Was given cheap frame with Shimano 600 components. Help.



Thanks, kdelong, for all of your advice. You've been a big help. I am about 6'3" with a 34" inseam. Obviously, I've never had a bike custom-fitted for me, but according to this link (http://www.cyclemetrics.com/Pages/Docs/6-BikeFitting/LemondSystem/fit_formulas.htm) I figure I need a 58 or 59 cm frame. I've decided to forego the Atala frame, but I'm looking at an SR frame that was made by Tange, and is chrome molybdenum steel. First, can you comment on the frame. I will post some pics. I would also like to know what measurements I need to ask for in order to find out if my current components will fit this frame. I will post the description and pics. They are asking $200. Also, the seller says that the frame size is 56 cm, but that's apparently from the crank center to top tube center, not to the seat post top. Isn't the measurement of a frame from the crank center to the top of the seat post? And if so, wouldn't that make this frame around 58 or 59 cm? Thanks again.

Dan

Description:

1980s SR Pro AM #2, All tange Chromoly Tubing,
56CM center to center , 55CM center to center on the top tube
Araya alloy 700C wheels with
12 speed, front suntour derailer and rear TQ brand
Cut off sakae champion bars, new blue and white tape.
one back brake, ngc 400
Black velo saddle
Sr Seat post.


Overall good condition, great Light weight street rider.
 
geickel said:
Or this one? ( Columbus Cromo Miele Road Bike Frame 58cm - eBay (item 290411629520 end time Apr-08-10 08:15:30 PDT) ) The seller is asking $250 (dropped from $300) for just the tube and a set of Bianchi forks...is it worth it, and would it work? And which frame would be better, this or the Tange?

Dan
I would opt for the Miele. It was one of the better bicycles from the 80's. Tange and Columbus are equally good. It is sort of like comparing Mercedes and BMW, they are both great. Columbus was around long before Tange though, if it makes any difference to you.

SR, Sakae Ringyo, is much better known for their cranksets, handlebars, stems, and seatposts, not for frames. The two things that give me pause about this frame is the odd shift lever mount and the bolt on rear derailluer hanger.

Your components will fit either of these frames. Nearly all of the frame tubes used on steel bicycles of the 70's, 80's, and early 90's used the same size tubing. It wasn't until Cannondale came out with their oversized aluminum tubes that there was any real concern about whether or not the parts will fit. All of the Ross components, including the bottom bracket and head set should work well in the Miele. You may need to get the help of a bicycle shop to remove the fixed cup of the bottom bracket from the Ross and install it on the Miele. The same is true concerning the headseat bearing cups and the bottom headset bearing race as this is usually press fit on the steerer tube.

There is one other thing that I just noticed. The Miele has a brazed on front derailluer hanger and your FD is a clamp on, so you would either have to remove the braze on with a Dremel cut off disc and smoothed with a grinder or you can buy an FD that uses a braze on mount instead of the clamp. By the way, most higher end frames still use a braze on FD instead of the clamp.

Anyway, good luck and have fun. Whichever way you go, we will all be waiting to see photos of the finished bike!
 
kdelong said:
I would opt for the Miele. It was one of the better bicycles from the 80's. Tange and Columbus are equally good. It is sort of like comparing Mercedes and BMW, they are both great. Columbus was around long before Tange though, if it makes any difference to you.

SR, Sakae Ringyo, is much better known for their cranksets, handlebars, stems, and seatposts, not for frames. The two things that give me pause about this frame is the odd shift lever mount and the bolt on rear derailluer hanger.

Your components will fit either of these frames. Nearly all of the frame tubes used on steel bicycles of the 70's, 80's, and early 90's used the same size tubing. It wasn't until Cannondale came out with their oversized aluminum tubes that there was any real concern about whether or not the parts will fit. All of the Ross components, including the bottom bracket and head set should work well in the Miele. You may need to get the help of a bicycle shop to remove the fixed cup of the bottom bracket from the Ross and install it on the Miele. The same is true concerning the headseat bearing cups and the bottom headset bearing race as this is usually press fit on the steerer tube.

There is one other thing that I just noticed. The Miele has a brazed on front derailluer hanger and your FD is a clamp on, so you would either have to remove the braze on with a Dremel cut off disc and smoothed with a grinder or you can buy an FD that uses a braze on mount instead of the clamp. By the way, most higher end frames still use a braze on FD instead of the clamp.

Anyway, good luck and have fun. Whichever way you go, we will all be waiting to see photos of the finished bike!

THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH!!! I know I'll have more questions, but thanks for everything so far. You guys have been such a HUGE help.

Dan
 
A couple more questions about the frame. Does a 58-59 cm size seem about right if I'm 6'3" with a 34" inseam? Are the bianchi forks good forks?

Dan
 
geickel said:
A couple more questions about the frame. Does a 58-59 cm size seem about right if I'm 6'3" with a 34" inseam? Are the bianchi forks good forks?

Dan
At 6'3", 58-59 cm is acceptable to the low side. You can raise the seatpost up enough to get the right seat height. The stem from your Ross looks to be a longer reach than some, so it will probably work too.

Bianchi is an older and much respected Italian bicycle manufacturer. None of thier products were junk and there is no history of bad forks from them that I know of, so I would trust them on one of my builds.
 
geickel said:
A couple more questions about the frame. Does a 58-59 cm size seem about right if I'm 6'3" with a 34" inseam? Are the bianchi forks good forks?

Dan

Its in the ball park Dan, you may need a longer stem.
 
Hey guys,
I found this thread, and wanted to say thanks for all the great info. I just got a classic Univega chrome moly road bike with Shimano 600 components a few days ago. I'll be tearing it down and building it back up in the next few days/weeks. I'm fairly new to this sort of thing, but I might be able to help as a reference, as the parts are so similar. If everything is in good shape, I'll keep it the way it is. If not, I'm gonna make it into a single speed.
 
bharring said:
Hey guys,
I found this thread, and wanted to say thanks for all the great info. I just got a classic Univega chrome moly road bike with Shimano 600 components a few days ago. I'll be tearing it down and building it back up in the next few days/weeks. I'm fairly new to this sort of thing, but I might be able to help as a reference, as the parts are so similar. If everything is in good shape, I'll keep it the way it is. If not, I'm gonna make it into a single speed.
I have a classic Univega that currently has Shimano 600 components on it. They are of the last 600 version right before Shimano re-designated them Ultegra. The look and perform just like the first Ultegra group. Even the brakes are Dual Pivot. The only thing that bothers me is that the rubber boots on the brake hoods are nearly impossible to find so I am paranoid of damaging the existing ones. Sort of ruins the mood of the ride a little.
 
kdelong said:
I have a classic Univega that currently has Shimano 600 components on it. They are of the last 600 version right before Shimano re-designated them Ultegra. The look and perform just like the first Ultegra group. Even the brakes are Dual Pivot. The only thing that bothers me is that the rubber boots on the brake hoods are nearly impossible to find so I am paranoid of damaging the existing ones. Sort of ruins the mood of the ride a little.

Hey, I'm looking at New-Old-Stock Shimano EX components. I was wondering if you could post some pics of your components. The ones I am looking at are from the mid 80's era, and all have different letters at the beginning of the model number, but end in "-6207" or "-6208". Also, I can't tell about the Meili frame how the shift levers would connect...can you help with that? Thanks again.
 
geickel said:
Hey, I'm looking at New-Old-Stock Shimano EX components. I was wondering if you could post some pics of your components. The ones I am looking at are from the mid 80's era, and all have different letters at the beginning of the model number, but end in "-6207" or "-6208". Also, I can't tell about the Meili frame how the shift levers would connect...can you help with that? Thanks again.

Shimano 600 EX, that is.
 
I am trying to find a braze-on 600 ex front derailleur, but all I am finding are clamp-ons, or are they specifically made for either...I'm confused. Same with the rear derailleur. What are the different ways that the derailleurs connect to the frame, and are there different "braze-on" and "clamp-on" components, or does it just have to do with the frame? Thanks.
 
Also, is it true that the teeth in the SIS shift levers break? Should I go with friction shifting instead?
 
I'll post some photos of my components next week. The Univega is in storage right now but is next on my list for a Spring Tune-up. When I get it home and cleaned up, I'll take some photos. They are not the same as yours, they are more recent manufactured after Shimano dropped the EX and DX suffixes from their model numbers.

Concerning the shifters, look on the Miele's frame on the down tube about 3 or 4 inches from the head tube. There is what appears to be a black dot. That is actually the shifter boss. It is brazed on and there is another on the other side of the tube. You can remove the shifters from the clamp and replace them on the brazed on boss. The bosses from that era were identical across all manufacturers so you don't need to worry about comaptability. What you will need to do is remove the screw that is holding the shift lever on the left side of the clamp assembly. Very carefully remove the shift lever along with any spacers, friction plates, and spring washers from the clamp. Remember the order in which these parts came off as you will be putting them on the left boss on the frame, and if you mess up the order, the lever will not work correctly. Repeat with the right shift lever.

I have never had teeth break on any of my Shimano SIS Shift Levers. The only ones with teeth are the ratcheting front derailleur shifters. I suppose that they may wear out after many tens of thousands of shifts but I have never had them break. Anyway, the early SIS shift levers have a selector that allows you to switch from SIS to friction.

New-Old-Stock is great when you can find it. I was given an early set of NOS Shimano Dura Ace parts from a freind who was cleaning out her deceased husband's bike shop. These were 1970's components with the RD being labelled as a Crane rather than Dura Ace, but all the other parts were labelled DA. The hubs have the little spring covers on them that cover an oil hole. Back in the day, racing hubs were often lubed with a light oil injected into the bearings just before the race started. The theory behind this was that the rider would not have to work as hard pushing the bearings through oil rahter than thicker grease and thus would ride faster. I don't know if this really made a difference but apparently they thought it did. Anyway, I am sort of on the lookout for a 1970' vintage Japanese frame to build up using these components except for the brakes. I will be using a set of 600EX Brakes because they are way superior to the ancient DA brakes.

There are three ways that the RD is mounted to the frame. On pre-1980's bicycles and on less expensive modern bikes, you will often find a bracket that slips over the rear wheel axle on the outside of the dropout. The RD scews into this bracket. In the 1980's and extending into the 2000's, the rear drop out forgings were made with an integral deraillier hanger. There is an excellent photo of one in the group of photos that you had on your post about the Atala frame. Modern frames have moved to a RD hanger that is positioned in the same place as the integral DR hanger forged on the rear drop out, but it is held into a milled recess in the frame by a couple of screws. If you look closely at the Mielle, you will notice a little piece extending from the right rear dropout, that is the RD hanger. RD's are not classified as braze on or clamp on because they can be used either way.

As for the front derailluer, a braze on FD can be fitted into a clamp, but a clamp on FD cannot be used as a braze on. Braze on FD's from the 1980's are rare and found on only very high end bicycles. To find a braze on, you might have to go to your LBS and have them order one for you. Unfortunately it will not be a Shimano 600 EX but they can probably get you a nice Ultegra. Just have them check for compatability before you place an order. By the way, a when we are talking about a braze on front derailluer, it means that there is a little tab that is brazed on the frame of the bicycle and the FD bolts onto that little tab. If I were you, I would just use a Dremel Tool precision grinder with a cut off wheel and cut the tab off. You then can use the same Dremel Tool with a grinding attachment to smooth out the area where you cut off the tab. Prime the area where you cut and ground and paint it, then use your clamp on FD.
 
kdelong said:
I'll post some photos of my components next week. The Univega is in storage right now but is next on my list for a Spring Tune-up. When I get it home and cleaned up, I'll take some photos. They are not the same as yours, they are more recent manufactured after Shimano dropped the EX and DX suffixes from their model numbers.

Are your components Ultegra then? From my research, I think I am finding that
Shimano introduced SIS into the 600 series in 1986. I've found a rear derailleur (SIS), front derailleur, brake levers and calipers, crank set, bottom bracket, Biopace chain wheel, uniglide freewheel, shift levers...all 600 EX NOS,all 1982 or later. According to my research, the 6207 series came about in 1982, and the 6208 in 1986 along with SIS. I am seriously thinking about buying these and building onto the Meile frame, rather than using my old components. Is that a stupid idea? Should I just either use the ones on the Ross or buy newer components. There is something intriguing about the older ones that makes want to experience the more primitive bike...or I could buy newer components...or old dura ace...whada ya think? I'll have a hard time buying this frame and then cutting the tab off. Can I replace it later? Thanks for all the info. You have been very patient and very helpful and informative, kdelong.
 
kdelong said:
As for the front derailluer, a braze on FD can be fitted into a clamp, but a clamp on FD cannot be used as a braze on. Braze on FD's from the 1980's are rare and found on only very high end bicycles. To find a braze on, you might have to go to your LBS and have them order one for you. Unfortunately it will not be a Shimano 600 EX but they can probably get you a nice Ultegra. Just have them check for compatability before you place an order. By the way, a when we are talking about a braze on front derailluer, it means that there is a little tab that is brazed on the frame of the bicycle and the FD bolts onto that little tab. If I were you, I would just use a Dremel Tool precision grinder with a cut off wheel and cut the tab off. You then can use the same Dremel Tool with a grinding attachment to smooth out the area where you cut off the tab. Prime the area where you cut and ground and paint it, then use your clamp on FD.

I'm confused about this. I found an NOS 6207 front derailleur. The heading specifically says "braze on". I've written the seller to have them clarify. I read in another forum that Shimano made a lot of FDs that just had a clamp included with them, but were really braze on. Look at these pics and tell me what you think: NOS NIB Shimano 600 EX 6207 braze on front derailleur - eBay (item 220571562092 end time Apr-12-10 18:37:58 PDT)

You'll have to scroll down to see them.
 
geickel said:
I'm confused about this. I found an NOS 6207 front derailleur. The heading specifically says "braze on". I've written the seller to have them clarify. I read in another forum that Shimano made a lot of FDs that just had a clamp included with them, but were really braze on. Look at these pics and tell me what you think: NOS NIB Shimano 600 EX 6207 braze on front derailleur - eBay (item 220571562092 end time Apr-12-10 18:37:58 PDT)

You'll have to scroll down to see them.
That FD is exactly the type that you need so that you will not have to do any frame alterations. It is true that Shimano had a clamp that can be used with braze on derailluers for use if the bike did not have the brazed on tab.

You will get better performance if you get the NOS 600EX components and build up your bike with them. The only problem that you might have with the 600EX concerns your rear wheel hub. Your current hub has a threaded on 5 speed freewheel. The 600EX components were designed for either a 7 or 8 speed cassette on a freehub. You will need to research and find out which it is for your RD. Then you will either have to get a hub and cassette that is correct for your RD and get that laced to your existing rim or get an entire new wheel that is compatable.

Concerning the components on the Univega, they are 1993 vintage Shimano 600. They look almost identical to the 1994 Ultegra but they are clearly labelled as 600. By the way, my rear derailluer is designed for the 8-speed cassette.
 
kdelong said:
The only problem that you might have with the 600EX concerns your rear wheel hub. Your current hub has a threaded on 5 speed freewheel. The 600EX components were designed for either a 7 or 8 speed cassette on a freehub. You will need to research and find out which it is for your RD. Then you will either have to get a hub and cassette that is correct for your RD and get that laced to your existing rim or get an entire new wheel that is compatable.

My current hub has a threaded on 6-speed uniglide freewheel. Does that make a difference as far as compatability goes? Also, how is the stem measured? Thanks.

Dan
 
Hey Guys,
Just wanted to update you on the status of my build. After lots of research (and drooling over the possibilities), I decided to scrap the Shimano 600 Arabesque parts (well, not really...I'm trading them with the Ross frame for services and parts) and build a bike from the Miele frame with Bianchi forks I posted about back at the end of page 2/beginning of page 3. I am going with NOS or like new Shimano 600EX 6207/6208 series components. I found a local guy who has a shop in a hangar on an airfield who has been in the bike business (as well as the airplane-building business) for 40 years or so. It took one visit to a "corporate" bicycle store chain to know that wasn't the service or people I like to deal with. This guy literally spent 4 hours chatting with me and talking about my bike and components and bicycle history, etc...and he didn't charge me a thing. WOW!! I was blown away! I didn't know they made people like that anymore. Anyways, tangent aside, I have learned so much more through this process of building a bike...way more than I ever would have walking in and buying one off the showroom floor...and the bike is going to be a thing of beauty! I should have most of it done by the beginning of next week. The pedals, front derailleur and shift levers are still a week or so out. Also, I've decided to go with a Brooks B-17 aged saddle and Brooks handlebar leather tape. Those will come later, as my budget allows. I'm so excited to get it finished and show you. I will be posting pics in the next week or so. Thanks again to everyone for your help and advice. You have been most gracious. I still have a couple of questions left. I am using the seat post, stem, handlebars, and wheels from the Ross frame for now. Can you give me advice on good components (seat post, stem, and handlebars) from the early-to-mid-80's era? Also, can you give me brand recommendations on good 27" rims?

Psst...kdelong, where are those pics you promised?? And by the way, to set the record straight and complete, my Arabesque rear hub has a freehub with a six-speed cassette - 12-13-16-18-21-24; and according to my research, the RD-6208 I have purchased will work with a six-speed cassette. Thank you most of all for your help and advice. It has been priceless.

Dan
 
As far as rebuilding and maintenance, I suggest that you invest $20 - $30 in a good bicycle maintenance and repair manual.