clear from my lack of
> any, and you should laugh to see me discussing this subject at all

Most people are still trying to work out from what you wrote if it was
funny or not...