Vuelta cancelled ?

[Callistus Valer]

With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold the
Vuelta this year. And maybe some route changes in the TDF,
in order to avoid the war zones in the south.

 

[Psycholist]

"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
> possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold
> the Vuelta this year. And maybe some
route
> changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
> the south.
>

Sadly, you might be right.

Bob C.

 

[A.Lee]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:

> With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
> possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold
> the Vuelta this year. And maybe some route changes in the
> TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in the south.

Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading about
the Basque terrorists before you post here again, and
borrowing from a well known

you). Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North
Midlands.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus
> Valerius wrote:
>
> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
> > possibility of
roadside
> > bombs, I doubt if they will hold the Vuelta this year.
> > And maybe some
route
> > changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
> > the south.
>
> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading about
> the Basque terrorists before you post here again, and
> borrowing from a well known

> you). Alan.

Alan, It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
work of ETA. You might want to look at http://www.guardian.-
co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1167328,00.html

http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/j-
tic/jtic040311_1_n.shtml

However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause some
rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three major
tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour. One car
bomb would do the trick quite nicely and I have a
recollection that there are thousands of cars parked along
the routes of the tours.

 

[A.Lee]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:04:19 +0000, B. Lafferty wrote:
> "A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus
>> Valerius wrote:
>> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,

>> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading about
>> the Basque terrorists before you post here again,.

> It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
> work of ETA. You might want to look at
Snip links.

It would suit many, especially the USA President if it wasnt
ETA, but it most certainly is.The OP said the "Civil War on
the horizon".That is just plain stupid.Even in Basque
Country, ETA do not have great support for their terrorist
activities, and being as the Basque Country is a hotbed of
cycling, a threat to any cycle tour is extremly remote.
There are a number of European Cup football(soccer) games
going ahead in Spain tonight,with crowds of 70,000, despite
the carnage of today - if there was any plausible threat,
these would be cancelled.To even talk of cancellation of a
tour over 6 months away is just daft.

>However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause some
>rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three major
>tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.

Of course they have to take terror threats seriously, but
talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going off in
central Madrid is very premature.If this was one of many
bombs, with sporting events included as targets, then there
may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting events are
rarely targetted by any terrorists, and AFAIK, are almost
unheard of in Western Europe.(72 olympics of course) Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North
Midlands.

 

[Chris]

"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:04:19 +0000, B. Lafferty wrote:
> > "A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius
> >> wrote:
> >> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,
>
> >> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading
> >> about the Basque terrorists before you post here
> >> again,.
>
> > It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
> > work of ETA. You might want to look at
> Snip links.
>
> It would suit many, especially the USA President if it
> wasnt ETA, but it most certainly is.The OP said the
> "Civil War on the horizon".That is just plain stupid.Even
> in Basque Country, ETA do not have great support for
> their terrorist activities, and being as the Basque
> Country is a hotbed of cycling, a threat to any cycle
> tour is extremly remote. There are a number of European
> Cup football(soccer) games going ahead in Spain
> tonight,with crowds of 70,000, despite the carnage of
> today - if there was any plausible threat, these would be
> cancelled.To even talk of cancellation of a tour over 6
> months away is just daft.

Furthermore, there was an incident in the early 90s
when some cars were bombed while at the race, and it
still went on.

> >However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause
> >some rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three
> >major tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.
>
> Of course they have to take terror threats seriously, but
> talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going off in
> central Madrid is very premature.If this was one of many
> bombs, with sporting events included as targets, then
> there may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting events
> are rarely targetted by any terrorists, and AFAIK, are
> almost unheard of in Western Europe.(72 olympics of
> course) Alan.
>
> --
> To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
> http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North
> Midlands.

 

[B. Lafferty]

"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:04:19 +0000, B. Lafferty wrote:
> > "A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius
> >> wrote:
> >> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,
>
> >> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading
> >> about the Basque terrorists before you post here
> >> again,.
>
> > It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
> > work of ETA. You might want to look at
> Snip links.
>
> It would suit many, especially the USA President if it
> wasnt ETA, but it most certainly is.The OP said the
> "Civil War on the horizon".That is just plain stupid.Even
> in Basque Country, ETA do not have great support for
> their terrorist activities, and being as the Basque
> Country is a hotbed of cycling, a threat to any cycle
> tour is extremly remote. There are a number of European
> Cup football(soccer) games going ahead in Spain
> tonight,with crowds of 70,000, despite the carnage of
> today - if there was any plausible threat, these would be
> cancelled.To even talk of cancellation of a tour over 6
> months away is just daft.

I agree that a new Spainish Civil War is hyperbole. Sadly,
security can't stop determined bombers in all cases
involving public events of any kind.

>
> >However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause
> >some rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three
> >major tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.
>
> Of course they have to take terror threats seriously,
> but talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going
> off in central Madrid is very premature.If this was one
> of many bombs, with sporting events included as targets,
> then there may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting
> events are rarely targetted by any terrorists, and
> AFAIK, are almost unheard of in Western Europe.(72
> olympics of course)

I do recal that Phil L. and Paul S's car was blown up
between stages of the Vuelta (I think). Terrorist tactics
have changed markedly since 1972. If anything, I would
expect terror attacks on soft targets like sporting events
to increase/commence, particularly those in which there is
no confined area to secure, like a stadium. I do hope I'm
wrong. Here's hoping.

 

[John Forrest To]

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,

"Civil war"? It's not clear who was responsible for the
bombings yet...at least not to me. Do you know who set
the bombs?

JT

 

[DiabloScott]

Originally posted by John Forrest To
On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,

"Civil war"? It's not clear who was responsible for the
bombings yet...at least not to me. Do you know who set
the bombs?

JT

Most likely ETA but far from certain, and civil war would make no sense at all.

This links to NY Times (free registration required):
http://tinyurl.com/2wjdg

Excerpt:

There was no advance warning of the attacks. At first, the Spanish authorities blamed E.T.A., the Basque group that has been seeking independence from Spain for more than three decades.

Later today, however, the Interior Ministry said the police had found a van with detonators and an Arabic-language tape of Koranic verses, according to news agencies, and that it was considering all lines of investigation.

 

[Callistus Valer]

"> "Civil war"? It's not clear who was responsible for
the bombings
> yet...at least not to me. Do you know who set the bombs?

looking more like Al-qaeda.

 

[Pippen]

"Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
> possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold
> the Vuelta this year. And maybe some
route
> changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
> the south.
>
>

Yeah, I hear they are also canceling Easter, Christmas and
my Birthday...

-p

 

[Steven L. Sheff]

On 03/11/2004 01:39 PM, in article
r844c.15661$%[email protected], "B. Lafferty"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I do recal that Phil L. and Paul S's car was blown up
> between stages of the Vuelta (I think). Terrorist tactics
> have changed markedly since 1972. If anything, I would
> expect terror attacks on soft targets like sporting events
> to increase/commence, particularly those in which there is
> no confined area to secure, like a stadium. I do hope I'm
> wrong. Here's hoping.

Just before the start of the 1992 Tour de France, which
started in San Sebastien ...

--
Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <TK24c.15539$%[email protected]>,
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius
> > wrote:
> >
> > > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
> > > possibility of
> roadside
> > > bombs, I doubt if they will hold the Vuelta this year.
> > > And maybe some
> route
> > > changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
> > > the south.
> >
> > Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading
> > about the Basque terrorists before you post here again,
> > and borrowing from a well known

> > you). Alan.
>
> Alan, It's not certain at this time that the bombs were
> the work of ETA. You might want to look at http://www.gua-
> rdian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1167328,00.html
>
> http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news-
> /jtic/jtic040311_1_n. shtml

It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
as they've never mounted an operation that has caused
this kind of damage (in terms of casualties and
property). Which is certainly not to downplay the stuff
they have done. The multiple simultaneous explosions are
much more the standard of the Islamist terrorists, but
who's to say that others haven't adopted that MO for
their own? The group that seems to be claiming the
attacks, Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, is -purported- to
have some links to al Qaeda. That a group like that
might attack Spain isn't such a stretch - Spain was one
of the three countries who were most vigorous in pushing
the war in Iraq.

Another bit of commentary that is worth checking:
<http://billmon.org/archives/001201.html>

>
> However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause
> some rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three
> major tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.
> One car bomb would do the trick quite nicely and I have a
> recollection that there are thousands of cars parked along
> the routes of the tours.

It's hard to say how the Spanish will react - in
America, there has been a low level of terror attacks
for some years. But Europe has seen that kind of stuff
in much greater amounts for far longer, and they may
simply shrug it off.

The "Spanish civil war" is just more delirium from the
so-called mind of Calista Flockhart.

--
tanx, Howard

Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
anything with a skull on it.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Peter Allen]

"A.Lee" <alan@darkroom.+.com> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Of course they have to take terror threats seriously,
> but talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going
> off in central Madrid is very premature.If this was one
> of many bombs, with sporting events included as targets,
> then there may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting
> events are rarely targetted by any terrorists, and
> AFAIK, are almost unheard of in Western Europe.(72
> olympics of course)

Sporting events are usually very carefully protected,
because they make a good terrorist target. According to the
BBC news channel, there was an attempt to get a bomb into a
football stadium by ETA fairly recently, too.

Peter

 

[Otto]

Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article
> <TK24c.15539$%[email protected]>,
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

> It's hard to say how the Spanish will react - in
> America, there has been a low level of terror attacks
> for some years. But Europe has seen that kind of stuff
> in much greater amounts for far longer, and they may
> simply shrug it off.
>
> The "Spanish civil war" is just more delirium from the
> so-called mind of Calista Flockhart.
>

I'd say that it's pretty easy to predict how aznar and PP
will react. thay've been hysterical about basque nationalism
for years: from shutting down baaque language newspapers, to
closing down basque language schools, to neo-mccarthyism's,
like calling anyone who questions their draconian crackdowns
on anything that hints of basque nationalism, terrorists.

if it was ETA, then they've done something very stupid.
what surprises me (and makes me doubt it was them,
regardless of the hysterics of the PP) mostly is the scale
- they've been a kind of mickey mouse outfit ever since the
cease fire ended, and all of the idealogues and brains left
the organization. they've been more mafia than sepratists
since then.

OK, that's my 2¢ worth.

 

[Curtis L . Russ]

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck
<[email protected]> wrote:

>It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation, as
>they've never mounted an operation that has caused this
>kind of damage (in terms of casualties and property).

OTOH, they have made a big deal about having captured a good
part of the leadership recently. Maybe the period after
removing the relative mature from a terrorist group is a
dangerous period where all bets may be off.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (otto) wrote:

> Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<YOURhoward-
> [email protected]>...
> > In article <TK24c.15539$%[email protected]
> > rthlink.net>, "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > It's hard to say how the Spanish will react - in
> > America, there has been a low level of terror attacks
> > for some years. But Europe has seen that kind of
> > stuff in much greater amounts for far longer, and
> > they may simply shrug it off.
> >
> > The "Spanish civil war" is just more delirium from
> > the so-called mind of Calista Flockhart.
> >
>
> I'd say that it's pretty easy to predict how aznar and PP
> will react. thay've been hysterical about basque
> nationalism for years: from shutting down baaque language
> newspapers, to closing down basque language schools, to
> neo-mccarthyism's, like calling anyone who questions their
> draconian crackdowns on anything that hints of basque
> nationalism, terrorists.
>
> if it was ETA, then they've done something very stupid.
> what surprises me (and makes me doubt it was them,
> regardless of the hysterics of the PP) mostly is the scale
> - they've been a kind of mickey mouse outfit ever since
> the cease fire ended, and all of the idealogues and brains
> left the organization. they've been more mafia than
> sepratists since then.
>
> OK, that's my 2¢ worth.

This seems pretty accurate to me. ETA's MO has been
pretty different, too. Generally, they've called the
govt. and said that they were going to blow something up,
the govt. clears the area and the bomb goes off. Minimal
loss of lives.

--
tanx, Howard

Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
anything with a skull on it.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-
> SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>
> >It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
> >as they've never mounted an operation that has caused
> >this kind of damage (in terms of casualties and
> >property).
>
> OTOH, they have made a big deal about having captured a
> good part of the leadership recently. Maybe the period
> after removing the relative mature from a terrorist group
> is a dangerous period where all bets may be off.
>
> Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two
> wheels...

I'd agree with this, too. Plus the fact that the Spanish
govt. has banned the political parties that have been pro-
separatism and arrested many of the leaders of those
parties, regardless of their ties or non-ties to ETA may
have made ETA or people like them more willing to do
something spectacular.

--
tanx, Howard

Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
anything with a skull on it.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Dan Gregory]

"Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-
> > SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
> >
> > >It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
> > >as they've
never
> > >mounted an operation that has caused this kind of
> > >damage (in terms of casualties and property).
Interesting now that they have arrested Moroccans and
Indians (a mobile phone which failed to detonate one of the
bombs had contact numbers on the SIM card). Will Aznar and
his right wing anti Batasuna clique lose the election?? Agur
Dan Gregory

---
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[Richard Adams]

Dan Gregory wrote:

> "Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in
> message news:YOURhoward-
> [email protected]...
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck <YOURhoward@h-
>>>SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
>>>>as they've
>
> never
>
>>>>mounted an operation that has caused this kind of damage
>>>>(in terms of casualties and property).
>
> Interesting now that they have arrested Moroccans and
> Indians (a mobile phone which failed to detonate one of
> the bombs had contact numbers on the SIM card). Will Aznar
> and his right wing anti Batasuna clique lose the
> election??

Fat chance. Aznar is extremely popular and quick results
(rounding up 5 suspects) is a sign they get things done.

ETA, if they have any brains at all, would take this past
week as a hint that they've got nothing to accomplish and
everything to lose if they do another bombing. Time for them
to see the writing on the wall and pursue peaceful means.