Volume / Sessions per week needed for some success??

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by TTer, Jun 16, 2003.

  1. lex

    lex New Member

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    One correction...I don't want it to sound like my track friend with the fast 40k doesn't do longer stuff too. Ric, he does do longer intervals and is concerned about sustained power too and would admit that you need longer intervals in your training program...all the stuff you say...but he would also agree that shorter stuff was good too...I think you need a little of both. By the way, I mentioned this thread to him and he said that track racing helps his time trialing...this is what he said:

    "i think the track can definitely help your time trialing. racing the track forces you to put out a lot of power at a high cadence. if you do enough of that kind of work, your cadence during time trials will rise as well. it also helps broaden your power band, so you can actually go through a range of cadences during a TT and be effective at all of them. this is especially helpful on rolling terrain. the other thing about track racing is that your heart rate will be unbelievably high for parts of the races. it's very difficult to get that quality of a workout on your own, and for that reason alone, it's good to race the track every now and then. for me, when i feel like i'm done with my base training and i need to bust through and start doing the high intensity stuff, i show up at the track for some races and that does the trick."

    I'm not sure what he meant by power band, I'll email him back. He also said this about J-mat vs. Ric:

    "i think the 2 sides of that debate are actually saying the same thing when it really comes down to it. it's all about finding a systematic way to improve your sustained power output. doing stuff like riding 53x14 at a certain cadence for 5, then 10, then 20 minutes is exactly the same as doing a certain fixed number of watts for 5, 10, 20 minutes."

    As far as being inspired to push higher watts, like J-mat said, he thinks its likely and that you'd probably blow up (supports ric)...HOWEVER, he then said that he has also seen a lot of "superhuman" efforts from racers through the years and wouldn't disagree that the mind can do something to the body from time to time...but he said it's probably not something that can be tapped at will...a lot of things need to line up, all systems clicking type of thing. So I think J-mat is right that the mind can push you through things, but you shouldn't count on it...it can indeed happen...but is rare.

    I've heard of guys bumping against mental blocks when doing physical things. Prime example - In 1954 Roger Bannister was vying with the Australian John Landy to try and be the first to break the four-minute barrier. Both had run quite close to the time, but the magic figure still proved to be elusive. For years, the 4-minute mile was considered not merely unreachable but, according to physiologists of the time, dangerous to the health of any athlete who attempted to reach it. Bannister ran a 3:59 and became the first...then the record was broken within two months by Landy, highlighting how the four-minute mile was as much a psychological as physical barrier. Bannister went on to race Landy to decide whom the world’s best miler was - Bannister won but BOTH men ran sub four minutes. By the end of 1957, 16 runners had logged sub-4-minute miles. I know running isn't cycling but I do put "some" merit in psychological barriers to attaining physical goals. Maybe not much, but break throughs are often small and the mind is often the key. I mean within three years of someone finally breaking 4:00, 16 different runners do it...bodies just didn't change, the mental block was no longer there and they new they could do it if they just kept pushing and training hard.
     


  2. lex

    lex New Member

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    PS. Note to all....notice how I'm not bashing anybody, if I disagree with you I'll say it and explain it...but politely like an adult. The undertones during this thread have been uncomfortable and we could all do without them. We're here to learn and hear what other people have to say...I don't give a crap if you spell something right or wrong...who cares!? I guarantee Lance Armstrong, can't spell every word right even with that Plano High School degree...but I'd listen to him, wouldn't you?
     
  3. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

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    Well said Lex.
     
  4. maarten

    maarten New Member

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    I have had a look at it and did some calculations.

    46'26" for 40k means an average of 51,69km/u which is to say Impressive just by the numbers. But as I don't know the course its hard to know road quality, winds, hills or lack of it, maybe altitude difference between start/finish. Also 40k I don't know the course but wrong course measuring happens all the time and as i don't know his competition its hard to make a judgment for sure(assuming standard conditions its certainly a decent speed(for waht's speed worth see earlier)).
    If you have extra info be free to add it.



    On the other hand about the kilo times its easier There are more certainities its 1000m its most likely run on wood or excellent concrete and I know Larry Nolan(and his capabilities more or less) as he lived(or maybe still lives) not so far from me and I raced with him.

    They are ok but they are far from world class. 71,3s and 71,8s

    Vs World record of less then 59 seconds(ok very high altitude) so 60,5-61,5 seconds for a good quality track and sea level for being world champion. This is a then second gap which is huge, maybe you are over estimating the value of these kilo times.

    Again If you can tell us the surface of the track/does it have a roof/altitude please tell this is valuable info to dissect the performance better.

    For what its worth I believe I am myself capble if I focus(and say a couple of months of training) on it to do a 1k TT at the times you specified. I am a decent sprinter In our modest league, but at top level I am far from competitve. Its hard to say(as i can't ask them to test it) But I guess lots of decent (road) pro's should be smashing the 70 sec barrier but almost none will get to 62sec. But xhen talking about 1k seconds are hughe gaps.
     
  5. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    Sorry Lex will try to tame the comments from now on.

    Anyway, rather than saying that track riders make bad TTer's I have tried to make the distinction between track sprinters and track endurance riders. As maarten has pointed out the example you gave the rider seems to be a better endurance rider than 1km rider (in terms of % off the world best) and this demonstrates the point. High intensity intervals only provide the icing on the cake for TTer's and a you have also mentioned the long intensity intervals/tempo are essential. I wonder if the rider could have performed such a good time trial when training exclusivly for the 1KM TT.

    A frend of mine is a BMX rider and track spinter, he often jokes that a 10 mile TT would double his annual milage! I just want to make the distinction between track rider and track sprint/endurance.
     
  6. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    Originally posted by lex
    One correction...I don't want it to sound like my track friend with the fast 40k doesn't do longer stuff too. Ric, he does do longer intervals and is concerned about sustained power too and would admit that you need longer intervals in your training program...all the stuff you say...but he would also agree that shorter stuff was good too...I think you need a little of both. By the way, I mentioned this thread to him and he said that track racing helps his time trialing...this is what he said:

    "i think the track can definitely help your time trialing. racing the track forces you to put out a lot of power at a high cadence. if you do enough of that kind of work, your cadence during time trials will rise as well. it also helps broaden your power band, so you can actually go through a range of cadences during a TT and be effective at all of them. this is especially helpful on rolling terrain. the other thing about track racing is that your heart rate will be unbelievably high for parts of the races. it's very difficult to get that quality of a workout on your own, and for that reason alone, it's good to race the track every now and then. for me, when i feel like i'm done with my base training and i need to bust through and start doing the high intensity stuff, i show up at the track for some races and that does the trick."

    > It sounds like the rider is doing track endurance races; in a 1km TT or 200m race peak HR might not occur until after the event. Any track race the length of a pursuit or longer is likely to have benefits for TT racing, as the limits to a performance are the same as in a TT (i.e. VO2max and LT).

    I'm not sure what he meant by power band, I'll email him back. He also said this about J-mat vs. Ric:

    "i think the 2 sides of that debate are actually saying the same thing when it really comes down to it. it's all about finding a systematic way to improve your sustained power output. doing stuff like riding 53x14 at a certain cadence for 5, then 10, then 20 minutes is exactly the same as doing a certain fixed number of watts for 5, 10, 20 minutes."

    > I agree with your point here completly, cadence will be 'quite' similar to power when a fixed is used. Obviously you cannot use cadence to quantify power and I still use HR to train. The efforts of 5, 10 and 20 minutes based on power, HR or feeling are what we are recomending here, these sesions will increase your LT when riden at LT. J-Mat was suggesting that you do much shorter efforts <60 seconds and we were all pointing out that the benefits of such efforts are very small (for TTers) and not relevant to TTers; given that they won't increase LT, VO2 max in trained people, improve economy or improve oxygen uptake kinetics. These four factors are the limiting factors in endurance exercise exercise at a sustained power output (e.g. TT's, pursuits, marathons). For events where there are changes in pace (e.g. madisons, scratch races, road races,etc.) efforts of <60 seconds will have a greater benefit as these events all involve significant anaerobic components. The systematic way of increasing your average power for a TT will therefore focus primeraly on efforts of 5 to 20 minutes and not efforts of <60 seconds.

    As far as being inspired to push higher watts, like J-mat said, he thinks its likely and that you'd probably blow up (supports ric)...HOWEVER, he then said that he has also seen a lot of "superhuman" efforts from racers through the years and wouldn't disagree that the mind can do something to the body from time to time...but he said it's probably not something that can be tapped at will...a lot of things need to line up, all systems clicking type of thing. So I think J-mat is right that the mind can push you through things, but you shouldn't count on it...it can indeed happen...but is rare.

    > Agreed, in some instances the mind can allow SUPERHUMAN performances and I don't think that this can be called on at will. As a physiologist, I am aware of the things in the body that limit performance and I find it very unlikely that any rider riding at their TT 'limit' can increase the power output by 30 watts just by 'digging in'. By definition that rider was not riding on their 'limit' in the first place.

    >I hope all that made sense.
     
  7. TTer

    TTer New Member

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    There wasn't any feedback on my initial TT PowerTap data postings :-( Anyway, here is another 40km TT I did. I was promised this would a flat course (ooooh, it'll be dead flat and boring out there were the exact words!) and it turned out to be another "sporting" (read: lumpy) course.

    Any comments gratefully received !

    A question for Ric or those who have TT'd with powermeters:

    Is it realistic to try and keep power in a very small range (say 240-290W) on a sporting/lumpy course? Effort on hills, if kept steady and paced is almost always 290-300W, but then on the downhill it's hard to keep above 200W sometimes in top gear. I'm sure these kind of courses affect average power quite a bit as it's hard to keep the power/effort high on the downhill sections (spinning out at 30-34mph a few times on this course). In other words, the average seems quite low (250W) when my TT power in training on flat/turbo is 270W. I guess on a flat course the effort would be much closer to 270W?
     
  8. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    TTer,

    check your private messages!!

    Ric
     
  9. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

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    TT'er:

    Several posts ago, I made mention of how hard it is to keep your heart rate and power output up on a downhill. Anyone can get their heart rate up on a climb. Flats are the next hardest because now you have to push harder instead of letting gravity do the job for you. Maintaining power output on a downhill is the hardest thing to do. It's the hardest way to ride. Most people can't do it very well. You have a leg speed issue, not a power issue.

    You are spun out at 34 mph. Using a typical road setup, in a 53x11 that would only be around 89 rpm. Not a very high cadence. I remember Armand De Las Cuevas in the 1994 Giro. In a TT of about 50 kilometers there was plenty of rolling terrain. He spun like a madman on the downhills. I timed his legspeed, and at times it was over 150 rpm. That's spun out.

    Try doing some legspeed intervals on your trainer. Work up to a few sets of 5 minutes at 120+ rpm seated. After a while, you will not bounce or rock in the saddle and be very smooth. If you could do this, the downhills you encounter won't give you any trouble. You will probably be spinning your 11 cog at 95-100+ rpm on the downhills which would put you somewhere around 38 mph. If you rode a lumpy 10, pedalling on the downhills could be worth 20-30+ seconds. If you are not pedalling on downhills, you are wasting precious time. Fast riders pedal hard all the way down hills.

    When training hard on the road always pedal on the downhills. Try to increase your cadence 20-30+ rpm in the same gear when you hit a downhill and try to hold your flat cadence if possible on the uphill side. Shift to an easier gear on the uphill if necessary. It doesn't feel very good to ride like this, everyone likes a break when they are working hard, but if you don't do this in training, you won't do it in time trials. The body does what you train it to do.

    Good luck!!!
     
  10. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

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    TTer,

    Can you post the traces and comments in another thread as I'm really interested in this?

    2LAP
     
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