Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> Mozz wrote:
>>>>Geological Evidence Against the Occurence
>>>>Worldwide Flood
>>>>
>>>>This deluge had it really happened would have left
>>>>behind unmistakabl=
e
>>>>evidence of its occurrence. While geological records
>>>>show that there had been epochs when some of the earth's
>>>>surface now covered by land was covered by water and
>>>>vice versa. This flooding and drying happene=
d
>>>>repeatedly in many places at different times. However
>>>>there is no evidence whatsoever of a worldwide flood as
>>>>recorded in the book of Genesis.
>>>>
>>>>In fact some of the evidence against the actual
>>>>occurrence of a worldwide flood was already known more
>>>>than a hundred years ago. The man who bought forward one
>>>>such evidence was the one considered to be=
>>>>the father of modern geology, Charles Lyell (1797-1897).
>>>>In his 1863 book, The Geological Evidences for the
>>>>Antiquity of Man, he noted tha=
t
>>>>the extinct volcanoes of France in the Auvergne district
>>>>were compose=
d
>>>>of loose ashes. The volcanoes had been extinct for a
>>>>long time, certainly longer than the purported time of
>>>>the biblical flood.
>>>
>>>According to what kind of dating?
>>
>>"The localized flood that was the source of the layer of
>>sediment in the middle east about the time of Noah was
>>roughly 2450 B.C. by our current calendar."
>>
> Last I checked the year 2450 B.C. was not given in the
> Holy Bible as th=
e year of the
> Flood.
No, it wasn't because they didn't use the gregorian
calendar, but=20 Chung already knew that. Here's a chart
from Josephus to show the dating:=
Patriarch Years before son's birth
=09
Adam 130 Seth 105 Enos 90 Cainan 70 Maleleel 65 Jared
62 Enoch 65 Mathusela 187 Lamech 182 Noah 600 To the
Deluge-1556
-----------------------------
In the calculations of Bishop Ussher, he dated the arrival
of Abraham=20 in Canaan to 2126 BCE and the Noahic flood at
2349 BCE. The latter is=20 unlikely, because historical
records in China and Egypt continued=20 without disruption
through that date, and contain no record of a=20 massive world-
wide flood that would have wiped out their civilizations.
Josephus, Ussher, and other scholars disagree slightly on
some of=20 their dates. But most agree that a
straightforward reading of the=20 Bible indicates the Deluge
must have taken place in the third=20 millennium before the
birth of Jesus Christ =97 possibly between 2500 BC =
and 2300 BC.
<http://www.users.bigpond.com/rdoolan/flooddate.html>
--------------------------
Here's a Christian web site that has a lot to say about the
flood and=20 why it can't have been global:=20
<http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/localflood.html>
"Psalms 104 directly eliminates any possibility of the flood
being=20 global (see Psalms 104-9 - Does it refer to the
Original Creation or=20 the Flood?). In order to accept a
global flood, you must reject Psalms=20 104 and the
inerrancy of the Bible."
-----------------------
Here's a paper on dating the flood that brings together the
various=20 estimates:
<http://www.stanford.edu/~meehan/donnelly/bibchron.html>
----------------------------
Some questions to ponder: "If, at the time of the flood, the
earth was overpopulated by people=20 with technology for
shipbuilding, why were none of their tools or=20 buildings
mixed with with trilobite or dinosaur fossils? How did
the=20 human population rebound so fast? Geneologies in
Genesis put the Tower=20 of Babel about 110 to 150 years
after the Flood [Gen 10:25, 11:10-19].=20 How did the world
population regrow so fast to make its construction=20 (and
the city around it) possible? Similarly, there would have
been=20 very few people around to build Stonehenge and the
Pyramids, found the=20 Sumarian and Indus Valley
civilizations, populate the Americas, etc."
<http://www.bibeln.ws/BibleExposed/flood.htm>
>>>>Thus he continued: "Had the waters once risen, even for
>>>>a day, so high as to reach the level of the base of one
>>>>of these cones-had there been a=
>>>>single flood fifty or sixty feet in height since the
>>>>last eruption occurred- a great part of the volcanoes
>>>>must have inevitably been swept away"
>>>
>>>Unless the flood occurred *before* the last eruption of
>>>these volcanoe=
s.
>>
>>Unlikely if you take the science seriously.
>>
> Suffice it to say that I know the science.
Not in evidence given the rest of the post here.
>>>>Today the geological (and historical) evidence for the
>>>>non-occurrence=
>>>>of a worldwide flood is simply overwhelming. Ian Plimer,
>>>>Professor of=
>>>>Geology at the University of Melbourne, gave a thorough
>>>>listing of these. We will give two examples of the
>>>>evidence cited by Professor Plimer:
>>>>
>>>>The first concerns the sequence of the sedimentary
>>>>deposits. There ar=
e
>>>>two kinds of sediments: high energy and low energy
>>>>sediment. Based on=
>>>>simple laboratory tests and field observations of actual
>>>>floods, it can be shown that high energy sediments, such
>>>>as gravel, are deposite=
d
>>>>during the height of floods. Low energy sediments, such
>>>>as siltstone,=
>>>>mudstone and claystone, are deposited during the waning
>>>>of the floods=
=2E
>>>>Thus if there is a worldwide flood we would expect that
>>>>there would b=
e
>>>>a uniform worldwide sedimentary formation with the high
>>>>energy sediments (ancient gravel, sands) at the bottom
>>>>and the low energy sediments at the top. Yet this is not
>>>>seen on anything close to a global scale. As Professor
>>>>Plimer pointed out, if this is to be seen on a global
>>>>scale, oilfield geologists would have an easy job since
>>>>all sedimentary formation would invariably have
>>>>sandstone at the bottom and siltstones, mudstones and
>>>>claystones at the top!
>>>>
>>>
>>>This probably would have been the case if there were no
>>>movement of te=
ctonic plates
>>>with the associated earthquakes, tidal waves and volcanic
>>>eruptions.
>>
>>"Start with no evidence in the 4000 to 5000 years ago
>>period of large-scale flooding outside a limited area in
>>the middle east where the Sumerians and Babylonians lived
>>(both of whom had flood legends much more detailed than
>>the biblical one, and earlier).
>=20
> Ok, so the Flood may predate 4000 to 5000 years ago.
The bible says 1556. Even though the dating is rather
unreliable, it=20 still falls within the 4000 to 5000 year-
ago range.
>>Continue through the fact that tectonic plates haven't
>>moved very much in 5000 years - inches.
>=20
> Ok, so the Flood may have happened much longer than 5000
> years ago.
The bible says 1656. Even though the dating is rather
unreliable, it=20 still falls within the 4000 to 5000 year-
ago range.
>>Factor in that tidal waves only happen at coasts and that
>>volcanic eruptions occur in very specific locations around
>>the world, usually at the edges of plates. The data all
>>falls together to say there was no global flood...
>>
> ... in the past 5000 years.
The bible says 1656. Even though the dating is rather
unreliable, it=20 still falls within the 4000 to 5000 year-
ago range.
>>Forget that idea of no proof to the contrary, that's
>>demonstrably incorrect, as I've posted recently with solid
>>sources. There's an enormous body of proof."
>>
> There remains no proof that the Flood *never* happened.
This deluge had it really happened would have left behind
unmistakable=20 evidence of its occurrence. There remains no
proof that the man in the=20 moon likes green cheese.
There is enormous proof that there has been no flood within
the span=20 of time covered in the generations listed in the
bible. If it happened=20 before the genealogy dating from
Adam, it makes the bible untrue. If=20 it is reported to
have happened since, it makes the bible untrue.
>>>>The second concerns the evidence of the environment of
>>>>the sediments during its time of deposition. Chemical
>>>>and fossil evidence shows tha=
t
>>>>some sedimentary rocks were formed in freshwater
>>>>environments while others were formed in a saline (salty-
>>>>seawater) environment. Clearly the waters that was sent
>>>>by God during the deluge was either fresh or=
>>>>saline; it couldn=92t be both!
>>>>
>>>The local water environment where the sediments formed
>>>during *the* fl=
ood certainly
>>>could have been either or both. It was not as if the
>>>earth was comple=
tely dry
>>>(oceanless) before the deluge.
>>
>>"If the earth were completely covered for a year, waters
>>would have arrived at a stable, general salinity by
>>convection.
>=20
> Perhaps in a year.
There's no reason to believe that it would take a year given
that=20 constant rain would fall everywhere and dilute
whatever it fell on as=20 it fell. Stream, lake, sea.
The bible says the earth was covered with water to a depth
of 15=20 cubits above the highest hills. The rain began in
the second month of=20 Noah's six hundredth year. The flood
ended in the second month of=20 Noah's six hundred and first
year. That looks like a year.
>>The bible talks about rain for 40 days.
>=20
> Which is not a year.
Duh. But the flood ostensibly persisted well beyond the
rainfall. One=20 reference is to 150 days. Another dates it
as a year.
>>Rain is fresh water.
> Yes it is.
>=20
>>Freshwater streams would become as salty as the average.
>=20
> There would be no streams during the Flood.
Another duh. Whatever streams there were would be altered
before being=20 swept away in a general flood. Just like in
all floods on all the=20 earth. The point is that there
would be no freshwater deposition of=20 sediment because the
salt and fresh water would have mixed.
>>Oceans would become as salty as the average.
>=20
> There would be no oceans either.
There would be one big ocean.
>>Given that the unconnected and discrete sediments are not
>>to some average, it means that the water from which the
>>sediments were deposited weren't at a stable salt level.
>=20
> Probably because they did not have enough time to
> equilibrate. Accordi=
ng to the Holy
> Bible, the waters receded nearly as quickly as they came.
Not according to the dating in KJV it didn't. That would
have to be a=20 total of 80 days. That's about half of the
time directly described in=20 Genesis. And a quarter of the
time spent on the Ark. See above for timing=
=2E
>>So no global water covering...
>>
> ...for a year.
Non sequitur. But it was a year.
>>The other fact is that sediments are not continuous.
>=20
> Sedimentation should not be continuous for uneven terrain.
> Sediments a=
re denser than
> water so they will settle from high points to low points.
> Mountains ar=
e simply not going
> to have much if any sedimentation. After all, rainwater is
> clean (no s=
ediments).
>=20
>>That is, there isn't a constant placement of sediment
>>worldwide. There are pockets of sedimentation, but only
>>pockets.
>=20
> For uneven terrain, those pockets will be the regional low
> points of th=
e terrain.
They don't exist. There are no sedimentations in "regional
low points=20 of the terrain" that substantiate a general
flood. There are only=20 localized examples and they're not
very large. They're not like each=20 other. They don't share
characteristics. They don't share dates of=20 formation.
>>There is no reasonable geological explanation *for* a
>>flood
>=20
> Actually there is: God.
Perhaps the word "geological" was invisible?
>>and a great deal of proof *against* the flood.
>>
> I do not discern one proof here much less a great deal
> of proof.
What a surprise.
>>The fact of continuing societies that began before the
>>dating of the flood and continued through it also means it
>>wasn't global. China. Egypt."
>=20
> The fact is it is written in the Holy Bible that the Flood
> happened *be=
fore* the
> development of different societies (with different
> languages).
It happened before the people in that small tribe increased
in numbers=20 and dispersed. Chinese record-keeping predates
the writing of the=20 bible by anywhere from 1500 to 4000
years depending on the source.=20 Likewise Egyptian society.
Um, I wonder how many of the sons of Noah were black. Or
had=20 epicanthic flaps. Or lived in Australia. Where,
exactly did they find=20 all those wives mentioned in
Genesis? And who populated the cities=20 they built in just
a few generations? Does that mean that there were=20 others
alive around them? Or did God do another creation of humans
not=20 accounted for?
The contradictions between a literal interpretation of the
Genesis=20 stories and the mtEve idea makes the dating in
the bible simply absurd=20 if that fit is propounded.
> God informs from Genesis 10:
>=20
> 1 This is the account of Shem, Ham and Japheth,
> Noah's sons, who t=
hemselves had sons
> after the flood. The Japhethites 2 The sons of Japheth:
> Gomer, Magog, =
Madai, Javan,
> Tubal, Meshech and Tiras. 3 The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz,
> Riphath and=
Togarmah. 4 The
> sons of Javan: Elishah, Tarshish, the Kittim and the
> Rodanim. 5 (From=
these the
> maritime peoples spread out into their territories by
> their clans withi=
n their nations,
> each with its own language.)
>=20
>>Indisputable rational empirical thinking from Bob that you
>>cannot refute Andrew.
>=20
> Seems I have been able to refute neighbor Bob's
> protestations with God'=
s help
Not a bit of it. The "refutations" consist of wordplay and
semantic=20 evasions. No science. No evidence. No substance.
Merely=20 unsubstantiated contradiction.
> For more examples of Bob's irrational thinking:
>=20
>
http://www.heartmdphd.com/libel.asp
<LOL> Now the truth is irrational...
>>Here's another slice of 'truth' for you to contemplate -
>>
>>Noah's Ark: An Engineering Imposibility
>=20 20
> The Universe: The True Engineering Impossibility.
>=20
>>Actually the story of Genesis is, even at first glance,
>>absurd. First let us look at the ark built by Noah.
>>Genesis 6:15 gives its measurements as 300 cubits long, 50
>>cubits wide and 30 cubits high. The length of the cubit is
>>based on the length of the human forearm and varies among
>>the various ancient cultures. For instance, the Babylonian
>>cubit was approximately 0.53 metres, the Roman cubit was
>>about 0.44 metres while the Hebrew cubit was about 0.56
>>metres. Using the Hebrew cubit the ark would have measured
>>168 metres long, 28 metres wide and 17 metres high. There
>>are two problems with this ark as described: it is both
>>too big and too small at the same time.
>>
>>It is too big, because before the invention of steel, the
>>wooden ark of Noah simply could not have been structurally
>>sound and was thus unseaworthy.
>=20
> Who knows what is possible with the help of the Creator of
> the universe=
?
Right. Noah and his boys with no engineering background
build the=20 largest wooden ship ever constructed in a land
of small trees. With=20 primitive hand tools. Didn't anybody
notice what they were doing? A=20 ship so large as to
clearly violate the limits of possibility and=20 violate the
physical constraints on the kind of ship they constructed.
And the answer is, "Who knows? Must have been a miracle."
I'm sure=20 they used Occam's Razor to shape their timbers.
>>The longest wooden ship ever built (i.e. historically
>>verified) was the USS Wyoming. This vessel, which was, at
>>110 meters long, a full 50% shorter than Noah=92s ark, was
>>found to be so unstable=
>>that it could only be used for short coastal hauls to
>>avoid rough conditions further out in the sea. The huge
>>structural stresses that developed in the USS Wyoming made
>>the ship sag and, well, it leaked. Water thus had to be
>>pumped out continuously to prevent the ship from sinking.
>=20
> Sounds like they needs God's help here.
>=20
>>Now, here we have Noah=92s ark, built with wood, before
>>the invention of steel and hydraulic pumps, undergoing the
>>turbulent conditions of the flood unscathed. It is simply
>>an engineering impossibility.
>=20
> Sounds like a miracle to me.
And this is "evidence" or "truth" or "explanation?"
>>It is too small, because there is simply not enough room
>>for all the animals. There are extant today over 4,500
>>species of mammals, 6,000 species of reptiles, 8,600
>>species of birds and 3,000 species of amphibians. Each of
>>these have many large members: elephants, camels,
>>rhinoceros, hippopotamasus, giraffes, horses, donkeys,
>>zebras, cattle, bison, tapirs, pigs, tigers, lions,
>>jaguars, panthers, sea lions, walruses, crocodiles,
>>alligators, giant turtles, Komodo dragon, snakes,
>>ostriches, emus, falcons and giant salamanders. There are
>>23,000 species of fishes, many of which will not be able
>>to survive the flood if not taken up into the ark.
>=20
> Things that swim probably did not need to be in the Ark.
Most things that swim would die because of maladaptation to
salinity=20 levels. The food chain dies because plants all
die in a universal flood.
But the larger question is space. It's too small to hold all
the animals.=
What did the predators eat while on the ark? Did the ark
have freezers=20 to keep meat fresh for a year? What did
they eat afterward if there=20 were only two of each of
their prey animals. Or even if there were 7=20 pairs of
each? And don't forget that Noah sacrificed lots of
critters=20 when they hit land. Save them in a big boat for
a year and then burn=20 them? Thousands of animals killed?
Blood everywhere.
> Someone's been eating colorful mushrooms again.
To stack unexplained and unmentioned miracle on miracle like
that=20 would seem to suggest the necessity of that as a
source of all the=20 thinking involved. *Not* thinking of
the implications is equally=20 likely a sign.
>>Each kilogram of fish require about a cubic meter of water
>>to survive-this is simply to provide enough oxygen and
>>provide space for swimming while sleeping and feeding. The
>>volume of water required for the fishes alone would be
>>larger than the ark.[4] And then there are the little
>>creatures; there are about a million species of insects
>>and 60,000 species of arachnids. How were these species
>>stored in the ark?
>=20
> It is my experience that whenever I try to drown insects,
> I invariably =
fail. They have
> this uncanny ability to hang on to the smallest debris and
> make it into=
a flotation
> device. Perhaps they learned this trick from surviving
> the Flood.
Right. And since this is an utter non sequitur, it's just as
stupid as=20 all the others. Insects have an uncanny
ability. Wow.
What, exactly did these insects eat? Was there a lot of
stuff floating=20 around this inundated world? Maybe dead
animals and people in the=20 billions? How about chunks of
wood and boats? Could lots of other=20 people have floated
up in their boats and survived on the creatures=20 that ate
the carrion floating around? Fishing and spearing aquatic=20
mammals? Were the seas like in the travel brochures for
Hawaii with=20 nothing to mar the surface? How did it smell
with all those billions=20 of dead creatures bloated and
decaying? Did God provide air=20 fresheners? How much manure
did Noah throw overboard?
>>>>>God is the source of the Bible. Though God had many
>>>>>writers, He rem=
ains the
>>>>>ultimate editor. May you someday realize before you die
>>>>>that the Hol=
y Bible is
>>>>>truly God's Word, in Christ's name.
>>>>
>>>>Which part of it do I take as authoritative though
>>>>Andrew???
>>>
>>>The entire Holy Bible.
>>>
>>>>There are so many contradictions and errors of fact!!!
>>>>
>>>Those serve to remind us of our imperfections. They also
>>>serve to inf=
orm us that
>>>God accepts us as we are and indeed loves us as we are.
And that we should accept untruths and shape our lives
accordingly?
>>"The dogma of the infallibility of the Bible is no more
>>self-evident than is that of the infallibility of the
>>popes." Thomas Henry Huxley (1825-1895)
>>
> Clearly someone without the gift of truth discernment
Translation: Doesn't agree with Chung.
All this airy-fairy literalist stuff is all well and good,
but those=20 people in the bible were living-breathing folks
who had their own=20 problems and solutions. And in the
meantime, they had to make their=20 livings and eat enough
to keep alive, clothe themselves and deal with=20 all their
human questions. Did they cook their food on the ark?
What=20 did they burn for fuel? Driftwood? Animal dung? How
did they line=20 stalls for the big animals? Straw? Where
did it come from? How much=20 could they carry on board? How
did they stop it from molding in the=20 very humid air?
Pastorio