Vuelta cancelled ?

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Callistus Valer, Mar 11, 2004.

  1. With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
    possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold the
    Vuelta this year. And maybe some route changes in the TDF,
    in order to avoid the war zones in the south.
     
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  2. Psycholist

    Psycholist Guest

    "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
    > possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold
    > the Vuelta this year. And maybe some
    route
    > changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
    > the south.
    >

    Sadly, you might be right.

    Bob C.
     
  3. A.Lee

    A.Lee Guest

    On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius wrote:

    > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
    > possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold
    > the Vuelta this year. And maybe some route changes in the
    > TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in the south.

    Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading about
    the Basque terrorists before you post here again, and
    borrowing from a well known

    you). Alan.
    --
    To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
    http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North
    Midlands.
     
  4. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus
    > Valerius wrote:
    >
    > > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
    > > possibility of
    roadside
    > > bombs, I doubt if they will hold the Vuelta this year.
    > > And maybe some
    route
    > > changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
    > > the south.
    >
    > Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading about
    > the Basque terrorists before you post here again, and
    > borrowing from a well known

    > you). Alan.

    Alan, It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
    work of ETA. You might want to look at http://www.guardian.-
    co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1167328,00.html

    http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news/j-
    tic/jtic040311_1_n.shtml

    However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause some
    rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three major
    tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour. One car
    bomb would do the trick quite nicely and I have a
    recollection that there are thousands of cars parked along
    the routes of the tours.
     
  5. A.Lee

    A.Lee Guest

    On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:04:19 +0000, B. Lafferty wrote:
    > "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus
    >> Valerius wrote:
    >> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,

    >> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading about
    >> the Basque terrorists before you post here again,.

    > It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
    > work of ETA. You might want to look at
    Snip links.

    It would suit many, especially the USA President if it wasnt
    ETA, but it most certainly is.The OP said the "Civil War on
    the horizon".That is just plain stupid.Even in Basque
    Country, ETA do not have great support for their terrorist
    activities, and being as the Basque Country is a hotbed of
    cycling, a threat to any cycle tour is extremly remote.
    There are a number of European Cup football(soccer) games
    going ahead in Spain tonight,with crowds of 70,000, despite
    the carnage of today - if there was any plausible threat,
    these would be cancelled.To even talk of cancellation of a
    tour over 6 months away is just daft.

    >However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause some
    >rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three major
    >tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.

    Of course they have to take terror threats seriously, but
    talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going off in
    central Madrid is very premature.If this was one of many
    bombs, with sporting events included as targets, then there
    may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting events are
    rarely targetted by any terrorists, and AFAIK, are almost
    unheard of in Western Europe.(72 olympics of course) Alan.

    --
    To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
    http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North
    Midlands.
     
  6. Chris

    Chris Guest

    "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:04:19 +0000, B. Lafferty wrote:
    > > "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius
    > >> wrote:
    > >> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,
    >
    > >> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading
    > >> about the Basque terrorists before you post here
    > >> again,.
    >
    > > It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
    > > work of ETA. You might want to look at
    > Snip links.
    >
    > It would suit many, especially the USA President if it
    > wasnt ETA, but it most certainly is.The OP said the
    > "Civil War on the horizon".That is just plain stupid.Even
    > in Basque Country, ETA do not have great support for
    > their terrorist activities, and being as the Basque
    > Country is a hotbed of cycling, a threat to any cycle
    > tour is extremly remote. There are a number of European
    > Cup football(soccer) games going ahead in Spain
    > tonight,with crowds of 70,000, despite the carnage of
    > today - if there was any plausible threat, these would be
    > cancelled.To even talk of cancellation of a tour over 6
    > months away is just daft.

    Furthermore, there was an incident in the early 90s
    when some cars were bombed while at the race, and it
    still went on.

    > >However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause
    > >some rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three
    > >major tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.
    >
    > Of course they have to take terror threats seriously, but
    > talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going off in
    > central Madrid is very premature.If this was one of many
    > bombs, with sporting events included as targets, then
    > there may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting events
    > are rarely targetted by any terrorists, and AFAIK, are
    > almost unheard of in Western Europe.(72 olympics of
    > course) Alan.
    >
    > --
    > To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
    > http://www.dvatc.co.uk - Off-road cycling in the North
    > Midlands.
     
  7. B. Lafferty

    B. Lafferty Guest

    "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 19:04:19 +0000, B. Lafferty wrote:
    > > "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]...
    > >> On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius
    > >> wrote:
    > >> > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,
    >
    > >> Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading
    > >> about the Basque terrorists before you post here
    > >> again,.
    >
    > > It's not certain at this time that the bombs were the
    > > work of ETA. You might want to look at
    > Snip links.
    >
    > It would suit many, especially the USA President if it
    > wasnt ETA, but it most certainly is.The OP said the
    > "Civil War on the horizon".That is just plain stupid.Even
    > in Basque Country, ETA do not have great support for
    > their terrorist activities, and being as the Basque
    > Country is a hotbed of cycling, a threat to any cycle
    > tour is extremly remote. There are a number of European
    > Cup football(soccer) games going ahead in Spain
    > tonight,with crowds of 70,000, despite the carnage of
    > today - if there was any plausible threat, these would be
    > cancelled.To even talk of cancellation of a tour over 6
    > months away is just daft.

    I agree that a new Spainish Civil War is hyperbole. Sadly,
    security can't stop determined bombers in all cases
    involving public events of any kind.

    >
    > >However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause
    > >some rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three
    > >major tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.
    >
    > Of course they have to take terror threats seriously,
    > but talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going
    > off in central Madrid is very premature.If this was one
    > of many bombs, with sporting events included as targets,
    > then there may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting
    > events are rarely targetted by any terrorists, and
    > AFAIK, are almost unheard of in Western Europe.(72
    > olympics of course)

    I do recal that Phil L. and Paul S's car was blown up
    between stages of the Vuelta (I think). Terrorist tactics
    have changed markedly since 1972. If anything, I would
    expect terror attacks on soft targets like sporting events
    to increase/commence, particularly those in which there is
    no confined area to secure, like a stadium. I do hope I'm
    wrong. Here's hoping.
     
  8. On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 GMT, "Callistus Valerius"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >With a Spanish civil war on the horizon,

    "Civil war"? It's not clear who was responsible for the
    bombings yet...at least not to me. Do you know who set
    the bombs?

    JT
     
  9. DiabloScott

    DiabloScott New Member

    Joined:
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    Most likely ETA but far from certain, and civil war would make no sense at all.

    This links to NY Times (free registration required):
    http://tinyurl.com/2wjdg

    Excerpt:

    There was no advance warning of the attacks. At first, the Spanish authorities blamed E.T.A., the Basque group that has been seeking independence from Spain for more than three decades.

    Later today, however, the Interior Ministry said the police had found a van with detonators and an Arabic-language tape of Koranic verses, according to news agencies, and that it was considering all lines of investigation.
     
  10. "> "Civil war"? It's not clear who was responsible for
    the bombings
    > yet...at least not to me. Do you know who set the bombs?

    looking more like Al-qaeda.
     
  11. Pippen

    Pippen Guest

    "Callistus Valerius" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
    > possibility of roadside bombs, I doubt if they will hold
    > the Vuelta this year. And maybe some
    route
    > changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
    > the south.
    >
    >

    Yeah, I hear they are also canceling Easter, Christmas and
    my Birthday...

    -p
     
  12. On 03/11/2004 01:39 PM, in article
    r844c.15661$%06.11325[email protected], "B. Lafferty"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    > I do recal that Phil L. and Paul S's car was blown up
    > between stages of the Vuelta (I think). Terrorist tactics
    > have changed markedly since 1972. If anything, I would
    > expect terror attacks on soft targets like sporting events
    > to increase/commence, particularly those in which there is
    > no confined area to secure, like a stadium. I do hope I'm
    > wrong. Here's hoping.

    Just before the start of the 1992 Tour de France, which
    started in San Sebastien ...

    --
    Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks
    at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum pax est libertas
    servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee
    sea aye tee why you ti ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for
    word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-
    ewe dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash
     
  13. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <TK24c.15539$%[email protected]>,
    "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:44:28 +0000, Callistus Valerius
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > > With a Spanish civil war on the horizon, and with
    > > > possibility of
    > roadside
    > > > bombs, I doubt if they will hold the Vuelta this year.
    > > > And maybe some
    > route
    > > > changes in the TDF, in order to avoid the war zones in
    > > > the south.
    > >
    > > Thats a pretty pathetic troll,do a bit more reading
    > > about the Basque terrorists before you post here again,
    > > and borrowing from a well known

    > > you). Alan.
    >
    > Alan, It's not certain at this time that the bombs were
    > the work of ETA. You might want to look at http://www.gua-
    > rdian.co.uk/spain/article/0,2763,1167328,00.html
    >
    > http://www.janes.com/security/international_security/news-
    > /jtic/jtic040311_1_n. shtml

    It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
    as they've never mounted an operation that has caused
    this kind of damage (in terms of casualties and
    property). Which is certainly not to downplay the stuff
    they have done. The multiple simultaneous explosions are
    much more the standard of the Islamist terrorists, but
    who's to say that others haven't adopted that MO for
    their own? The group that seems to be claiming the
    attacks, Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, is -purported- to
    have some links to al Qaeda. That a group like that
    might attack Spain isn't such a stretch - Spain was one
    of the three countries who were most vigorous in pushing
    the war in Iraq.

    Another bit of commentary that is worth checking:
    <http://billmon.org/archives/001201.html>

    >
    > However, no matter who is responsible, this will cause
    > some rather sleepless nights for organizers of all three
    > major tours. You don't need 10 or so bombs to end a tour.
    > One car bomb would do the trick quite nicely and I have a
    > recollection that there are thousands of cars parked along
    > the routes of the tours.

    It's hard to say how the Spanish will react - in
    America, there has been a low level of terror attacks
    for some years. But Europe has seen that kind of stuff
    in much greater amounts for far longer, and they may
    simply shrug it off.

    The "Spanish civil war" is just more delirium from the
    so-called mind of Calista Flockhart.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
    R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
    anything with a skull on it.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  14. Peter Allen

    Peter Allen Guest

    "A.Lee" <[email protected]+.com> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Of course they have to take terror threats seriously,
    > but talk of tour cancellation, because of 4 bombs going
    > off in central Madrid is very premature.If this was one
    > of many bombs, with sporting events included as targets,
    > then there may be cause for extreme caution,but sporting
    > events are rarely targetted by any terrorists, and
    > AFAIK, are almost unheard of in Western Europe.(72
    > olympics of course)

    Sporting events are usually very carefully protected,
    because they make a good terrorist target. According to the
    BBC news channel, there was an attempt to get a bomb into a
    football stadium by ETA fairly recently, too.

    Peter
     
  15. Otto

    Otto Guest

    Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article
    > <TK24c.15539$%[email protected]>,
    > "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > It's hard to say how the Spanish will react - in
    > America, there has been a low level of terror attacks
    > for some years. But Europe has seen that kind of stuff
    > in much greater amounts for far longer, and they may
    > simply shrug it off.
    >
    > The "Spanish civil war" is just more delirium from the
    > so-called mind of Calista Flockhart.
    >

    I'd say that it's pretty easy to predict how aznar and PP
    will react. thay've been hysterical about basque nationalism
    for years: from shutting down baaque language newspapers, to
    closing down basque language schools, to neo-mccarthyism's,
    like calling anyone who questions their draconian crackdowns
    on anything that hints of basque nationalism, terrorists.

    if it was ETA, then they've done something very stupid.
    what surprises me (and makes me doubt it was them,
    regardless of the hysterics of the PP) mostly is the scale
    - they've been a kind of mickey mouse outfit ever since the
    cease fire ended, and all of the idealogues and brains left
    the organization. they've been more mafia than sepratists
    since then.

    OK, that's my 2¢ worth.
     
  16. On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation, as
    >they've never mounted an operation that has caused this
    >kind of damage (in terms of casualties and property).

    OTOH, they have made a big deal about having captured a good
    part of the leadership recently. Maybe the period after
    removing the relative mature from a terrorist group is a
    dangerous period where all bets may be off.

    Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
    two wheels...
     
  17. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected] (otto) wrote:

    > Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<YOURhoward-
    > [email protected]>...
    > > In article <TK24c.15539$%[email protected]
    > > rthlink.net>, "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > It's hard to say how the Spanish will react - in
    > > America, there has been a low level of terror attacks
    > > for some years. But Europe has seen that kind of
    > > stuff in much greater amounts for far longer, and
    > > they may simply shrug it off.
    > >
    > > The "Spanish civil war" is just more delirium from
    > > the so-called mind of Calista Flockhart.
    > >
    >
    > I'd say that it's pretty easy to predict how aznar and PP
    > will react. thay've been hysterical about basque
    > nationalism for years: from shutting down baaque language
    > newspapers, to closing down basque language schools, to
    > neo-mccarthyism's, like calling anyone who questions their
    > draconian crackdowns on anything that hints of basque
    > nationalism, terrorists.
    >
    > if it was ETA, then they've done something very stupid.
    > what surprises me (and makes me doubt it was them,
    > regardless of the hysterics of the PP) mostly is the scale
    > - they've been a kind of mickey mouse outfit ever since
    > the cease fire ended, and all of the idealogues and brains
    > left the organization. they've been more mafia than
    > sepratists since then.
    >
    > OK, that's my 2¢ worth.

    This seems pretty accurate to me. ETA's MO has been
    pretty different, too. Generally, they've called the
    govt. and said that they were going to blow something up,
    the govt. clears the area and the bomb goes off. Minimal
    loss of lives.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
    R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
    anything with a skull on it.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  18. Howard Kveck

    Howard Kveck Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:

    > On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck <[email protected]
    > SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
    >
    > >It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
    > >as they've never mounted an operation that has caused
    > >this kind of damage (in terms of casualties and
    > >property).
    >
    > OTOH, they have made a big deal about having captured a
    > good part of the leadership recently. Maybe the period
    > after removing the relative mature from a terrorist group
    > is a dangerous period where all bets may be off.
    >
    > Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two
    > wheels...

    I'd agree with this, too. Plus the fact that the Spanish
    govt. has banned the political parties that have been pro-
    separatism and arrested many of the leaders of those
    parties, regardless of their ties or non-ties to ETA may
    have made ETA or people like them more willing to do
    something spectacular.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    Q: Why did the metalhead cross the road?
    R: Because he's a gullible moron who'll buy
    anything with a skull on it.

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
     
  19. Dan Gregory

    Dan Gregory Guest

    "Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck <[email protected]
    > > SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
    > >
    > > >It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
    > > >as they've
    never
    > > >mounted an operation that has caused this kind of
    > > >damage (in terms of casualties and property).
    Interesting now that they have arrested Moroccans and
    Indians (a mobile phone which failed to detonate one of the
    bombs had contact numbers on the SIM card). Will Aznar and
    his right wing anti Batasuna clique lose the election?? Agur
    Dan Gregory

    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-
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  20. Dan Gregory wrote:

    > "Howard Kveck" <[email protected]> wrote in
    > message news:YOURhoward-
    > [email protected]
    >
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> Curtis L. Russell <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 07:45:56 GMT, Howard Kveck <[email protected]
    >>>SHOESbomb.com> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>It seems pretty unlikely to have been an ETA operation,
    >>>>as they've
    >
    > never
    >
    >>>>mounted an operation that has caused this kind of damage
    >>>>(in terms of casualties and property).
    >
    > Interesting now that they have arrested Moroccans and
    > Indians (a mobile phone which failed to detonate one of
    > the bombs had contact numbers on the SIM card). Will Aznar
    > and his right wing anti Batasuna clique lose the
    > election??

    Fat chance. Aznar is extremely popular and quick results
    (rounding up 5 suspects) is a sign they get things done.

    ETA, if they have any brains at all, would take this past
    week as a hint that they've got nothing to accomplish and
    everything to lose if they do another bombing. Time for them
    to see the writing on the wall and pursue peaceful means.
     
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