vo2 max intervals.

[Porkyboy]

Hi

Modeled as a single exponential function, the half-time for VO2 kinetics in endurance trained individuals is ~30 s. Thus, in response to a sudden ("square wave") increase in power output from 0 watts to one that which just elicits VO2max:

it generally takes "a couple of minutes" to get to VO2max, at least when starting from a much lower level of exercise.

In your experience/opinion what power output, in terms of tested FTP, would "just elicit" VO2 max? (100% FTP 120% FTP?)

and..

What power output, in terms of tested FTP, would you define as a "much lower level of exercise"?

Thanks,

PBUK

 

[acoggan]

Hi

In your experience/opinion what power output, in terms of tested FTP, would "just elicit" VO2 max? (100% FTP 120% FTP?)

and..

What power output, in terms of tested FTP, would you define as a "much lower level of exercise"?

Thanks,

PBUK

1. On average, probably about 115% of functional threshold power (although due to VO2 drift, VO2 may eventually rise to maximum at a lower, but still supra-critical power/maximal lactate steady state/functional threshold, power output).

2. Well, I was thinking "level 1" when I wrote what I wrote before.

 

[frost]

Modeled as a single exponential function, the half-time for VO2 kinetics in endurance trained individuals is ~30 s. Thus, in response to a sudden ("square wave") increase in power output from 0 watts to one that which just elicits VO2max:

after ~30 s you would be at ~50% of VO2max

after ~60 s you would be at ~75% of VO2max

after ~90 s you would be at ~87.5% of VO2max

after ~120 s you would be at ~91.25% of VO2max

Etc.

Now a single-exponential is a bit of an oversimplification, and opinions might differ at to what constitutes "at/near VO2max", but nonetheless it is correct that it generally takes "a couple of minutes" to get to VO2max, at least when starting from a much lower level of exercise.

How about the "half-life" of VO2Max progress or how quickly you hit the plateau when concentrating on training VO2Max? I have understood that it happens relatively quickly? But still there is research that indicates that VO2Max can be developed quite much. Is the plateau related to metabolic fitness that prevents training more/harder?

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi Andrew

1. On average, probably about 115% of functional threshold power (although due to VO2 drift, VO2 may eventually rise to maximum at a lower, but still supra-critical power/maximal lactate steady state/functional threshold, power output).

2. Well, I was thinking "level 1" when I wrote what I wrote before.

Thanks for that, very helpful. This confirms that @ 340W with an FTP of 296W I'm working at the right sort of level, pretty much on the 115% nose really! Also raising the load from 175W up to 340W pretty much immediately would seem to fit with the numbers you suggest so I think, as far as I can see and understand, I'm doing them "right"!

Cheers,

PBUK

 

[Simone@Italy]

yesterday, I tried a 6 x 4' @L5 with 3' of resting interval (L1). According to WKO+, the NP for the whole 40 minutes (resting intervals included) is a little lower than my FTP. Is it correct or should it be a higher than FTP?

 

[Porkyboy]

Hi

yesterday, I tried a 6 x 4' @L5 with 3' of resting interval (L1). According to WKO+, the NP for the whole 40 minutes (resting intervals included) is a little lower than my FTP. Is it correct or should it be a higher than FTP?

I'm no expert but I don't think the NP for the whole session when doing L5 intervals matters or is even really worth looking at. My understanding is what matters is the actual intensity and load during the period of each effort and I reckon that this needs to be 115-120% of an accurate FTP figure.

If this is wrong I'm sorry, I'm sure more knowledgeable others will put both of us right!

Did you enjoy them, that's the main thing!

Cheers,

PBUK

 

[Alex Simmons]

Hi

I'm no expert but I don't think the NP for the whole session when doing L5 intervals matters or is even really worth looking at. My understanding is what matters is the actual intensity and load during the period of each effort and I reckon that this needs to be 115-120% of an accurate FTP figure.

If this is wrong I'm sorry, I'm sure more knowledgeable others will put both of us right!

Did you enjoy them, that's the main thing!

Cheers,

PBUK

NP for a planned workout will give you a good idea as to whether the workout is feasible or not.

 

[Simone@Italy]

Hi
I'm no expert but I don't think the NP for the whole session when doing L5 intervals matters or is even really worth looking at. My understanding is what matters is the actual intensity and load during the period of each effort and I reckon that this needs to be 115-120% of an accurate FTP figure.

to me is not possible -at the moment- to attain that effort level for > 4'! I'm quite happy when the AP for the L5 interval is 110% of the FTP.

Did you enjoy them, that's the main thing!

there's nothing enjoyable in a L5 workout!

 

[frenchyge]

yesterday, I tried a 6 x 4' @L5 with 3' of resting interval (L1). According to WKO+, the NP for the whole 40 minutes (resting intervals included) is a little lower than my FTP. Is it correct or should it be a higher than FTP?

That's pretty close if you're including the last rest period as well.

As Alex mentioned, I typically look at the hardest period of the workout (ie, start of first interval to end of last working period) and compare it to my mean-maximal NP for that duration to see how it compares to what I have successfully produced recently. Then, I may bump the interval power by ~5 watts either way, or tweak the rest durations slightly so that the workout NP (minus the last rest period) is very close to or even 1-2 watts above the max NP I've previously done for that duration. I want it to feel very hard, like I'm pushing the envelope.

Attached is a planning spreadsheet I use to tweak in my interval routines so that they're challenging but I still have confidence that they're not beyond my abilities. Change extension from .doc to .xls to use. (Note: that what the spreadsheet uses as NP is an approximation since there is no 30-sec averaging applied).

 

[Simone@Italy]

That's pretty close if you're including the last rest period as well.

yep, but it doesn't change very much if I don't consider the last rest period.

As Alex mentioned, I typically look at the hardest period of the workout (ie, start of first interval to end of last working period) and compare it to my mean-maximal NP for that duration to see how it compares to what I have successfully produced recently. Then, I may bump the interval power by ~5 watts either way, or tweak the rest durations slightly so that the workout NP (minus the last rest period) is very close to or even 1-2 watts above the max NP I've previously done for that duration. I want it to feel very hard, like I'm pushing the envelope.

The things that worries me the most is the fact that almost everybody here is able to sustain 115-120% of his/her FTP in their L5 workouts, while to me 110% is already hard! And I know that my FTP is not overstimated.

Attached is a planning spreadsheet I use to tweak in my interval routines so that they're challenging but I still have confidence that they're not beyond my abilities. Change extension from .doc to .xls to use. (Note: that what the spreadsheet uses as NP is an approximation since there is no 30-sec averaging applied).

thank you very much, I'll give it a try! ;-)

 

[MintID]

lol. the hospital called me. apparently they didn't examine my xray pictures very well...
I have a crack in my elbow.
that sucks...
riding hurts right now but is possible.
Thanks for all the great info in this thread.

 

[Meek One]

The things that worries me the most is the fact that almost everybody here is able to sustain 115-120% of his/her FTP in their L5 workouts, while to me 110% is already hard! And I know that my FTP is not overstimated.

Don't worry, because if I remember correctly L5 is one of the levels that can grow very quickly at first so you should be able to make great gains in a short period of time and be at the magic 115-120 mark.

 

[robkit]

there is a lot of discussion about how best to derive an accurate FTP from several methods.

i was wondering what is the best way to estimate VO2 max power, besides doing a VO2 max test on an ergometer. i'm thinking when the motivation is not for determination of a smart interval workload but rather to come up with the best estimate for comparing oneself against the power profile (5 min power.)

perhaps the average "on" power over the last 3 of 4 5 min VO2max intervals, or something similar?

 

[Piotr]

The things that worries me the most is the fact that almost everybody here is able to sustain 115-120% of his/her FTP in their L5 workouts, while to me 110% is already hard! And I know that my FTP is not overstimated.

There's no shame in having a high FTP in relation to VO2max power (Now, doesn't that sound mo betta? ). It may mean that you have a TT-ist power profile rather than that of a pursuiter. Those who can consistently sustain 120% FTP (or even more ) for 5 x 5 min should probably work their Sweet Spot a little more or are using a bit more anaerobic capacity than you.

 

[frenchyge]

The things that worries me the most is the fact that almost everybody here is able to sustain 115-120% of his/her FTP in their L5 workouts...

1) I do think one gets better at them after a few tries.

2) You could start a poll, but I'd be surprised if almost everyone here were able to regularly do sets of at least 4min intervals above 115% FTP, assuming at least 5 intervals in the set and a work:rest ratio of 1:1 or higher. I feel really satisfied if I can hold >115% on the last reps of a 6x4 set.

 

[Alex Simmons]

there is a lot of discussion about how best to derive an accurate FTP from several methods.

i was wondering what is the best way to estimate VO2 max power, besides doing a VO2 max test on an ergometer. i'm thinking when the motivation is not for determination of a smart interval workload but rather to come up with the best estimate for comparing oneself against the power profile (5 min power.)

perhaps the average "on" power over the last 3 of 4 5 min VO2max intervals, or something similar?

Well that's hard because there is no one "VO2 Max Power".

Volume of O2 is a measure of oxygen utilisation capacity and VO2 Max is the maximum rate we are capable of. We can attain a VO2 Max state by riding at various powers, there is no one power at which this occurs.

5-min MMP is often chosen as it is a good proxy for the effort level that typically induces a VO2 Max state. But you could readily do so for 3-min or even 8-min but clearly our power/duration curve is not flat through those durations.

 

[flanman]

There's no shame in having a high FTP in relation to VO2max power (Now, doesn't that sound mo betta? ). It may mean that you have a TT-ist power profile rather than that of a pursuiter. Those who can consistently sustain 120% FTP (or even more ) for 5 x 5 min should probably work their Sweet Spot a little more or are using a bit more anaerobic capacity than you.

Yup. My 5 min power is 130% of my ftp. 123% of my 20 min power. That means I need to work that sweet spot/aerobic power a lot more. Also means that it might be worth taking up the pursuit on the track. My sprint is very poor though - I guess that means I don't have much fast-twitch muscle.

 

[Piotr]

Yup. My 5 min power is 130% of my ftp. 123% of my 20 min power. That means I need to work that sweet spot/aerobic power a lot more. Also means that it might be worth taking up the pursuit on the track. My sprint is very poor though - I guess that means I don't have much fast-twitch muscle.

I would guess that in the lower categories you'd be fairly successful in crits by taking a last lap flyer.

 

[flanman]

I would guess that in the lower categories you'd be fairly successful in crits by taking a last lap flyer.

The problem is getting to the last lap in good shape, near the front. CO fields are pretty stacked, no shortage of strong riders in Cat 4 who would do very well in cat 3.

I tried taking a flyer near the beginning of a race last week. Got over 250 yards gap, but overdid it and blew up - bad.

 

[Simone@Italy]

There's no shame in having a high FTP in relation to VO2max power (Now, doesn't that sound mo betta? ). It may mean that you have a TT-ist power profile rather than that of a pursuiter. Those who can consistently sustain 120% FTP (or even more ) for 5 x 5 min should probably work their Sweet Spot a little more or are using a bit more anaerobic capacity than you.

Mmh.. yes, sounds much better now! Thank you
anyway, I know for sure that my anaerobic capacity is very close to zero.. I will train it when (if ever ) I'll start racing