War On Liberal America

[davidmc]

There's a slight misunderstanding of this theme on poverty.
Really I'm the same as you when the chips are down and I might unexpectedly have to defend myself or family from violent criminals. Just like yourself, I'd hit out first and ask questions later. Naturally you have to put yourself and a potential victim first.
But having embraced that initial reality, I believe politicians and sociologists, at the very least, need to consider the idea that crime is a social problem linked to a number of factors. I mean, I agree with Schwarzennegger when he pushes the line that sports can play a positive role in keeping people on the straight and narrow, as well as employment and opportunity, social programs and investment.
Let's face it, the reality for many people is life in a squalid flat in a run-down area with parents who could be into drugs or even alcoholics. Such people have never experienced a stable family environment. As a result, they wind up joining some street gang or other and, before you know it, they're behind bars.
In the worst case scenario, such an individual then finds himself under the jurisdiction of one of these ingenious sheriffs, we've been discussing, who decides that maybe parading the inmates publically in pink pants as part of a chain gang is just the ticket to bring about a change in atttitude. Usually the public applauds that kind of policy! It certainly gratifies the mainstream desire for revenge, but I don't think it does any long term good.
I agree with you that some crime cannot be excused so easily. Rape, for example, destroys the victim's life and you can't simply dismiss these actions as not being linked to personal responsibility. I think I'm talking more about gangland culture, street crime, theft and anti social behaviour.
You may know that police officers in Brazil used to simply accept the idea that street kids were a lost cause as they came from such deprived areas it was considered inevitable they'd fall into gangland culture. So, police simply did away with many of the kids and they went missing. However, liberals don't support policies that "do away" with potential gang members. Liberals recommend social funding for recreational programs, encourage sports, education and try to look into the root causes of crime.

"try to look into the root causes of crime". I like you You are rational. A warning though, prepare to be attacked for you're pronouncement.

 

[davidmc]

I for one do not see the need to "pigeon hole" individuals. You could be a republican and not support GW or a card carrying liberal and support the death penalty. I refuse to be classified.
I am too damn wierd to be defined.
So there! I support and defend # 1 ,the big cheese, El Magnifico....you know me.

Well, no, there are "moderates" but one must mention that fact. I like some moderate Republican's like hatch, voinovich, spectre, ect...

 

[jaguar75]

WOW, I certainly did get a response or an attack!

Here is the "rise" you said you might receive (I'm a dyed in the wool, liberal/progressive to the core, bikerider):

What the hell is a liberal/progressive? Everytime I turn around people are coining new terms to describe themselves politicaly. I mean is this the I don't quite want to be considered a hard core liberal so I think I will call myself a progressive/liberal or better yet I don't think I want to be just a conservative I want to be a gas consuming, gun toting, baby seal clubbing, tuna eating conservative, Mountain biker...lol

I don't subscribe to the "herd-mentality" & "status-quo" of the two party system. I've said it before & I'll say it again-"It's time to drain the swamp" (allow other parties to participate in the system besides Repulicrats or Demopublicans). Heard about the Abramoff story http://slate.msn.com/id/2117520/nav/ais/ Up until recently, they have been "one in the same". People (maybe even you) are afraid to think for themselves so they have to get a party (in this case one of the two entrenched parties) to speak for them.

While I can't say I disagree with this, no matter what party you create, people are going to follow it because if they believe in what you stand for then you will become their voice. People who subscribe to conservatives and Liberals need to belong to something...think of it as a support group...he he he. Just as I sit around with my conservative friends and talk about how much Clinton screwed this country up and how close we all came to having a total lame duck like Kerry doesn't mean that you don't sit around with you Liberal friends and talk about how the repubs are draining the economy and bring the counry back to the dark ages.

"It's time to drain the swamp"

Is this a direct attack on my heretige?...lol

By your reasoning, & other misguided souls who share your veiw; all vet's-like myself-must be Republican. You are incorrect in making this BROAD, OVERREACHING GENERALIZATION. Mt father is a retired, vietnam era, combat aviator & a Progressive Democrat. He never "hugged" his way out of a darn thing I also am a Veteran &, you guessed it, a Progressive Independent.

Now hold on there David...I never made this about vets...you brought vets into this...and after all of the posts I have made, you should know my support of soldiers...I hold them on pedestals!
This is strictly a view of politcs...leave soldiers out of this.

 

[davidmc]

WOW, I certainly did get a response or an attack!
While I can't say I disagree with this, no matter what party you create, people are going to follow it because if they believe in what you stand for then you will become their voice. People who subscribe to conservatives and Liberals need to belong to something...think of it as a support group...he he he. Just as I sit around with my conservative friends and talk about how much Clinton screwed this country up and how close we all came to having a total lame duck like Kerry doesn't mean that you don't sit around with you Liberal friends and talk about how the repubs are draining the economy and bring the counry back to the dark ages.Now hold on there David...I never made this about vets...you brought vets into this...and after all of the posts I have made, you should know my support of soldiers...I hold them on pedestals!This is strictly a view of politcs...leave soldiers out of this.

When you make a comment such as: "It is the Conservative way to take the hard core approach and for the liberals to take the - we hope it will get better if we just look the other way and if it still does not then we will hug our way there!!!", you are equating liberalism to pacifism. This is not always the case. It is tantamount to saying all Generals are conservatives or Republicans (see: General Wesely Clark) Conversely, there is something to be said for civil disobediance. Ask Martin Luther King or Mahatma Ghandi. They accomplished a hell of alot w/o killing people & breaking things. Also, liberals try to change the endemic, structural obstacles to advancement so people can accel before they end up on death row. What's wrong w/ that

 

[jaguar75]

But what do you mean by "hard core approach"? Chain gangs or shop-lifters carrying guilt placards in the streets?

What I mean is very simple...For every action there is a simple and swift consequence.

Many liberals will also go along with the idea there is such a thing as personal responsibilty for your actions.

You make this sound like liberals wake up everyday and decide if they are going to be honorable or not...as if to say you will decide to apologise or not if you knock some old lady out of the way at Starbucks because she is about to get the last of the Latte'(however you spell that)

For me, liberalism has much to do with individual choice, respect for workers rights, human rights, personal dignity, freedom of expression and opinion, the right to a social safety net to be protected from poverty and freedom from sexual or racial discrimination e.t.c.
So, as a liberal the idea of women and children in chain gangs as a solution to antisocial behaviour is like a step back in time to the mediaeval period.

Show me a picture of a child in a chain gang. You are reaching...So should these same criminals be allowed to sit in a jail cell and lift weights all day and hang out with fellow gang members and be up to no good? If that is the case then just erect a wall around Compton, CA and let em go at it because that is all they do in prison now is just lift weights, beat the **** out of other people if not kill them and hang around and do nothing.

 

[jaguar75]

Ask Martin Luther King or Mahatma Ghandi. They accomplished a hell of alot w/o killing people & breaking things.

Oh yeah, great examples...they accomplished a lot alright, The US is about to have a racial meltdown and India and Pakistan came within hours of total nuclear war. Yeah thats real great work!!!

 

[davidmc]

Oh yeah, great examples...they accomplished a lot alright, The US is about to have a racial meltdown and India and Pakistan came within hours of total nuclear war. Yeah thats real great work!!!

Seems you forgot about India's independence No matter. Whats this "meltdown" you speak of

 

[Carrera]

Prepare to be attacked? God, they made mincemeat of me soon as the thread began.
I was thinking, though, that one poster made the statement that crime had gotten worse under Bill Clinton which I've no idea whether this is true. I do know that Clinton cut back on welfare benefits for immigrants and that might possibly explain an increase in crime.
Myself I'm a believer in the French model of slower economic growth but higher welfare since I figure that it costs less to pay out reasonable welfare than it does to pay to keep someone in prison. In this country it costs some 20.000 sterling or more to keep an individual in prison but they spend only a fraction of that sum on welfare per capita.
I think the less people you have in prison, the more money you have available for social investment, sports facilities e.t.c. A high prison population is cause for concern and seems to me to embody collective social failure as well as individual.
I have relatives who were also in Vietnam but it was way before my time.

"try to look into the root causes of crime". I like you You are rational. A warning though, prepare to be attacked for you're pronouncement.

 

[Carrera]

I just found out the BBC has investigated this whole idea that the Abu Ghraib prison scandal goes a whole lot deeper than Iraq so it looks to me that I hit onto something after a fairly superficial investigation.
The implications of all of this are important to consider. If conditions in Abu Ghraib and Camp Delta have now been improved due to pressure from human rights groups and the media, might it be the case that many American people are suffering a kind of discrimination - since less campaigning has been carried out to improve standards in some American prisons. The report dismissed this idea that the prisoners affected were the most violent rapists or serial killers. Some of these folks were guilty of little more than causing a fuss in a grocery store.
Check out these quotations:
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"Each tape provides a shocking insight into the reality of life inside the U.S. prison system – a reality that sits very uncomfortably with President Bush’s commitment to the battle for freedom and democracy against the forces of tyranny and oppression.

In fact, the Texas episode outlined above dates from 1996, when Bush was state Governor

Frank Carlson was one of the lawyers who fought a compensation battle on behalf of the victims. I asked him about his reaction when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke last year and U.S. politicians rushed to express their astonishment and disgust that such abuses could happen at the hands of American guards.

‘I thought: “What hypocrisy,” Carlson told me. ‘Because they know we do it here every day.’

All the lawyers I spoke to during our investigations shared Carlson’s belief that Abu Ghraib, far from being the work of a few rogue individuals, was simply the export of the worst practices that take place in the domestic prison system all the time. They pointed to the mountain of files stacked on their desks, on the floor, in their office corridors – endless stories of appalling, sadistic treatment inside America’s own prisons."
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Now check this out: Seems like the BBC have heard of this Arpaio guy:

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"Two of the deaths we investigated were in the same county jail in Phoenix, Arizona, which is run by a man who revels in the title of ‘America’s Toughest Sheriff.’

His name is Joe Arpaio. He positively welcomes TV crews and we were promised ‘unfettered access.’ It was a reassuring turn of phrase – you don’t want to be fettered in one of Sheriff Joe’s jails.

We uncovered two videotapes from surveillance cameras showing how his tough stance can end in tragedy.

The first tape, from 2001, shows a man named Charles Agster dragged in by police, handcuffed at the wrists and ankles. Agster is mentally disturbed and a drug user. He was arrested for causing a disturbance in a late-night grocery store. The police handed him over to the Sheriff’s deputies in the jail. Agster is a tiny man, weighing no more than nine stone, but he’s struggling.

The tape shows nine deputies manhandling him into the restraint chair. One of them kneels on Agster’s stomach, pushing his head forward on to his knees and pulling his arms back to strap his wrists into the chair.

Bending someone double for any length of time is dangerous – the manuals on the use of the 'restraint chair’ warn of the dangers of ‘positional asphyxia.’

Fifteen minutes later, a nurse notices Agster is unconscious. The cameras show frantic efforts to resuscitate him, but he’s already brain dead. He died three days later in hospital. Agster's family is currently suing Arizona County.

The second tape, from five years earlier, shows Scott Norberg dying a similar death in the same jail. He was also a drug user arrested for causing a nuisance. Norberg was severely beaten by the guards, stunned up to 19 times with a Taser gun and forced into the chair where – like Charles Agster – he suffocated.

The county’s insurers paid Norberg’s family more than £4 millions in an out-of-court settlement, but the sheriff was furious with the deal. ‘My officers were clear,’ he said. ‘The insurance firm was afraid to go before a jury.’

Now he’s determined to fight the Agster case all the way through the courts. Yet tonight, in Sheriff Joe’s jail, there’ll probably be someone else strapped into the chair.
No one should doubt that the vast majority of U.S. prison officers are decent individuals doing their best in difficult circumstances. But when horrific abuse by the few goes unreported and uninvestigated, it solidifies into a general climate of acceptance among the many.

At the same time the overall hardening of attitudes in modern-day America has meant the notion of rehabilitation has been almost lost. The focus is entirely on punishment – even loss of liberty is not seen as punishment enough. Being on the restraint devices and the chemical sprays.

Since we finished filming for the programme in January, I’ve stayed in contact with various prisoners’ rights groups and the families of many of the victims. Every single day come more e-mails full of fresh horror stories. In the past weeks, two more prisoners have died, in Alabama and Ohio. One man was pepper sprayed, the other tasered."

 

[Carrera]

The latest news is that after travelling to America and searching for new policies they can implement, the Labour Party have decided to introduce a somewhat milder version of chain gangs, as seen in Arizona.
The brainwave is to send offenders out into the streets wearing orange (not pink) costumes to do tasks such as cleaning streets or menial tasks. The idea of them wearing orange suits is to supposedly send a signal to the public that something is being done.
Typical Labour baloney, of course.
All of this has come about because John Prescot was apparently menaced by a gang of thugs and had to be rescued by his body guards.
But how on earth is parading hooligans in orange costumes going to reduce crime if crime is linked to bad parenting and, in many cases, unemployment?

 

[jhuskey]

The latest news is that after travelling to America and searching for new policies they can implement, the Labour Party have decided to introduce a somewhat milder version of chain gangs, as seen in Arizona.
The brainwave is to send offenders out into the streets wearing orange (not pink) costumes to do tasks such as cleaning streets or menial tasks. The idea of them wearing orange suits is to supposedly send a signal to the public that something is being done.
Typical Labour baloney, of course.
All of this has come about because John Prescot was apparently menaced by a gang of thugs and had to be rescued by his body guards.
But how on earth is parading hooligans in orange costumes going to reduce crime if crime is linked to bad parenting and, in many cases, unemployment?

Yes of course the whole problem is unemployment. I wish we had seen it before.That's sarcasm ,by the way.
The French closed devils island what are we supposed to do.
I believe the point is to get felons to return a little to society by working instaed of watching TV all day while taxpayer pay for their upkeep.They tried dressing them in camoflage but for some reason it just didn't work.
The orange seems to set them apart a little.

 

[Carrera]

I've had the same problem as Prescot. You know, aggressive drunks coming up to you in the street, being abusive and a pain in the backside. Car drivers are the worse, yelling abuse and trying to run you over. It's all anti-social behaviour.
However, I think davemc had it right when I seem to recall he suggested you have to nip this kind of thing in the bud during school years. The thing is, you have families where the parents drink beer in front of the T.V. and simply don't bother what their kids get up to. There's no responsible family environment. So, it comes as no surprise to me that people grow up to be antisocial or maybe drifting into petty crime.
Dressing these characters up in orange boiler suits may make people feel good but it doesn't address the root causes.

Yes of course the whole problem is unemployment. I wish we had seen it before.That's sarcasm ,by the way.
The French closed devils island what are we supposed to do.
I believe the point is to get felons to return a little to society by working instaed of watching TV all day while taxpayer pay for their upkeep.They tried dressing them in camoflage but for some reason it just didn't work.
The orange seems to set them apart a little.

 

[Carrera]

As I recall, several states in the U.S.A. endorsed boot camps as a means of stamping out anti-social behaviour. Some of the boot camps were professional and constructive, while others were highly abusive. There's a website that highlights the boot camp phenomenon on the link below:
http://www.sonic.net/~doretk/Issues/97-06 JUN/gulag.html

I've had the same problem as Prescot. You know, aggressive drunks coming up to you in the street, being abusive and a pain in the backside. Car drivers are the worse, yelling abuse and trying to run you over. It's all anti-social behaviour.
However, I think davemc had it right when I seem to recall he suggested you have to nip this kind of thing in the bud during school years. The thing is, you have families where the parents drink beer in front of the T.V. and simply don't bother what their kids get up to. There's no responsible family environment. So, it comes as no surprise to me that people grow up to be antisocial or maybe drifting into petty crime.
Dressing these characters up in orange boiler suits may make people feel good but it doesn't address the root causes.

 

[jhuskey]

I've had the same problem as Prescot. You know, aggressive drunks coming up to you in the street, being abusive and a pain in the backside. Car drivers are the worse, yelling abuse and trying to run you over. It's all anti-social behaviour.
However, I think davemc had it right when I seem to recall he suggested you have to nip this kind of thing in the bud during school years. The thing is, you have families where the parents drink beer in front of the T.V. and simply don't bother what their kids get up to. There's no responsible family environment. So, it comes as no surprise to me that people grow up to be antisocial or maybe drifting into petty crime.
Dressing these characters up in orange boiler suits may make people feel good but it doesn't address the root causes.

The orange is to set them apart so they have less tendency to walk off while under minimun security.
I happened to be in Nashville Tn a few years back when two strangers approached me and asked for a loan. I refused to give them money as they appeared to be well fed,young and healthy and I also don't open by billfold to strangers in a parking lot of a convenience store.They seemed quite friendly.
They then asked me directions to Memphis and I responed by pointing to the overpass and saying turn left.
I watched as they proceded toward the entrance ramp, but after they had traveled about 50 feet a State Dept of Corrections car picked them up.
They had wandered off from a work detail.
They were not wearing any clothes that would ID them from any other average person.

 

[davidmc]

Just some pics you might find of interest . I wonder if my country, The U.S.A., is going to end up being a Theocracy or a Plutocracy

 

[Carrera]

Do you think the Iraq situation is as bad as Vietnam? Do you reckon the Iraq was is more unjust than the Vietnam war and that this lastest situation is the worst period in American history? Or do you see it all as similar to Vietnam?
I suppose that back then you had major problems with race relations, Martin Luther King, civil unrest and the repressive Hoover with his spy network. Now you have strong religious, right-wing influence in politics which is another angle.
Funny, though, as this religious trend has been lurking around for some time. When John Lennon said he felt more popular than Jesus Christ, Americans went bananas, burning Beatle records on bonfires and boycotting records. The Beatles thought seriously about cancelling their tour. Lennon was dumbfounded over how a simple remark could have caused so much hysteria.
But if you were to say that, in this country, David Beckham was more popular than Jesus Christ, it would be an accurate statement. Football is now the new state religion and, wherever you go, people seem to need something to worship. Football, religion and gladiators are all mass events used to control the masses.

Just some pics you might find of interest . I wonder if my country, The U.S.A., is going to end up being a Theocracy or a Plutocracy

 

[jhuskey]

Do you think the Iraq situation is as bad as Vietnam? Do you reckon the Iraq was is more unjust than the Vietnam war and that this lastest situation is the worst period in American history? Or do you see it all as similar to Vietnam?
I suppose that back then you had major problems with race relations, Martin Luther King, civil unrest and the repressive Hoover with his spy network. Now you have strong religious, right-wing influence in politics which is another angle.
Funny, though, as this religious trend has been lurking around for some time. When John Lennon said he felt more popular than Jesus Christ, Americans went bananas, burning Beatle records on bonfires and boycotting records. The Beatles thought seriously about cancelling their tour. Lennon was dumbfounded over how a simple remark could have caused so much hysteria.
But if you were to say that, in this country, David Beckham was more popular than Jesus Christ, it would be an accurate statement. Football is now the new state religion and, wherever you go, people seem to need something to worship. Football, religion and gladiators are all mass events used to control the masses.

I tend to agree with you on the summary that humans have not evolved that much emotionally in the last 2000 years.
Our technology for killing has gotten better and with the electronic age and the media we can get ****** off and hate others with much more effeciency and speed.

 

[Carrera]

People have grown soft on technology. To the Greeks, war was a means of development of physical power and moral courage. The war in Iraq would have been judged cowardly since most of the war boiled down to using technology against an undeveloped nation. Compare that with 500 Spartans up against thousands of Persians in a corner with just swords and shields. Or, the fact that a minority of united Greeks defeated the entire Imperial Persian Army.
Moreover, there were no buses, no cars, no junk food, hardly any crime and strictly no obesity. People ran, swam, worked in the gym, did martial arts and threw in a little philosophy.
Pity the Greeks didn't have roadbikes, though.

I tend to agree with you on the summary that humans have not evolved that much emotionally in the last 2000 years.
Our technology for killing has gotten better and with the electronic age and the media we can get ****** off and hate others with much more effeciency and speed.

 

[jhuskey]

People have grown soft on technology. To the Greeks, war was a means of development of physical power and moral courage. The war in Iraq would have been judged cowardly since most of the war boiled down to using technology against an undeveloped nation. Compare that with 500 Spartans up against thousands of Persians in a corner with just swords and shields. Or, the fact that a minority of united Greeks defeated the entire Imperial Persian Army.
Moreover, there were no buses, no cars, no junk food, hardly any crime and strictly no obesity. People ran, swam, worked in the gym, did martial arts and threw in a little philosophy.
Pity the Greeks didn't have roadbikes, though.

Road bikes? They need mountain bikes,not that many roads back then.
The big difference I see is that you looked into the eyes of your opponent then.You might even have know him name.
Today you rarely see who your are at battle with.

 

[davidmc]

Do you think the Iraq situation is as bad as Vietnam? Do you reckon the Iraq was is more unjust than the Vietnam war and that this lastest situation is the worst period in American history? Or do you see it all as similar to Vietnam?
I suppose that back then you had major problems with race relations, Martin Luther King, civil unrest and the repressive Hoover with his spy network. Now you have strong religious, right-wing influence in politics which is another angle.
Funny, though, as this religious trend has been lurking around for some time. When John Lennon said he felt more popular than Jesus Christ, Americans went bananas, burning Beatle records on bonfires and boycotting records. The Beatles thought seriously about cancelling their tour. Lennon was dumbfounded over how a simple remark could have caused so much hysteria.
But if you were to say that, in this country, David Beckham was more popular than Jesus Christ, it would be an accurate statement. Football is now the new state religion and, wherever you go, people seem to need something to worship. Football, religion and gladiators are all mass events used to control the masses.

Both war's were instigated to stop one tide (communism) or another (extreme, muslim based fervor). Iraq also is a key strategic location, which; by the way, was funding-through SH's edict's-suicide bomber's in Israel. This war is not over yet. Some even predict that it can be lost.