WADA admits testing is useless.
- Thread starter Gregers
- Start date
Evidence!! This is what you had to say:-'HGH helps you stay lean not much more.' That is just undeniably, plain wrong. Which you then followed up with some scarcely comprehensible, non sequitur about vitamins and supplements. Then, after a dumb and pointless jibe about drug dealing, you profess a desire to learn. It's hardly rational to pronounce on a subject before you've done a little learning first. Silly Snood. So far, you have not managed to garner a single post in support of your foolish claim that HGH is a diet aid.
Funnily enough, Professor Arne Lundquist (THE doyen of drug testing) has only today stated that it is vital to develop a test for HGH. I think we can take it as read that he wasn't too concerned about it being abused in search of a little weight loss.
Funnily enough, Professor Arne Lundquist (THE doyen of drug testing) has only today stated that it is vital to develop a test for HGH. I think we can take it as read that he wasn't too concerned about it being abused in search of a little weight loss.
What on earth are you babbling about now. Antidopers have zero tolerance! You really are a very silly Snood. That is the exact opposite of what has been happening since the first anti-doping measures were implemented in 1967. What is perfectly clear to anybody who has the slightest understanding of what really goes on, is that the 'antidopers', as you call them, have shown almost unlimited tolerance of doping-to the point of corruption with their collusion, cover ups and blind eyes.snood said:
You then make the grand statement that 'not all doping products are the same in the real world' as if this is some profound revelation. I give in Snoody. You win; I just compete with your sophisticated insights.
As other Australians will attest that John Fahey was involved in the Sydney Olympic bid for 2000.... he was regarded by many as a puppet and a very weak man..... seems like they've installed a patsy in **** Pound's job so not to **** monger anymore doping stories about high profile athletes...... some interesting comments on Valverde...
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Madrid - The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) concluded its third World Conference on Doping in Sport on Saturday in Madrid, electing a new president and producing their new anti-doping code to be adopted in 2009.
Former Australian Finance Minister John Fahey will take charge of the organization, which was founded by the International Olympic Committee in 1999.
Members expect the stronger code will help add teeth to the global campaign against drug cheats, especially now that enforcement relies heavily on local police forces, and considering that doping is now a crime in five countries, including Spain.
The conference also comes two months after the US Drug Enforcement Agency, in collaboration with international police forces, confiscated 11.4 million steroid dosages, made 124 arrests and shut down 56 labs in the largest steroids bust in history, Operation Raw Deal.
Some principle points that add punch to the code include treating failure to show up for a test as a doping positive, placing the burden of proof of innocence on the athlete, and raising the sanction time for doping positives to a maximum of four years.
Despite the successes, there were still some points of discord, which will be decided later, including an opposition by some sports leagues to a move that would prohibit guilty players from training with their teams.
Also problematic has been that only 70 of the 191 countries that signed the 2003 WADA-sponsored Copenhagen Declaration have also signed the UNESCO Convention, which would effectively legally bind the governments to it.
Meanwhile, both the International Cycling Union, that sport's governing body, and WADA have continued to demand that Spain reopen the investigation into Spanish cyclist Alejandro Valverde, who the agencies claim was involved in the Operation Puerto doping scandal.
Complaining of nationalist protectionism, they have petitioned the Swiss Sport's Tribunal to take the case out of Spanish jurisdiction, and have also asked for a blood sample to compare with the Puerto blood bag, labeled with the name of Valverde's dog. Despite such protests, the Spanish government has defended the athlete adamantly, and has stated that it considers the matter closed.
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Madrid - The World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) concluded its third World Conference on Doping in Sport on Saturday in Madrid, electing a new president and producing their new anti-doping code to be adopted in 2009.
Former Australian Finance Minister John Fahey will take charge of the organization, which was founded by the International Olympic Committee in 1999.
Members expect the stronger code will help add teeth to the global campaign against drug cheats, especially now that enforcement relies heavily on local police forces, and considering that doping is now a crime in five countries, including Spain.
The conference also comes two months after the US Drug Enforcement Agency, in collaboration with international police forces, confiscated 11.4 million steroid dosages, made 124 arrests and shut down 56 labs in the largest steroids bust in history, Operation Raw Deal.
Some principle points that add punch to the code include treating failure to show up for a test as a doping positive, placing the burden of proof of innocence on the athlete, and raising the sanction time for doping positives to a maximum of four years.
Despite the successes, there were still some points of discord, which will be decided later, including an opposition by some sports leagues to a move that would prohibit guilty players from training with their teams.
Also problematic has been that only 70 of the 191 countries that signed the 2003 WADA-sponsored Copenhagen Declaration have also signed the UNESCO Convention, which would effectively legally bind the governments to it.
Meanwhile, both the International Cycling Union, that sport's governing body, and WADA have continued to demand that Spain reopen the investigation into Spanish cyclist Alejandro Valverde, who the agencies claim was involved in the Operation Puerto doping scandal.
Complaining of nationalist protectionism, they have petitioned the Swiss Sport's Tribunal to take the case out of Spanish jurisdiction, and have also asked for a blood sample to compare with the Puerto blood bag, labeled with the name of Valverde's dog. Despite such protests, the Spanish government has defended the athlete adamantly, and has stated that it considers the matter closed.
yeah, well, I think, who gives a rats.whiteboytrash said:
We know it is Valverde's blood, he knows, they know, we all know.
It should be about all the blood. It should be about Berend Nikels athletes in The Netherlands and Belgium, it should be about everyone.
One guy, like Landis, and Hamilton, and Jaksche and Sink, should not be held accountable for the sports ills.
For sure, hold them individually accountable. But proportional. They did, what probably 75% of the peloton did at that time.
thunder said:
On what basis do we all know that it's Valverdes blood?
The documentation certainly points to Valverde (and all of the other riders mentioned in Puerto) but WADA are correct in these circumstance.
To be certain that a rider is involved in Puerto - the only way to verify this fact is to test and until the Spanish allow access to the samples for testing,
we're caught in no-mans land.
thunder said:
Agreed - but it takes the prosecution of individual cases to ensure that each case is resolved and that if blame is going to apportioned that it is done so fairly.
my point Lim, it is absurd to take one guys blood when there are 30+ riders with blood packets.limerickman said:
And everyone knows it is Valverdes, we just do not "know" in the definition required for sanctions, yet, that seems, this charade, is good enough for the Spanish sporting fed, or whichever body, is indeed responsible.
thunder said:
Agreed - but isn't it WADA's stance that the entire Puerto file and all samples (for all riders) be tested included Valverde??
Now I don't think you are a doctor that specializes in doping, and I'm not, but this statement just doesn't stand up to reason.snood said:
1. The drug has been around for decades, and its use is widespread amongst athletes. Chinese Swimmer Yuan Yuan was busted in 1998 at Sydney Airport customs trying to smuggle 13 vials of the stuff (enough to supply the whole team at the world championships about to start in Perth). If what you say is true, then the whole athletic world and related doctors are numbskulls that would benefit greatly from your knowledge.
2. WADA have absolutely no upside in creating a red-herring out of HGH. This revelation is only embarrassing to them, and only increases the public perception that their role is relatively impotent in respect to prevention of doping.
Here is some research on the topic (I only have pasted copies of the abstracts):
The Growth Hormone/Insulin-Like Growth Factor-I Axis in Exercise and Sport
James Gibney, Marie-Louise Healy and Peter H. Sönksen
[size=-1]Department of Endocrinology and Diabetes (J.G.), Adelaide and Meath Hospital, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland; Department of Endocrinology and Diabetes (M.-L.H.), St. James’s Hospital, Dublin 8, Ireland; and Endocrinology and Metabolism Subdivision (P.H.S.), Developmental Origins of Adult Health and Disease Division, School of Medicine, University of Southampton, Southampton, United Kingdom [/size]
[size=-1]Correspondence: Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Peter Sönksen, East Wing Preshaw House, Preshaw, Upham, Hants SO32 1HP, United Kingdom. E-mail: [email protected] [/size]
The syndrome of adult GH deficiency and the effects of GH replacement therapy provide a useful model with which to study the effects of the GH/IGF-I axis on exercise physiology. Measures of exercise performance including maximal oxygen uptake and ventilatory threshold are impaired in adult GH deficiency and improved by GH replacement, probably through some combination of increased oxygen delivery to exercising muscle, increased fatty acid availability with glycogen sparing, increased muscle strength, improved body composition, and improved thermoregulation. In normal subjects, in addition to the long-term effects of GH/IGF-I status, there is evidence that the acute GH response to exercise is important in regulating substrate metabolism after exercise. Administration of supraphysiological doses of GH to athletes increases fatty acid availability and reduces oxidative protein loss, particularly during exercise, and increases lean body mass. Despite a lack of evidence that these metabolic effects translate to improved performance, GH abuse by athletes is widespread. Tests to detect GH abuse have been developed based on measurement in serum of 1) indirect markers of GH action, and 2) the relative proportions of the two major naturally occurring isoforms (20 and 22kDa) of GH. There is evidence that exercise performance and strength are improved by administration of GH and testosterone in combination to elderly subjects. The potential benefits of GH in these situations must be weighed against potential adverse effects.
And also:
Effects of High-Dose Growth Hormone on Glucose and Glycerol Metabolism at Rest and during Exercise in Endurance-Trained Athletes
M. L. Healy, J. Gibney, C. Pentecost, P. Croos, D. L. Russell-Jones, P. H. Sönksen and A. M. Umpleby
Department of Diabetes and Endocrinology, Guy’s, King’s and St. Thomas’ School of Medicine, St. Thomas Hospital, London SE1 7EH, United Kingdom
[size=-1]Address all correspondence and requests for reprints to: Dr. James Gibney, Department of Endocrinology, Adelaide & Meath Hospitals, incorporating the National Children’s Hospital, Tallaght, Dublin 24, Ireland. E-mail: [email protected] .[/size]
Context: Recombinant human-GH (r-hGH), in supraphysiological doses, is self-administered by athletes in the belief that it is performance enhancing.
Objective: The objective of this study was to determine whether r-hGH alters whole-body glucose and glycerol metabolism in endurance-trained athletes at rest and during and after exercise.
Design: This was a 4-wk double-blind placebo-controlled trial.
Setting: This study was conducted at St. Thomas Hospital (London, UK).
Participants: Twelve endurance-trained male athletes were recruited and randomized to r-hGH (0.2 U/kg·d) (n = 6) or identical placebo (n = 6) for 4 wk. One (placebo group) withdrew after randomization.
Intervention: Intervention was conducted by randomization to r-hGH (0.2 U/kg·d) or identical placebo for 4 wk.
Main Outcome Measures: Whole-body rates of appearance (Ra) of glucose and glycerol (an index of lipolysis) and rate of disappearance of glucose were measured using infusions of [size=-2]D[/size]-[6–6-2H2]glucose and 2H5-glycerol.
Results: Plasma levels of glycerol and free fatty acids and glycerol Ra at rest and during and after exercise increased during r-hGH treatment (P < 0.05 vs. placebo). Glucose Ra and glucose rate of disappearance were greater after exercise during r-hGH treatment (P < 0.05 vs. placebo). Resting energy expenditure and fat oxidation were greater under resting conditions during r-hGH treatment (P < 0.05 vs. placebo).
Conclusions: r-hGH in endurance-trained athletes increased lipolysis and fatty acid availability at rest and during and after exercise. r-hGH increased glucose production and uptake rates after exercise. The relevance of these effects for athletic performance is not known.
The research (just in these examples I found in five minutes of googling) found performance enhancements. But being good scientists, they didn't make extrapolatory claims outside of their testing sample. Scientists usually do small funded research programs such as this, which show positive results, and then bait potential research funders with a line that invites more support for better funded research and conclusions.snood said:
This has been a classic example of seeing what you want to see. The summaries in these abstracts, from limited research, show that hGH does have positive effects on fatty-acid metabolism for human endurance endeavour. They just don't have any data on pro-athletes.
But you miss the point I (and others have) made above those research pastes. Either you are right and thousands of sports doctors and athletes paying huge sums over 20-odd years are wrong, or the reverse is true. Hmmmmm..... I know where I would put my money.
A new Australian study backs up my point.Crankyfeet said:
"Australian scientists have made a startling discovery about the effect of human growth hormone on athletes.
They found the hormone had no impact on either muscle development or athletic performance."
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1941406.htm
1. If a substance is banned by a sporty authority it is banned. There is no further need to justification of the PED's effectiveness or lack of effectiveness.
2. Even if it did just amount to decrease bodyfat that in some cases can give a distinct advantage. If two athletes are striving for improved power to body weight ratio in cycling and athlete "A" is able to achieve improved body composition with PED's while athlete "B" may have to train on restricted calories to achieve the same body composition athlete "A" has an advantage in that those calories are used to enhance recovery. Athlete "B" may struggle in recovery because of the restricted calories. I'm not always saying that this may be the case, but your view is limited to how GH works or how it may be used for the goal. Think a little more outside the box.
3. I have been associated with athletes using GH first hand and I know that in some of those individuals we recorded significant increases muscle mass. There were some of those that recorded very little increase in lean muscle mass.
To say GH is not a true PED is absurd.
2. Even if it did just amount to decrease bodyfat that in some cases can give a distinct advantage. If two athletes are striving for improved power to body weight ratio in cycling and athlete "A" is able to achieve improved body composition with PED's while athlete "B" may have to train on restricted calories to achieve the same body composition athlete "A" has an advantage in that those calories are used to enhance recovery. Athlete "B" may struggle in recovery because of the restricted calories. I'm not always saying that this may be the case, but your view is limited to how GH works or how it may be used for the goal. Think a little more outside the box.
3. I have been associated with athletes using GH first hand and I know that in some of those individuals we recorded significant increases muscle mass. There were some of those that recorded very little increase in lean muscle mass.
To say GH is not a true PED is absurd.
HGH will have differing results because of responders.Felt_Rider said:
It actually might be performance dilutive if it burns too much energy and that energy is not used efficiently wrt fuelling performance and recovery.
It might see body fat levels fall too far and invite immune system failing, and sickness.
But, on the whole, when used in conjunction with other drugs, it is a PED.
It is not IGF-1 is it, what are the differences between IGF-1 and HGH.
I hear, the combinations used are
HGH and testosterone,
EPO and corticos
insulin and IGF-1
usually they go together and have a synergistic effect, going on the anecdotal evidence I have read.
I agreethunder said:
In reality I know of very few that use GH as a single drug and those who have claimed to use as a single drug complained of no effectiveness.
