War On Liberal America
- Thread starter Carrera
- Start date
It's just a hell of an angle, ok? Basic arguments over the fundamentals of racism in America are best avoided. None of us have the time to swim through that charged a can of nuclear worms. I'll admit it freely: I just don't have the energy.jaguar75 said:
Sorry.
Have you been elected to a position of leadership in this forum to speak for everyone? Did I miss that
How can you say that when all of us, including you, post stuff day and night The better question here is do you have enough time to work.
This is a petty and pathetic brush off and I am a bit surprised, Lokstah, that a debator such as yourself would have made such a dismissive comment and done so as if I was a 12 year old boy aggrevating you to go outside and play basketball.
hmmm....
Ali originally failed his intelligence test for the Vietnam war. Here is the question that screwed him up:
"A clerk divided a number by 3.5 when it should be multiplied by 4.5. His answer is 3. What is the correct answer:
(a)3.25 (b)10.50 (c) 13.75 (d) 47.25"
The beginning of Ali's woes started over this failure. Here was a guy who was smart enough to knock out Sonny Liston and physically superior to most others, yet he was excluded from the draft on a point of IQ, till political pressure built up to list him.
I don't really have much of an opinion on the Ali issue and there are various ways you can look at it. On the one hand you can argue Ali became a millionaire through boxing and should have done his service. On the other hand, you can argue his religion was a genuine factor.
The following is reproduced in a book I'm reading on the issue:
"In fact, during the war, 31 per cent of eligible black males were drafted but only 18 per cent of whites, who were more likely to receive student deferments, or be declared ineligible on a technicality."
"In 1967 only 35 per cent of blacks and less that twenty per cent of whites opposed the war. That was about to change but at the time Ali took his stand he didn't have a whole lot of sympathy from black soldiers."
This book was written by Howard Bingham and Max Wallace. Haven't heard of them before. Even so, I think it's interesting how wars usually start of with a lot of public support but this support subsides as the years roll by. In the U.K. there was some support at the start of the Iraq war but this has clearly died a death. I strongly suspect the same thing will happen in America too but only time will tell.
Just as you would be very unpopular to criticize the Vietnam war, so we see the same thing over Iraq. I read there has been some kind of boycot against Cheryl Crow's records as she was apparently vocal over the war issue. Madonna has also taken some stick as well and it's a tough decision to risk your record sales going down if you express an unpopular view.
And I hear Jane Fonda was the celebrity who angered the public even more than Ali did over Vietnam.
"A clerk divided a number by 3.5 when it should be multiplied by 4.5. His answer is 3. What is the correct answer:
(a)3.25 (b)10.50 (c) 13.75 (d) 47.25"
The beginning of Ali's woes started over this failure. Here was a guy who was smart enough to knock out Sonny Liston and physically superior to most others, yet he was excluded from the draft on a point of IQ, till political pressure built up to list him.
I don't really have much of an opinion on the Ali issue and there are various ways you can look at it. On the one hand you can argue Ali became a millionaire through boxing and should have done his service. On the other hand, you can argue his religion was a genuine factor.
The following is reproduced in a book I'm reading on the issue:
"In fact, during the war, 31 per cent of eligible black males were drafted but only 18 per cent of whites, who were more likely to receive student deferments, or be declared ineligible on a technicality."
"In 1967 only 35 per cent of blacks and less that twenty per cent of whites opposed the war. That was about to change but at the time Ali took his stand he didn't have a whole lot of sympathy from black soldiers."
This book was written by Howard Bingham and Max Wallace. Haven't heard of them before. Even so, I think it's interesting how wars usually start of with a lot of public support but this support subsides as the years roll by. In the U.K. there was some support at the start of the Iraq war but this has clearly died a death. I strongly suspect the same thing will happen in America too but only time will tell.
Just as you would be very unpopular to criticize the Vietnam war, so we see the same thing over Iraq. I read there has been some kind of boycot against Cheryl Crow's records as she was apparently vocal over the war issue. Madonna has also taken some stick as well and it's a tough decision to risk your record sales going down if you express an unpopular view.
And I hear Jane Fonda was the celebrity who angered the public even more than Ali did over Vietnam.
jaguar75 said:
Carrera said:
I have seen that name Max Wallace before...I just can not place it. I find statistics to be a bunch of facinating ****...Though they do show a lot of information they are not always reflective of the underlying theme.
That is not why clebrities are blasted...They are shunned because they say spiteful, hateful things against the soldiers and they go about expressing their views as if to shove it down your throat. A lot of folks, including I, think its stupid that celebrities parade on their media exposure to express their political views. Just like the Dixie Chics did when they blasted George W. People want to hear your mouth produce lyrics not spew forth your political sentiments. Their career all but ended until they all made a very sincere public apology.
Why don't you read Thomas Hauser's biography of Ali. That's the official book on the subject. How many cars have you got in the parking lot tonight? Have you taken all the newspapers out of the trashcans? Or should it be, have you taken all the trash newspapers out of the cans?
there is more than enough u.s. perpetrated criminal atrocity going on that wether this is true or not should not be the determining factor to incite outrage.
when crimes against humanity under false and illegall pretense are committed against humanity it should not matter to us if it is in our backyard or against those many times innocent but falsely villified because of their nationality, where they live, or their cultural beliefs.
if you are not outraged, you are not paying attention, and this war is as much on the people of america as anyone.
when crimes against humanity under false and illegall pretense are committed against humanity it should not matter to us if it is in our backyard or against those many times innocent but falsely villified because of their nationality, where they live, or their cultural beliefs.
if you are not outraged, you are not paying attention, and this war is as much on the people of america as anyone.
Carrera said:
Carrera said:
152 EXECUTIONS AS GOVERNOR OF TEXAS
Although he said he was anguished by the decision, in an interview in Talk magazine, writer Tucker Carlson described Bush mimicking the woman's final plea for her life. "'Please,' Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, 'don't kill me.'"
- Time Magazine
http://www.bushkills.com/
touché'. Although it is good buisiness for small communities, they built A "Supermax" prison in Virginia, warehousing as opposed to intervention is bankrupting us. You can see how alot of poster's here are saying lock em' up w/o ANY REGARD to prevention/schooling/parenting. Nice crowdCarrera said:
During the 1990s, a new generation of super–maximum security or supermax prisons began to spread. These institutions were designed for the universal and permanent isolation of all their inhabitants. (Control units, by contrast, confine a subgroup within a larger institution.) By 2002,
according to Human Rights Watch, more than 20,000 prisoners, or nearly 2 percent of the U.S. prison population, were being held in long-term
solitary confinement. From the beginning, control units have relied on sensory deprivation. Prisoners are confined in tiny cells the size of a parking space for twenty-three or twenty-four hours a day, often in what they describe as an “eerie silence.” In some cases, constant unpleasant noise, or having the lights on twenty-four hours a day, creates a different form of sensory
assault, with similar effects. Letters from prisoners tell of living in a cage the size of a small bathroom (or considerably smaller in some instances), with tiers of other cages above, below, and to either side. Many of the cells have no windows. The cells are often soundproof and there is little interaction with anyone other than staff. Educational or therapeutic programming is nonexistent; even exercise is solitary. Visits, telephone calls, and mail from family and friends are severely restricted, and reading material is censored. When a prisoner leaves the cell, a strip search is conducted, often including a pointedly humiliating anal probe — even though the prisoner may have had no direct contact with another human being for months.
Agree, due to this:lokstah said:
Amendment VIII (to The Constitution)
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. Thats for all of the "hang em' high" poster's. http://www.archives.gov/national_archives_experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html
I'll go ahead & say it now-"Touché'"
You are the voice of reason my freind, the voice of reason. Too bad these feller's ain't buyin what yer' sellin' (the truth). Bill of Right's man !!! Those naysayer's might want to bone-up on their civil-right's, protected by the Constitution I might add; unless the Patriot act eviscerated them. Maybe they are ONLY concerned when it comes to their right's, not other's right'slokstah said:
Read all of them, every single one including Norman Mailer and his take on the Rumble In The Jungle.. Also read Smokin Joe Frazier's account of his feud with Ali. Moreover I read every single write up on Ali by the people who fought him, such as George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper e.t.c.
This latest book I refer to was interesting as it covers the political background to Ali's stance over Vietnam.
Let's bear in mind, however, that Ali never blasted the people who did opt to fight in Vietnam so long as they did what they did, believeing it was O.K. for them. And he also condemned violent protests.
Why are you so interested in what job I do or who I am e.t.c. I'm afraid you'll have to remain in the dark on that score.
This latest book I refer to was interesting as it covers the political background to Ali's stance over Vietnam.
Let's bear in mind, however, that Ali never blasted the people who did opt to fight in Vietnam so long as they did what they did, believeing it was O.K. for them. And he also condemned violent protests.
Why are you so interested in what job I do or who I am e.t.c. I'm afraid you'll have to remain in the dark on that score.
FredC said:
Thanks heavens there are some liberals on the forum from the other side of the pond. I was beginning to feel like Rocky Balbao in the 14th round - Fred C yelling towards the opposite corner, "Go to the body! Finish him off!"
Just kidding.
I think that maybe I took some heat as my posts seemed to be being directed at American prisons while I didn't include accounts of problems that exist elsewhere. One of the worst I saw was a boot camp in Kazakhstan where young detainees were forced to walk on their haunches while priests heaped lavish praise on the institution. The Russian reporter who exposed the activity with a secret camera was later arrested.
I also saw a disturbing documentary on the treatment of young offenders world wide. Brazil was particularly bad and Southern States of the U.S.A. were criticized over a number of boot camps.
Again, my take on all of this is that much crime is connected with other social problems such as family breakdown, alcoholism, drugs, poverty e.t.c.
Only a minority of people who have been locked up are what might be described as evil people. And the idea, if it's true, of women and children being forced into chain gangs is truly shocking if there is even a remote possibility such a policy might be accepted.
Just kidding.
I think that maybe I took some heat as my posts seemed to be being directed at American prisons while I didn't include accounts of problems that exist elsewhere. One of the worst I saw was a boot camp in Kazakhstan where young detainees were forced to walk on their haunches while priests heaped lavish praise on the institution. The Russian reporter who exposed the activity with a secret camera was later arrested.
I also saw a disturbing documentary on the treatment of young offenders world wide. Brazil was particularly bad and Southern States of the U.S.A. were criticized over a number of boot camps.
Again, my take on all of this is that much crime is connected with other social problems such as family breakdown, alcoholism, drugs, poverty e.t.c.
Only a minority of people who have been locked up are what might be described as evil people. And the idea, if it's true, of women and children being forced into chain gangs is truly shocking if there is even a remote possibility such a policy might be accepted.
davidmc said:touché'. Although it is good buisiness for small communities, they built A "Supermax" prison in Virginia, warehousing as opposed to intervention is bankrupting us. You can see how alot of poster's here are saying lock em' up w/o ANY REGARD to prevention/schooling/parenting. Nice crowd
During the 1990s, a new generation of super–maximum security or supermax prisons began to spread. These institutions were designed for the universal and permanent isolation of all their inhabitants. (Control units, by contrast, confine a subgroup within a larger institution.) By 2002,
according to Human Rights Watch, more than 20,000 prisoners, or nearly 2 percent of the U.S. prison population, were being held in long-term
solitary confinement. From the beginning, control units have relied on sensory deprivation. Prisoners are confined in tiny cells the size of a parking space for twenty-three or twenty-four hours a day, often in what they describe as an “eerie silence.” In some cases, constant unpleasant noise, or having the lights on twenty-four hours a day, creates a different form of sensory
assault, with similar effects. Letters from prisoners tell of living in a cage the size of a small bathroom (or considerably smaller in some instances), with tiers of other cages above, below, and to either side. Many of the cells have no windows. The cells are often soundproof and there is little interaction with anyone other than staff. Educational or therapeutic programming is nonexistent; even exercise is solitary. Visits, telephone calls, and mail from family and friends are severely restricted, and reading material is censored. When a prisoner leaves the cell, a strip search is conducted, often including a pointedly humiliating anal probe — even though the prisoner may have had no direct contact with another human being for months.
I know you live in Virginia...another "smoke em if you got em" state...But really, Texas has led the nation in executions for years even though they stopped them for a while in the late 70's early 80's...davidmc said:
Just take a look at the list...Here is just one nugget of alpo for you.
"In 1984, Karla Tucker was convicted of the brutal murders of her ex-lover, Jerry Lynn Dean, and his companion, Deborah Thornton and sentenced to the death penalty. During her trial, Tucker admitted that on June 13, 1983, she and her boyfriend at the time, Daniel Ryan Garrett, took a pickax and hacked Dean and Thornton to death while they were sleeping."
Yes...outstanding citizens here.....
As a side note, After letting a bunch of killers go in Ark. Clinton reversed his stance on capitol punishment and left the 1992 presidential campaign to fly home for the execution of Rickey Ray Rector, a retarded murderer...Although he deserved to die, your hero took great pride in watching him die. So, although your little tabloid enriched site was very entertaining and your headline may get a little attention. When you get to the bottom of the **** hole that you lefties thrive in, there is no point....So, Bush killed people who killed innocent Texas citizens...I suppose you would rather he put them in pink undies??? or pick undies as sudo porsche calls them...Make up you mind will ya?
It's interesting how much attitudes have changed in this country since the sixties. We used to have these borstal institutions where juvenile offenders were treated like in boot camps. They called it a short, sharp shock. I know a girl in my area who was paid compensation for having been left practically naked in solitary confinement. Even at school, I personally witnessed genuine violence - something that would be unthinkable today. I mean, I saw a teacher hurl someone across the room and then kick and stamp on him. That was in the seventies, I think.
Now we have gone from one extreme to another and have changed from becoming over repressive to over liberal. What's needed is a sensible balance.
My own view is that folks who commit moderate crime should be assessed and evaluated by qualified people. You need to find out if there's some history of family abuse, alcoholism in a family or some destabilising factor. You need to have the person understand that a crime is a crime and is socially unacceptable to others but this isn't accomplished by marching the individual about in chains or dressing them up in pink "pick-shorts".
What's up with sports programs like those Schwarzennegger favours, together with counselling?
Again I'm not talking about serial killers or Nazi war criminals, simply folks who come from a deprived background or a broken family and never had the same chances as your average white collar, middle class person.
Now we have gone from one extreme to another and have changed from becoming over repressive to over liberal. What's needed is a sensible balance.
My own view is that folks who commit moderate crime should be assessed and evaluated by qualified people. You need to find out if there's some history of family abuse, alcoholism in a family or some destabilising factor. You need to have the person understand that a crime is a crime and is socially unacceptable to others but this isn't accomplished by marching the individual about in chains or dressing them up in pink "pick-shorts".
What's up with sports programs like those Schwarzennegger favours, together with counselling?
Again I'm not talking about serial killers or Nazi war criminals, simply folks who come from a deprived background or a broken family and never had the same chances as your average white collar, middle class person.
davidmc said:touché'. Although it is good buisiness for small communities, they built A "Supermax" prison in Virginia, warehousing as opposed to intervention is bankrupting us. You can see how alot of poster's here are saying lock em' up w/o ANY REGARD to prevention/schooling/parenting. Nice crowd
During the 1990s, a new generation of super–maximum security or supermax prisons began to spread. These institutions were designed for the universal and permanent isolation of all their inhabitants. (Control units, by contrast, confine a subgroup within a larger institution.) By 2002,
according to Human Rights Watch, more than 20,000 prisoners, or nearly 2 percent of the U.S. prison population, were being held in long-term
solitary confinement. From the beginning, control units have relied on sensory deprivation. Prisoners are confined in tiny cells the size of a parking space for twenty-three or twenty-four hours a day, often in what they describe as an “eerie silence.” In some cases, constant unpleasant noise, or having the lights on twenty-four hours a day, creates a different form of sensory
assault, with similar effects. Letters from prisoners tell of living in a cage the size of a small bathroom (or considerably smaller in some instances), with tiers of other cages above, below, and to either side. Many of the cells have no windows. The cells are often soundproof and there is little interaction with anyone other than staff. Educational or therapeutic programming is nonexistent; even exercise is solitary. Visits, telephone calls, and mail from family and friends are severely restricted, and reading material is censored. When a prisoner leaves the cell, a strip search is conducted, often including a pointedly humiliating anal probe — even though the prisoner may have had no direct contact with another human being for months.
