Vino tested positive!



helmutRoole2 said:
Come on, dude. Pull your head out.

They can't get bags of blood past the media, the policia, the race officials. It had to be someone else's blood.

There is no "reintroduce it at a later date." A later date is after the Tour, right?
:confused: he's saying that instead of using someone else's blood he would only store his own and use it later. the later being now.
 
helmutRoole2 said:
Come on, dude. Think about it. They can't get bags of blood past the media, the policia, the race officials. It had to be someone else's blood.
I think this is my first post in this forum, so hello and now to my point. I agree with helmut. The way I see it Vino had been following his pre-tour program and it had all went perfectly, until his crash, I dont know how much blood loss he suffered after it but I suppose we could assume it was substantial, I also imagine it did quite a lot of damage to his pre-tour crit levels. So they use Vino's blood bags (if they were carrying them) to boost him back into the normal range( and by this stage it was too dangerous to start jacking him with EPO or Activegin or any other booster), this wasnt good enough so before the ITT Vino decides that he has nothing to lose and gets a teammate/coach/whoever to donate a pint to the cause, they spin it and he infuses it an hour before the TT (or maybe earlier) and his crit is back into the 50-55 range he probably runs with.

I am convinced he did the same thing yesterday. Clearly he didnt think they were carrying out the test for homologous doping.
 
Espada9 said:
Please explain to me then doctor why would it be easier to transfuse someone else’s blood than your own? Do you even know how this process works? I’m just an idiot who happens to work in the biotech industry so I know nothing about pharmaceuticals.

Removing your own blood and using a small centrifuge is just as easy as transfusing someone else’s blood and makes more sense. Foreign blood can have many adverse side effects and unless that person is an elite athlete their blood would lack the physical characteristics of Vino’s and the genetic markers alone would show up in any test.

Please explain to me how it’s easier to transfuse foreign blood rather than your own? And what would be the benefits of using foreign blood???

I’m all ears.
Dude, come on. Pull your head out already. You've answered you own question about half a dozen times.

There's no advantage to pulling your OWN blood out and then putting it back in a couple hours later.

Earth to Espada9. Come in Espada9.
 
If they were doing this in a 5 hour time scale (for the purposes of this example) Vino body wouldnt have had the time to replace the blood they took out, I have heard from some runners etc. that it takes about 2 weeks to feel normal again after donating blood. To get a boost from blood doping you need to infuse packed cells into an already full system. A bit like over filling your cup.

Espada9 said:
Please explain to me then doctor why would it be easier to transfuse someone else’s blood than your own? Do you even know how this process works? I’m just an idiot who happens to work in the biotech industry so I know nothing about pharmaceuticals.

Removing your own blood and using a small centrifuge is just as easy as transfusing someone else’s blood and makes more sense. Foreign blood can have many adverse side effects and unless that person is an elite athlete their blood would lack the physical characteristics of Vino’s and the genetic markers alone would show up in any test.

Please explain to me how it’s easier to transfuse foreign blood rather than your own? And what would be the benefits of using foreign blood???

I’m all ears.
 
helmutRoole2 said:
Dude, come on. Pull your head out already. You've answered you own question about half a dozen times.

There's no advantage to pulling your OWN blood out and then putting it back in a couple hours later.

Earth to Espada9. Come in Espada9.
You’re dense, remove some blood, place the blood in a centrifuge, pull out the red blood cells, re-inject the “doped” blood and off you go.
“There are a couple of different methods that these people can choose from when blood doping. The first and most traditional way involves transfusing red blood cells directly into one’s body. This can be done by way of an autoglogous transfusion or a homoglogous transfusion.
In an autoglogous transfusion, an athlete will have blood removed from their own body several weeks before a big competition. A centrifuge (a device that uses centrifugal force to separate a fluid from another fluid or solid) is used to separate the red blood cells and they are put into cold storage for a later date. When the athlete’s big event comes around, the red blood cells are then transfused back into his body.”

I suspect the homoglogous method was used so that Vino did not experience the energy loss of removing a pind of your own blood. It had NOTHING to do with “hiding” blood bags or sneaking them past the press or police.
I suggest you take a crash course in biology son.
 
cheapie said:
:confused: he's saying that instead of using someone else's blood he would only store his own and use it later. the later being now.
Okay, I'm not explaining myself clearly. Cheapie as smart guy and if he's missing the point, I'm not communicating.

The race officials are looking for bags of blood or deliveries of bags of blood. Let's say Vino pulled blood several months ago for reintroduction during the Tour but can't get it across enemy lines? Is he ****ed?

Well, assuming he's comfortable with using someone else's donated blood, no. Where's the best place to hide donor blood? How about inside the donor?

What if it were someone you trusted, like your brother? Someone you know wasn't using PEDs or didn't have a blood transmitted disease? I mean, I wouldn't blood dope to begin with, but if I were, hell, I'd roll with my brother's blood.
 
well, this was obvious, winning the time trial after almost abandoning two days before, then losing 30 minutes on plateu de beille and winning the following stage. i knew it right when he won the time-trial , rasmussen is doping and so is the rest of the peloton. so what is cycling going to do? are they going to keep pretending its a clean race and catching only the most obvious dopers(while simultaneously destroying the sport ) or are they going to accept that doping is part of the sport.
 
i think you guys are having a violent agreement. you're both saying the same thing.

1 - it's dumb and potentially dangerous to use someone else's blood.

2 - vino couldn't get his own blood into the tour

3 - he likely used someone else's blood because of the risk of capture

4 - his logic makes little if any sense because of the available tests.
 
Espada9 said:
You’re dense, remove some blood, place the blood in a centrifuge, pull out the red blood cells, re-inject the “doped” blood and off you go.
Wouldn't that just leave you with the same amount of red blood cells? Where's the benefit?
 
helmutRoole2 said:
Okay, I'm not explaining myself clearly. Cheapie as smart guy and if he's missing the point, I'm not communicating.

The race officials are looking for bags of blood or deliveries of bags of blood. Let's say Vino pulled blood several months ago for reintroduction during the Tour but can't get it across enemy lines? Is he ****ed?

Well, assuming he's comfortable with using someone else's donated blood, no. Where's the best place to hide donor blood? How about inside the donor?

What if it were someone you trusted, like your brother? Someone you know wasn't using PEDs or didn't have a blood transmitted disease? I mean, I wouldn't blood dope to begin with, but if I were, hell, I'd roll with my brother's blood.
What use would that blood be unless you had the transfusion equipment and a centrifuge which defeats your “unable to sneak past security” theory.
Blood is of no use unless you manipulate it, there is no physiological benefit to plain blood.
I think he chose the homoglogous transfusion because he couldn’t afford to remove his own blood during the Tour and pay the physical price of low iron,VO2, etc.
 
ATM said:
Wouldn't that just leave you with the same amount of red blood cells? Where's the benefit?
No that’s what the centrifuge is for (you DO know what a centrifuge is right). You pull out the heavier red cells and reinject the blood WITHOUT the plasma, the result is an increased hematocrit without any positive biological or chemical markers.
 
I think this is great. Not for Vino of course, I feel sorry for these guys in a way, they are conditioned to dope. But it is great for the Tour and cycling. This proves that the testing protocol can work and is working.

I've said it before, all this conjecture and rumors do nothing but sell newspapers and damage the sport, but positive test puts fear in the dopers and allows for proper sanctioning and adds credibility to the governing bodies.

Did Vino stick it in Klodi or what?

First you make him support you when you have no chance after crash, you do not support him when a podium is in his grasp, then you hog the team for personal glory, then you get him kicked out of the Tour for your doping. I hope Klodi doesn't have a dog, Vino will be at his house tonight looking to kick it.

Fly Chicken, Fly
 
redLantern said:
well, this was obvious, winning the time trial after almost abandoning two days before, then losing 30 minutes on plateu de beille and winning the following stage. i knew it right when he won the time-trial , rasmussen is doping and so is the rest of the peloton. so what is cycling going to do? are they going to keep pretending its a clean race and catching only the most obvious dopers(while simultaneously destroying the sport ) or are they going to accept that doping is part of the sport.
Met Vino after the world champs in Salzberg. If anyone has doubts he dopes then this pic will set you straight. He is wearing black too!!!
 
Espada9 said:
You’re dense, remove some blood, place the blood in a centrifuge, pull out the red blood cells, re-inject the “doped” blood and off you go...
Okay dad, I think the part you're not taking into account is the 120 days it takes to replace red blood cells. If you pull your blood for reintroduction later, it can't be 10 minutes later, right?

Do you understand that part?

If you do, now go back 120 days on the calendar. Has the Tour started or not started? Because once the Tour starts, you can't get bags of blood into the hotel rooms anymore. Those days are over.

So what does that leave you with? Donor blood. Where can it be found? Any donor with the same blood type.

I say again, earth to Espada9. Come in Espada9.
 
Espada9 said:
No that’s what the centrifuge is for (you DO know what a centrifuge is right). You pull out the heavier red cells and reinject the blood WITHOUT the plasma, the result is an increased hematocrit without any positive biological or chemical markers.
But surely you would reduce your crit by taking the blood out in the first place? Apparanlty for every unit of packed red cells your reinfuse you get a 3 point crit rise. So what would the crit lose be for taking out 500cc of blood?
 
Espada9 said:
No that’s what the centrifuge is for (you DO know what a centrifuge is right). You pull out the heavier red cells and reinject the blood WITHOUT the plasma, the result is an increased hematocrit without any positive biological or chemical markers.
Do you have reading comprehension problems, dude?

Pulling out your own blood then retransfusing it hours later buys you nothing. You end up with the same number of RBCs. The standard technique is to draw the blood, allow a few weeks of micro-dosed EPO recovery and then retransfuse. That's why Fuentes had a metric buttload of riders red cells in cold storage.

What Helmut is saying that if they did not want to risk getting caught smuggling the previously taken RBCs into France, they might have used a staff member. Or a friend or family member. I have often wondered if Hamilton's wife was the source of his foreign blood; she was in on other aspects of his doping.
 
Espada9 said:
What use would that blood be unless you had the transfusion equipment and a centrifuge which defeats your “unable to sneak past security” theory.
Blood is of no use unless you manipulate it, there is no physiological benefit to plain blood.
I think he chose the homoglogous transfusion because he couldn’t afford to remove his own blood during the Tour and pay the physical price of low iron,VO2, etc.
You're backing off our original statement now, right? You know you can't take blood out, spin it and then put it right back in again, correct? I mean, you can, but there would be no benefit to it, right?
 
alvynmcq said:
But surely you would reduce your crit by taking the blood out in the first place? Apparanlty for every unit of packed red cells your reinfuse you get a 3 point crit rise. So what would the crit lose be for taking out 500cc of blood?
Great news! Never liked or trusted Vino and his smug kazaks. Old school rider with old school views, he couldn't care less about cycling or its position. Who else can they catch. I can't believe some peoples views on Vino, how gullable can people be.:)
 
Bro Deal said:
That's why Fuentes had a metric buttload of riders red cells in cold storage..
heh. metric buttload. is that a scientific term? make me laugh. thanks! :D