Volume / Sessions per week needed for some success??

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by TTer, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Everybody:

    I think riders are correct when they say they are riding their TT's at the limit and that they are tired at the end. Maybe they are genetically tapped out, who knows??? I dought it.

    Maybe the reason you are not getting any faster or putting out more power is you are not training correctly. It is generally accepted by most sport scientists and coaches that people of "average" genetic talent can become professional riders. Maybe not a top g.c. rider, but a professional nonetheless.

    So, if that's the case, why aren't more riders who train hard and have higher goals accomplishing them??? TT'ing at 25 mph is what Cat 4's do all over the world. Surely, with proper training, these riders would do better. I remember how amazed I was when I first started out. 17/18 year old juniors were ripping off 28 mph TT's without any problem. I'm not talking about one rare case, I'm talking about many juniors riding TT's at 28+ mph. Tons of them ride 23-22 minute 10's and they were in 10-15th place. You know, kids who had been racing maybe 1.5-2 years max. How many of you reading this have been racing more than 2 years and still not TT'ing at 28 mph??? Maybe you need a different program.

    As for the Dangerfield wattage, Ric, since you are an ABCC coach yourself, why don't you have a pow-wow with Senior ABCC Coach Dr. Gordon Wright. He is the man who stated the wattages in the Dangerfield article. Tell him to his face his data is "wrong."

    As for the LeMond issue, he pushed because the TDF was at stake. The extra motivation from that would cause such an additional adrenaline rush, and adrenaline will allow you to recruit additional motor units and produce more power. I think the reason other coaches on this board have a problem with what I'm saying is because they poorly understand how muscles work, don't understand the importance of recruiting as many units as possible, and enhancing the development of efferent (motor) nerves, all of which lead to greater force potential. Greater force potential leads to increased power. This development can only really be done at high intensity and high cadence.

    TT'er, you could illegally ingest some PCP (angel dust), methamphetamine (speed, crank), or prescription amphetamines before your TT. I can guarantee you you would ride your 22 minute 10 that day, if not a lot faster. The drugs would have nothing to do with your VO2 max/heart/threshold etc. The drugs would have you recruit so many more motor units than you ever did in the past. They make you superhuman. Ask any cop who has done felony stops on suspects who were "dusting."

    A normally weak 150 lbs man on PCP can throw 235 lb cops around like rag dolls. It is not uncommon to need 4-8 200+ lb cops to subdue suspects like this. PCP suspects have survived a dozen magnum handgun rounds in the chest suffering severe damage to the myocardium and aortic arch, lost 98% of the blood in their bodies and have needed to be handcuffed to the gurney taking them to the ER. They needed to be handcuffed to prevent them from running away with 12 rounds in their chest and no blood in their body. They almost always survive also.

    Of course, if you were sober and got hit 6 times, let alone 12 times in the chest with a magnum handgun, you would be dead before you hit the ground. So what's the difference??? The mind. More precisely, the "state" of the mind. You guys are overlooking the importance of the mind/determination/etc. After all, the legs only move when the brain tells them to do. If your mind is weak, the signal to your legs will be weak as well. On a given power test, do you think a weaker mind will produce more watts or lesser watts than you are truly capable of???

    Some might laugh at my 30+ watt example. Well, it is very possible, and ask yourself this: Maybe your power test was performed at a lower intensity than you were capable of because you didn't push hard enough. Sure, you sweated and breathed hard. When you hurt, you think you are at your limit, but are you really???

    You guys are putting limits, restrictions, and blinders on, and boxing yourself into "I can't do that because the data says so" mentality. Maybe riders would start setting new records, whether they be personal, regional, world, or otherwise if they didn't place limits on themselves. Your legs turn the pedals not your heart. Proper development of the mind and leg muscles is crucial, and is optimally done at high intensity.

    Always ask yourself if you can push a gear higher or increase your cadence. 30 watts is hard to gain??? Really??? Read the comments by one of our members in the power forum about isolated leg training (ILT). In the short time I have been here and talked about ILT, he says he has increased his power 20 watts in TT's by doing ILT in only a month or two, and he is using a PowerTap to get the data. See, if you don't think you can do more watts, you never will, and you will still suffer at your limits going slowly.

    See, I've already provided real-world evidence of healthy power increases through specific workout examples, yet many "experts" here like to talk about how I don't know anything. Whatever!!! People tend to mock what they don't understand. ILT makes your legs stronger!!! Hey coaches, ask your clients if they would like to quickly add another 20 watts of power!!!

    People who don't place limitations on themselves can achieve much, much, more and will always have an advantage over people riding in their "safe harbors."

    Good luck!!!
     


  2. maarten

    maarten New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    QUOTE J-MAT
    Everybody:

    I think riders are correct when they say they are riding their TT's at the limit and that they are tired at the end. Maybe they are genetically tapped out, who knows??? I dought it.

    Maybe the reason you are not getting any faster or putting out more power is you are not training correctly. It is generally accepted by most sport scientists and coaches that people of "average" genetic talent can become professional riders. Maybe not a top g.c. rider, but a professional nonetheless.

    So, if that's the case, why aren't more riders who train hard and have higher goals accomplishing them??? TT'ing at 25 mph is what Cat 4's do all over the world. Surely, with proper training, these riders would do better. I remember how amazed I was when I first started out. 17/18 year old juniors were ripping off 28 mph TT's without any problem. I'm not talking about one rare case, I'm talking about many juniors riding TT's at 28+ mph. Tons of them ride 23-22 minute 10's and they were in 10-15th place. You know, kids who had been racing maybe 1.5-2 years max. How many of you reading this have been racing more than 2 years and still not TT'ing at 28 mph??? Maybe you need a different program.

    comment:
    Kids and adults(how old are your riders 25? 35? 45?) have different speeds of adapatation, there are agezones, the best ages to train neuromuscular system or develop aerobic capacities and so on and on. Also the body composition of a young adult is different they usally are ligther and smaller build which gives them a weight and aero advantage. On the fact that most could train better I agree, time, knowledge and motivation are often limited by these riders.


    As for the Dangerfield wattage, Ric, since you are an ABCC coach yourself, why don't you have a pow-wow with Senior ABCC Coach Dr. Gordon Wright. He is the man who stated the wattages in the Dangerfield article. Tell him to his face his data is "wrong."

    As for the LeMond issue, he pushed because the TDF was at stake. The extra motivation from that would cause such an additional adrenaline rush, and adrenaline will allow you to recruit additional motor units and produce more power. I think the reason other coaches on this board have a problem with what I'm saying is because they poorly understand how muscles work, don't understand the importance of recruiting as many units as possible, and enhancing the development of efferent (motor) nerves, all of which lead to greater force potential. Greater force potential leads to increased power. This development can only really be done at high intensity and high cadence.

    Comment:
    Lemond was one of the first if not the first road rider to use the Tri-bars to ride TT. Check out the advantages you get from riding with aro bars vs standard bars when properly adapted to riding with them.

    add on Personal attacks on other coaches are low, you don't know the other people and their knowledge/results trying to make a fool off them makes a fool of you and shows your weaknesses in real evidence.


    TT'er, you could illegally ingest some PCP (angel dust), methamphetamine (speed, crank), or prescription amphetamines before your TT. I can guarantee you you would ride your 22 minute 10 that day, if not a lot faster. The drugs would have nothing to do with your VO2 max/heart/threshold etc. The drugs would have you recruit so many more motor units than you ever did in the past. They make you superhuman. Ask any cop who has done felony stops on suspects who were "dusting."

    A normally weak 150 lbs man on PCP can throw 235 lb cops around like rag dolls. It is not uncommon to need 4-8 200+ lb cops to subdue suspects like this. PCP suspects have survived a dozen magnum handgun rounds in the chest suffering severe damage to the myocardium and aortic arch, lost 98% of the blood in their bodies and have needed to be handcuffed to the gurney taking them to the ER. They needed to be handcuffed to prevent them from running away with 12 rounds in their chest and no blood in their body. They almost always survive also.

    Of course, if you were sober and got hit 6 times, let alone 12 times in the chest with a magnum handgun, you would be dead before you hit the ground. So what's the difference??? The mind. More precisely, the "state" of the mind. You guys are overlooking the importance of the mind/determination/etc. After all, the legs only move when the brain tells them to do. If your mind is weak, the signal to your legs will be weak as well. On a given power test, do you think a weaker mind will produce more watts or lesser watts than you are truly capable of???

    Some might laugh at my 30+ watt example. Well, it is very possible, and ask yourself this: Maybe your power test was performed at a lower intensity than you were capable of because you didn't push hard enough. Sure, you sweated and breathed hard. When you hurt, you think you are at your limit, but are you really???

    Comment:
    Your 30 watt example was a laugh honestly. Now you are suggesting bad testing to rectify it thats a poor excuse. When properly tested 30 watt up is huge, you will blow up, have you ever seen someone fading away, meet the man with the hammer? That's what it leads to.
    Don't assume I don't know what real suffering is I've had tunnel vision once at the end of the 1k TT(note 1k TT is a lot different from 10-40k as mentionned before by ric). I Saw many riders collapse at the Track Worlds in antwerp.


    You guys are putting limits, restrictions, and blinders on, and boxing yourself into "I can't do that because the data says so" mentality. Maybe riders would start setting new records, whether they be personal, regional, world, or otherwise if they didn't place limits on themselves. Your legs turn the pedals not your heart. Proper development of the mind and leg muscles is crucial, and is optimally done at high intensity.

    comment:

    Pushing it to hard on training wil make your progress slower, get you overtraind and perform very poor. Pushing too hard in races Will make you blow up and fade away. Your advice earlier on to focus on speed was poor. We call this the recreational rider error, many of them focus on speed and are doing this pushing to hard and limiting there progress.

    Always ask yourself if you can push a gear higher or increase your cadence. 30 watts is hard to gain??? Really??? Read the comments by one of our members in the power forum about isolated leg training (ILT). In the short time I have been here and talked about ILT, he says he has increased his power 20 watts in TT's by doing ILT in only a month or two, and he is using a PowerTap to get the data. See, if you don't think you can do more watts, you never will, and you will still suffer at your limits going slowly.

    See, I've already provided real-world evidence of healthy power increases through specific workout examples, yet many "experts" here like to talk about how I don't know anything. Whatever!!! People tend to mock what they don't understand. ILT makes your legs stronger!!! Hey coaches, ask your clients if they would like to quickly add another 20 watts of power!!!

    comment:
    Sadly Stating X uses this doesn't proove anything.

    People who don't place limitations on themselves can achieve much, much, more and will always have an advantage over people riding in their "safe harbors."

    Good luck!!!

    Personal message:
    I stayed out of this for a certain time as Ric was doing in large amount a good work Stating the errors in your "evidence". Sadly you keep going on so I had to have my say. I didn't comment your earlier posts as in the general line I Agree with the comments Ric made there is no use in me rephrasing them. Of course I am happy that you posted ad we have a discusion going that may open peoples eyes and make them see their errors and so perform better.
     
  3. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    J-Mat,

    Can you provide some actual documentary evidence on this, that PCP (whatever that is) actually saves you if you've been shot 12 times and lost 98% of their blood. To be honest this sounds like the biggest load of BS i've ever heard!! Surely, if this actually worked, PCP would have been used on the battlefield in wars to prevent soldiers dying (when they've been shot). I'm sure it would also have other clinical value for saving people in the ER.

    Granted i'm not a medic, and this is way off my area of knowledge but it does sound like crap. Can you please provide some peer reviewed scientific journal references for this from either Med Line or Pub Med, or a full journal article. Anecdotal evidence won't do.

    As for (even illegally) suggesting that TTer (or anyone) takes amphetamines to increase their ability is rubbish. It's important to point out that Tommy Simpson died in the '67 TdF because of this.

    Amphetamines don't increase your power output, they allow you to go harder than normal because they blunt your feelings of fatigue (fatigue is a mechanism to prevent you killing yourself) and blunt your other senses, such that your perception of where (e.g.) your TTpower is. So you ride above your TTpower inducing more fatiguing and doing yourself damage. This is different to (e.g.) Epo which does increase your power.

    Ric
     
  4. TTer

    TTer New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    0
    J-MAT, this gets more and more ridiculous. You cannot just dig-in. I'm starting to doubt your credibility as you've obviously never raced and pushed the effort harder only to find that you physically had to ease back. You don't have a choice in the matter. It is just physically not possible to pull out a +30W performance boost because you feel like it. Your heart rate would max out trying to supply your muscles with more oxygen, breathing would be very ragged, you would lose form (technique) so you would start to lose the speed. In fact your heart would be working so hard trying to supply the oxygen demands of your body to the point your brain would be starved of oxygen! You would then simply pass out (the brains mechanism for dealing with a lack of oxygen -- get the head lower than the heart by collapsing the person).
     
  5. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've enjoyed reading this thread. Ric's & 2 lap's scientific stuff is really helpful. However, my coach told me to do some 30 second max intervals tonight. As you can see on this thread, that's not the right thing - something a little more restrained and for longer is better. But my coach is ABCC as well, so what do I do? I took the spirit of what J-MAT was saying, because after all, cycling, for all the science, is still a sport, so I did the warm up, an easy spin, the 20 mins at 90%, another recovery, and then the 30 second maximums! Sometimes you've just got to do it!

    When I go for the hour record, I'll want Ric and 2-lap helping me on the way, but on the night I want J-MAT there as well to motivate me to those hidden watts...

    By the way, I'm still buzzing, I'm sitting on the turbo as I type... I can feel some more 30 second max's coming on, and a spot of ILT...
     
  6. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    Just to reiterate, i have *not* said you can't do 30-sec intervals. I said short intervals will bring you to a peak quicker, and that 20ish mins are going to be more beneficial because they specifically target your goals (or rather the original poster of this thread was only interested in 10 and 25 m TTs). Obviously, i'm not sure what your goals are and what your coach is trying to achieve - best answered by asking him or her.

    Assuming that you are trying to inject some humour, with your hour record attempt -- i'm sure that both myself and 2-lap could motivate you on the night, but i doubt you'd want J-Mat there trying to squeeze out another 30 W for you, because you'd either be going way too easy to start with, or you're gonna blow so badly.

    Ric
     
  7. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Everybody:

    Ever so often, someone comes along and defies the conventional "logic of the herd," and is told by the "experts" he is wrong. That would be me.

    Famous cycling "experts" told Graeme Obree he trained wrong when he prepared for the hour, acting as his own coach. Of course, he proved them wrong by being successful, not the first day when he fell short, but the very next morning, after a night of basically no sleep. No meters, no blood lactate testing, nothing. All done on sheer guts and determination. I'm sure most coaches
    would tell you it is impossible to do two hour record attempts back to back with little sleep and be victorious the second day.

    The problem many people have is you dought the power of the human spirit. What do your textbooks and research tell you about that???

    I think many riders would be lost in a race or TT if their power meter quit working half way through. I mean, how could you possibly know how to finish your race without your electronic "ball and chain" telling you what's "correct" ???

    Funny, my 20 watt increase from ILT still holds true whether you like it or not. It's in the power forum, under "images." Check it out and see what others who are using PowerTaps are saying about ILT increasing power. I like results quickly!!!

    If people here have been wrong about ILT, maybe they are wrong about the power of the human spirit as well. I think the human spirit is worth 30 watts, maybe more.

    Maybe you should dump your books and electronics and see what you are truly capable of. If not, feel free to be "governed" by your data. Bow down like humble subjects and repeat: "Data, thou art my master!!!"

    Maybe you dought what I say about the drugs. It's absolutely true. The stories are true as reported by dozens and dozens of police officers when encountering suspects who are "dusting." It gives superhuman strength.

    If you don't believe me, call your local police department, pose as a "university student doing drug research," and ask them for information about dealing with suspects on PCP (phencyclidine).

    You won't find any "peer reviewed" data on PCP because universities usually don't have subjects smoke, snort, or shoot up with illicit drugs and then shoot them in the chest. As a firearms and ballistics expert who has studied the subject for a long time, I'm always amazed at what it takes to stop these people. Sometimes, you have to literally blow their head off with a 12 gauge shotgun to stop them.

    Yes, PCP would save lives in emergency rooms and the battlefield, the only problem is you need it in your system before you have a problem. Kind of like a drunk driver who plows head on into another car. Two cars at 60 mph crashing head first into each other. "Experts" would state it's impossible for anyone to survive a crash like that. The sad thing is, many drunks walk away with minor scratches, while their sober victims die on the spot. Again, it all gets back to state of mind.

    Armies all over the world have experimented with drugs for combat use. The Germans invented methamphetamine to enhance battlefield performance. If you dought what ampehtamines can do for your riding, check out the book "Rough Ride" by former Irish domestique Paul Kimmage. He talks extensively about drug use in cycling and what they can do for performance. They worked wonders for him.

    I don't know anything about racing or have never raced??? Well, I'm certainly not a pro and you won't see me on TV that's for sure. As far as time trialing goes, I used to always TT at 24-25 mph. I realized that the only way to get faster was to start pushing and pushing, and more importantly, raising the expectations I have for myself. NBA basketball legend Michael Jordan said: "You have to expect things from yourself before you can accomplish them." If you don't expect faster TT speeds for yourself, you will never get to the level you want.

    The fact you may currently be several mph off your goal speed means very little. It's far better to currently TT at 22 mph and believe you will do 30 mph in the future, than to TT at 28 mph now and believe further progress is not possible.

    So far, my best for a 10 is a 22:03. Personally, I think 22:03 sucks, I'm nowhere near happy with 27 mph. Anybody can ride that fast. So, I'll keep pushing. British time trialer Roger Iddles is close to 60 years old, and he knocks out 19 minute 10's and 50 minute 25's. Do you think most cycling coaches would say it's possible for a guy in his late 50's to time trial at 30 mph??? Of course they wouldn't. They wouldn't even begin to think something that amazing could be true, yet it is!!! Truth is stranger than fiction!!! Roger, if you happen to be reading this, thanks for leading by example. You are an awesome athlete!!!

    Personal attacks on other coaches??? People on this board drew first blood on me, not the other way around. It all started months ago with strength and ILT. I never picked apart anyone's posts ever, but they dissected mine like a medical student cutting up a cadaver. I didn't join this board to get in pissing contests with other coaches. I assure everyone, I can take ANY punch you can throw and then some!!! Actually, to shut me up, you'd have put a few rounds in my head!!!

    The truth is, I don't harbor any ill will or bad feelings towards anyone here. I wish every coach and rider the best of luck, success, and good health. TTer, I hope you crack that 22 minute ride soon.

    We all have different experiences and know different things. We are lucky we have the time, health, and energy to do what we do. How many people with poor health or terminal diseases wish they could get on a bike and ride at any speed??? If you think about how bad life could really get, we are almost "spoiled" and this stuff gets trivial real fast.

    Sure, some of the things I say might sound outrageous, that's fair, but sometimes in life, it helps to shift gears and look at things in a different light. Sometimes, there are no studies and data to prove a point, especially when it comes to willpower, and determination. I mean, how do you measure fortitude???

    You need have to have faith and believe in yourself!!!

    Never underestimate the power of the human spirit!!!

    Good luck!!!

    p.s.

    Shibumi, listen to your coach. He is on the right track!!! 30 sec. efforts help tremendously with power development, and you know how effective ILT is!!!
     
  8. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    0
    I love doing those thirty second efforts as well particularly up a stonking hill. I'm with Ric here and think that 30 second efforts may have a place in riders plans depending upon goals, etc.

    I don't think that you should doubt your coach too much as they have a lot more knowledge about you and where you are now. There is no harm in asking questions though; a decent coach will give you decent answers.
     
  9. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    My coach is on vacation for 2 MONTHS! All I've got is the plan we worked on before he left. Hence the doubt, and the more frequent postings to the board recently...
     
  10. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    0
    How do you determine if a 20 watt gain is from ILT or another means of training? How do you know that your gains wouldn't have been greater doing the same training with two legs?
     
  11. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stick to his plan and save the questions till he gets back. Out of interest how long are the recoveries between efforts?
     
  12. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    J-Mat,

    Thanks for letting me know what PCP is. I've just completed an initial search on Pub-Med, and there are 3840 papers that relate to PCP (i.e., PCP is a keyword).

    These studies consist of human experimentation, single case studies (associated with dead people in the ER) and animal studies.

    PCP, appears to be some form of psychotic drug, and mimics bipolar disorder. Thus researchers have been using it, to try to find out more about bi-polar disorder and create drugs to prevent bi-polar disorder.

    Due to lack of time, (because, lets face it this is a lot of rubbish, i don't think and i certainly hope no one is going to attempt to take PCP to try to improve cycling performance), i've only been able to review the first 100 abstracts. I can't find anything to support J-Mat's hypothesis to match the anecdotal evidence of police officers.

    One study i found, was that during a nine year period, PCP was detected in 100 hundred deaths, and that of those, 75 typically died from gunshot wounds. This argues against your evidence J-Mat. See Phencyclidine and violent deaths in St. Louis, Missouri: a survey of medical examiners' cases from 1977 through 1986. Poklis A, Graham M, Maginn D, Branch CA, Gantner GE.

    I didn't and don't doubt about some effects of amphetamine use -- i stated they impair your sense and feeling of fatigue, which is the main ergogenic effect.

    Ric
     
  13. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    Originally posted by J-Mat, i respond with >>

    Ever so often, someone comes along and defies the conventional "logic of the herd," and is told by the "experts" he is wrong. That would be me.

    >>LMAO

    Famous cycling "experts" told Graeme Obree he trained wrong when he prepared for the hour, acting as his own coach. Of course, he proved them wrong by being successful, not the first day when he fell short, but the very next morning, after a night of basically no sleep. No meters, no blood lactate testing, nothing. All done on sheer guts and determination. I'm sure most coaches
    would tell you it is impossible to do two hour record attempts back to back with little sleep and be victorious the second day.

    >>I don't think any of the experts said he trained wrong. Which experts have you spoken with J-mat?

    The problem many people have is you dought the power of the human spirit. What do your textbooks and research tell you about that???

    >>there's a wealth of research into sport pyschology. I'm sure that Maarten and 2-Lap have researched into this as i have. certainly part of my degree was directly related to this. I was fortunate enough to have been under the tutelage of two of the UK's leading sport psychologists who work(ed) with national teams.

    Funny, my 20 watt increase from ILT still holds true whether you like it or not. It's in the power forum, under "images." Check it out and see what others who are using PowerTaps are saying about ILT increasing power. I like results quickly!!!

    >> when you can present some proper information on this, as opposed to an n=1, without knowing other factors, it might be better. at present, it doesn't count as anything, how do we know that the 20 W was due to the ILT or the initial effort was maximal?


    If people here have been wrong about ILT, maybe they are wrong about the power of the human spirit as well. I think the human spirit is worth 30 watts, maybe more.

    >>That an impressive bit of logical sideways thinking....! What the hell...?

    Maybe you should dump your books and electronics and see what you are truly capable of. If not, feel free to be "governed" by your data. Bow down like humble subjects and repeat: "Data, thou art my master!!!"

    >>i don't think you have any reading comprehension skills and have failed to understand anything i've written. All along i've said the rider should try to increase the power that they can do.

    I don't know anything about racing or have never raced??? Well, I'm certainly not a pro and you won't see me on TV that's for sure. As far as time trialing goes, I used to always TT at 24-25 mph. I realized that the only way to get faster was to start pushing and pushing, and more importantly, raising the expectations I have for myself. NBA basketball legend Michael Jordan said: "You have to expect things from yourself before you can accomplish them." If you don't expect faster TT speeds for yourself, you will never get to the level you want.

    >>i like SMART goals.


    The fact you may currently be several mph off your goal speed means very little. It's far better to currently TT at 22 mph and believe you will do 30 mph in the future, than to TT at 28 mph now and believe further progress is not possible.

    >>There's nothing wrong with having goals (see above). However, it's important that they are realistic

    So far, my best for a 10 is a 22:03. Personally, I think 22:03 sucks, I'm nowhere near happy with 27 mph. Anybody can ride that fast.

    >>As several of us have been at pains to point out to you, you're right anyone can ride at 27 mph. i find this particularly easy when going downhill. Frequently, i don't even have to pedal

    >>if, on the other hand, you mean on a flat course in standard, temperate conditions (e.g., sea level, 20oC), then, *no* not everyone can ride at that level.

    So, I'll keep pushing. British time trialer Roger Iddles is close to 60 years old, and he knocks out 19 minute 10's and 50 minute 25's. Do you think most cycling coaches would say it's possible for a guy in his late 50's to time trial at 30 mph???

    >>I don't think you have any understanding of either the physics involved and what coaches might or might not understand

    Of course they wouldn't.

    >>where is your evidence for this?

    Personal attacks on other coaches??? People on this board drew first blood on me, not the other way around.

    >>maybe if you wrote credible stuff, then this wouldn't be the case. in general, you hint towards being interested in the scientific research and ideas and then write (in general) absolute tosh.


    It all started months ago with strength and ILT.

    >>see above. but if you insist on trying to be scientific and write rubbish, thats what happens!


    I never picked apart anyone's posts ever, but they dissected mine like a medical student cutting up a cadaver.

    >>would you like to borrow my handkerchief while you have a cry? Or should i phone your mom?!!

    I didn't join this board to get in pissing contests with other coaches. I assure everyone, I can take ANY punch you can throw and then some!!! Actually, to shut me up, you'd have put a few rounds in my head!!!

    >>none of us want to shut you up. you certainly provide some interest and novel ideas. what's annoying is presenting either anecdotal or third hand stories as a scientific truth. this simply isn't the way that science works.

    >>In your posting you mention that there will be no research into PCP: I found stacks of it, you can't even be bothered to do a little scientific digging on your own behalf.

    Sure, some of the things I say might sound outrageous, that's fair, but sometimes in life, it helps to shift gears and look at things in a different light. Sometimes, there are no studies and data to prove a point, especially when it comes to willpower, and determination. I mean, how do you measure fortitude???

    >>see? there's stacks of reasearch on sport psychology.

    Ric
     
  14. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ric:

    Wow!!! I guess you know you have started something when people are gunning for you all the time. This is how people on the top feel. Hey brother, I'm just trying to be cool about things.

    Yeah, I don't know anything do I??? I mean after all, I only said a few things about ILT and a member increased 20 watts.

    Do think he's an idiot and doesn't know what he's talking about??? You act like if you didn't invent it or think of it, it doesn't exist or can't happen.

    Why don't you pass on a tidbit or two to our members (for free) that will increase their power in such an obvious way??? Show us!!!

    Oh, by the way, I'm not crying.

    I'm laughing!!!

    Later!!!
     
  15. TTer

    TTer New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    0
    We're all laughing J-MAT ! This is funny. The stuff about alcohol "saving" people in car crashes so they can walk away unscathed. How does that work exactly? How do they defy the laws of physics and not break bones or suffer serious injury due to compressed metal, broken glass, etc..? If they do avoid serious injury, it can only be through luck!

    By the way, you seem to have a mental block with the spelling of the word 'doubt' (as in dought).

    Keep up the posting J-MAT. What would a typical training week look like for a rider you coach doing TTs? Would it include ILT every week, long intervals, how much rest? I would be interested to hear.
     
  16. Laflore

    Laflore New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2003
    Messages:
    34
    Likes Received:
    0
    J-mat, the enthusiasm is great and all, but when you talk about superhuman feats due to drugs like pcp and alcohol, well that's getting rediculous. People high on PCP may've been observed performing seemingly miraculous feats, but there would surely be medical explanations (as in all 12 rounds missing the heart and major arteries, i.e. "luck"). Same thing for drunks in car accidents (although I have heard that a relaxed state *can* be helpful in some impacts). Oh, and anecdotal police accounts are definitely not (usually) scientific. I personally wouldn't base an argument on them.

    IMO, sports psychology definitely has its place, but you need to be reasonable and realistic. However, nothing beats sound, scientific method when it comes to improving performance.

    Just my opinions.
     
  17. TTer

    TTer New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's my PowerTap data from a 40km time trial at the weekend. It isn't cut exactly (about 1min 30seconds extra), but it gives an idea of the effort/HR/cadence/speed. The course was "sporting" to say the least, so I went over TT power on the hills (to save time) and had to recover somewhat afterwards. The overall power was a little lower than I expected, but probably because I pushed a little too hard on the hills (330W average at times, my 40km TT power is around 260/270W) and paid the price in the middle of the race.

    Any comments are welcome. I'm not sure what you can discern from the file, except I pushed a little too hard in places and suffered later on. Maybe I should have limited any 'harder' efforts on the hills to 300W so I wasn't grovelling at ~220W to recover later.
     
  18. TTer

    TTer New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2003
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's the same data, with smoothing at just 2% (rather than 5%) so you can see the power spikes. I think this shows I overdid it in too many sections and paid the price later.
     
  19. lex

    lex New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    8
    Likes Received:
    0
    This isn't evidence, but 2-lap, ric and others said track riders make lousy TTers. Maybe they do...I don't know, but one of my good buddies (Dave) is also my "psuedo-coach" meaning he gives me tips from time to time. He is a former 500m and 1000m track specialist, that's all he trained since he was a teenager...so that he could make the national team. sure he did longer rides too...track riders do that, but he was focused on max speed for short time. Well, he gave up on that a few years ago and started triathlon. However, 30sec and 60sec intervals are still part of his training as he still does "some" track racing. Well, he just won the Steve Dunlap Memorial 40k Time Trial with a time of 46:26...He SMOKED a bunch of TT specialists who have never set foot on the track! Do any of you or the athletes you coach do a 46:26 40k? Yea, I know what you'll say...sample size not big enough...what works for one doesn't work for all...BUT short hard intervals work for him and I would LOVE to hear you tell the guy at the TOP of the podium that he's training wrong...look, it works for him so why not someone else. I'm just saying that maybe there is more than one way to skin a cat....

    Here is the link to the dunlap results:

    http://www.ncnca.org/road/2003/DunlapTTResults.html

    Here is some links to his Kilo Track times:

    http://web.archive.org/web/19990503075037/www.ncnca.org/track/DistrictTrackR.html

    http://web.archive.org/web/19990209033322/www.ncnca.org/track/1996/KiloPoints.html
     
  20. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    TT'er:

    I'm glad you are laughing. Life's too short!!!

    Oh, and thanks for the spelling correction. Perhaps you would like to do my spellchecking for me. It would help out a lot!!!
     
Loading...
Loading...