Was the workout a "failure"?

[JungleBiker]

Two weeks ago (on a Tuesday) I did 2 x 20mins at threshold (with 5 min rest between); my wattages were:
326 W
332 W
These were higher than the previous week, so I was happy with my wattage.

The following week (i.e. last week) on a Tuesday I repeated the same session but used my MTB and the wattages were down, I think mainly because of the change of bike:
315 W
309 W

Then this week (also on a Tuesday) back on my regular road bike I repeated the workout and my wattages were:
325 W
288 W

My TSB was virtually the same on all days, but I know that other factors are involved (such as other life stresses, sleep, hydration, nutrition, temperature, humidity, etc).

What I'd like to know is, in terms of training to improve my FTP, etc, was the second workout a "failure" (or waste of time) because my performance decreased rather than increased? Or did the workout still contribute to making useful physiological changes in my body (mitochondria, muscle types, etc) that will lead to higher performance in the future (e.g. perhaps after I have tapered)?

I know the workouts contributed to raising my CTL which suggests that my fitness is increasing, but I can't get my head around the declining wattage and whether it means I am doing the wrong thing?

Thanks.
JB.

 

[strader]

I had a similar experience recently. I started doing tabata intervals about 4 weeks out from my first CX race of the season. At first I did them at 500 watts for the work interval (20 secs on, 10 secs rest, 8 reps). After four weeks I was up to 540 watts, and it felt about as hard as when I first started doing them at 500. First race went well, then after a day of rest I found I couldn't finish the last interval at 540 watt (I'm doing them as a programmed workout on a computrainer, so failure means the pedals grind to a halt). So I took another day of rest. Next day I could only manage 4 intervals at 540 watts (half of what I did a week earlier).
I think that first race really took a lot out of me, put me over the edge, so to speak. The next week's race had me finishing in the bottom third, and I'm usually at least in the top half of the field, even on a bad day. So I spent the next week with little intensity, only L2/L3 and one practice day during the week with some race pace efforts (~30 mins worth). Third race of the season I had my best finish yet in the top 20% of the field.
This week I've started over on the Tabata intervals at 500 watts, and it felt pretty easy. I'm hoping to hit some personal best power numbers before the end of the season. Finding the right mix of rest, volume, and intensity is proving to be a challenge.
I guess the point of my rambling post is, you train to get faster. If you're getting slower during hard intervals, you aren't making progress.

 

[Meek One]

At first I did them at 500 watts for the work interval (20 secs on, 10 secs rest, 8 reps). After four weeks I was up to 540 watts

I am a big *****...

 

[JungleBiker]

What I'd like to know is, in terms of training to improve my FTP, etc, was the second workout a "failure" (or waste of time) because my performance decreased rather than increased?

Just want to correct a mistake. I meant to write "was the third workout a failure?" (I attribute the lower wattages in the second workout to the change of bike).

By the way, on Thursdays I have been doing 4 minute intervals and today's wattages were better than the past two weeks!

 

[JungleBiker]

I guess the point of my rambling post is, you train to get faster. If you're getting slower during hard intervals, you aren't making progress.

Hi Strader,

Thanks but I am not totally convinced by your conclusion. I believe I am making progress - witness for example that today I achieved better results for my 4 minute intervals than I did last week. Let's see what others say.

JB.

 

[Alex Simmons]

It sounds like one is trying to chase PBs every week, rather than focus on training for effect. One bad day does not indicate a failure. It just indicates a bad day.

Threshold work is about providing the stimulus to develop your threshold, not about attaining a PB each time. Provided you are consistently able to generate power within the target band, then all is good. If you consistently can't, then it's time for a change, with some recovery being the most likely desired change.

Of course at some stage the power has to go up.

 

[JungleBiker]

It sounds like one is trying to chase PBs every week, rather than focus on training for effect. One bad day does not indicate a failure. It just indicates a bad day.

Threshold work is about providing the stimulus to develop your threshold, not about attaining a PB each time. Provided you are consistently able to generate power within the target band, then all is good. If you consistently can't, then it's time for a change, with some recovery being the most likely desired change.

Of course at some stage the power has to go up.

Hi Alex,

That's just the reply I was hoping for, thanks!

I'd noticed recently you talked about not getting into chasing PBs. I wasn't sure if that applied in my case because if I really wanted to achieve a PB for say 20 minutes, I'd just do one all out 20 minute interval leaving nothing for a second. Rather I was trying to keep in mind what my coach once told me last year when prescribing some 2 x 20s: "try to squeeze out a few more watts".

After receiving the replies to this little flurry of posts by me on two forums as I prepare for an important race on 1 Nov, I am now mentally content with my training and feeling fit and confident.

By the way, I'm looking forward to your next blog update to hear how your thin blue line is progressing!

Thanks again.
JB.

 

[giannip]

It sounds like one is trying to chase PBs every week, rather than focus on training for effect. One bad day does not indicate a failure. It just indicates a bad day.

Threshold work is about providing the stimulus to develop your threshold, not about attaining a PB each time. Provided you are consistently able to generate power within the target band, then all is good. If you consistently can't, then it's time for a change, with some recovery being the most likely desired change.

Of course at some stage the power has to go up.

I would echo that. Last week I tried to my 4min L5 intervals and form the first one I struggled to get my NP even within 10watts of targat wattage. I did my second one and when I realised I was really struggling even with 2min to and my wattage still was lower than the targe I just shut down the workout and eased up for the rest of the week.

This week I did all of them and spot on the target wattage and felt the "easiest" so far.


Friends who train with a HR always ask me how do I know if I'm getting tired / over-trained without using a HR. I thought this experience was the perfect answer to that question

If you can't consistantly do the power, you probably need to ease off a bit.

 

[giannip]

I had a similar experience recently. I started doing tabata intervals about 4 weeks out from my first CX race of the season.

sorry for the hijack

@ what % of FTP are you aiming for during the intervals ?

 

[strader]

sorry for the hijack

@ what % of FTP are you aiming for during the intervals ?

My ftp on the computrainer is probably around 280ish, but I haven't tested for a couple months (saving my best efforts for races):
work interval: 540watts/280watts = 1.9
Average power of session (4 minutes): 364 watts/280 = 1.3

 

[strader]

Although I agree with what everyone is saying, I don't really understand why one would want to do 2x20s if you aren't looking to improve or at least maintain performance week to week. If it's just maintanence or base building (CTL) a hour ride at ~0.9 IF would build more CTL and be easier mentally and physically. I only start throwing 2x20s into the mix when I'm looking to increase FTP several weeks out from a target race, and do them at my FTP wattage or higher.

 

[Alex Simmons]

...I don't really understand why one would want to do 2x20s if you aren't looking to improve or at least maintain performance week to week....

I never said the interval power range shouldn't go up, just that it's not necessary to be chasing aerobic PBs every week in order to improve (indeed it might be counterproductive, depending on how one does it).

 

[doctorSpoc]

Although I agree with what everyone is saying, I don't really understand why one would want to do 2x20s if you aren't looking to improve or at least maintain performance week to week. If it's just maintanence or base building (CTL) a hour ride at ~0.9 IF would build more CTL and be easier mentally and physically. I only start throwing 2x20s into the mix when I'm looking to increase FTP several weeks out from a target race, and do them at my FTP wattage or higher.

as Alex says... as long as you are doing the workout in the prescribed band (105-95% FTP... for me that a 40W band) you are improving and getting benefit from the workout... contrary to popular belief there is almost no difference in adaptation if you are at the very top of the band or the middle somewhere and even the bottom... and the top of the band it hurts like f'n hell and in the middle it merely hurts a lot and at the bottom it merely tingles.. pushing the envelope from time to time is good just to see what you can do and what your limits are and for metal toughness.. but you don't need, every time out of the block to PB in training... it can be physically and mentally taxing and provide almost no more benefit than if you just ratchet it down a bit... the result of chasing PBs in training rather than in races is possible burnout and degradation of workouts down the road. from time to time depending on life or maybe an out of the ordinary workout or just the result of doing a build your performance in workouts can go up and down but as long as you are within that band, you are fine. yes the band itself should, in the long term move up, but as long as you are in your band, you are getting benefit from the workout... if you fall right out of the band you aren't, and it maybe time for a bit of recovery...

bottom line... stop pushing PBs every time out of the blocks in training.. it's training, not racing and it's counter productive... from time to time, if you are feeling good, sure push your self and see what you can do.

 

[bubsy]

Although I agree with what everyone is saying, I don't really understand why one would want to do 2x20s if you aren't looking to improve or at least maintain performance week to week. If it's just maintanence or base building (CTL) a hour ride at ~0.9 IF would build more CTL and be easier mentally and physically. I only start throwing 2x20s into the mix when I'm looking to increase FTP several weeks out from a target race, and do them at my FTP wattage or higher.

One thing that struck me with this statement is trying to increase FTP several weeks from target event, from what l have leart on this forum is that it takes at least 6wks for noticeable adaption to occur so l would be trying to improve FTP several months from target events and try to increase or maintain V02 & CTL several weeks out, someone please correct me if l have this backwards.

 

[strader]

I do, SST/L4 you name it. Problem is it doesn't budge. I got some pretty good gains in my first 6 months of serious training, then completely stagnant performance despite gradually increasing CTL and monthly FTP/20MMP tests. I didn't start seeing any improvements again until I started shooting for 20 minute PBs every week, and lots of hard intervals.
I know a lot of people here say they see improvement in FTP by just riding SST, or doing 2x20s at 90%. For me that doesn't work.

 

[doctorSpoc]

One thing that struck me with this statement is trying to increase FTP several weeks from target event, from what l have leart on this forum is that it takes at least 6wks for noticeable adaption to occur so l would be trying to improve FTP several months from target events and try to increase or maintain V02 & CTL several weeks out, someone please correct me if l have this backwards.

yeah i agree with this... i'd give myself 6-8 weeks if i was serious about improving FTP...

 

[doctorSpoc]

I do, SST/L4 you name it. Problem is it doesn't budge. I got some pretty good gains in my first 6 months of serious training, then completely stagnant performance despite gradually increasing CTL and monthly FTP/20MMP tests. I didn't start seeing any improvements again until I started shooting for 20 minute PBs every week, and lots of hard intervals.
I know a lot of people here say they see improvement in FTP by just riding SST, or doing 2x20s at 90%. For me that doesn't work.

how are you measuring improvement... in training, in racing, in TTs? if you are looking to see improvement in training you might not see it especially as you build you get more an more worn down and what you can do in practice dips.. it's after you taper that you will reap the rewards of the work you have done... when you are targeting an event you want to maximize CTL and TSB (depending on the event you may want to lean one way or the other) it's at this time you will be able to test what you can really do and if you have improved.. if you are testing during your build unless you have a lot of experience and know what you have historically been able to do give a certain training load you wont really be able to guage improvement.

 

[bubsy]

Yeh l hear ya on the stagnet ft when all l do is sst, all sst does for me at this point in my quest for 5wkg is maintain the gains l have made from really going out and smashing it for 2/3 week blocks. l made the mistake early on in the year where all i was doing was sst and while my weight dropped and ctl went sky high my ft didn't budge, when l went back to higher intensity training things started to progress once again including my sst rides between hard sessions which didn,t increase at all over the 3 mth period that l was only doing sst.
Last 6wks have been 6x8m int session at around 100% of my best 20m power every 5/6 days with some recovery rides and 1 sst ride in between, l prefer not to ride much on recovery days that way l am more motivated for tougher workouts in fact l look forward to them. There have been some slight improvements in power from week to week since the first 8m int but looking back to the first one there has been noticable improvement so l am happy with the result.
I am now exactly 6wks out from my A race that l have focused on all year so now it is all VO2 with some sst to keep CTL high, not sure if l have maxed out VO2 from previous 6wks of high intensity training but feel there is still more l can squeese out in the coming weeks so will be doing 5x6m this week 5x5m week after then some 3-4m sessions closer to race week with a reasonable taper.
Trying different training methods that others have had succsess with is proly the smartest thing one can do when ft becomes stagnet. lifestyle, diet, rest, mental state and anything else one can imagine all impact on adaption and can all change over the course of years, (my diet for instance looks nothing like it did 3yrs ago) which is why as you said what works for you may or may not work for someone else but trying different training methods usually makes a differance one way or another and training with power will determine if the change was worth it or not.

 

[strader]

how are you measuring improvement... in training, in racing, in TTs? if you are looking to see improvement in training you might not see it especially as you build you get more an more worn down and what you can do in practice dips.. it's after you taper that you will reap the rewards of the work you have done....

I've been measuring improvement mainly through two climbs I do which take 20-30 mins each, two road TTs I've done this year, and 60 min tests on the trainer as a last resort. The climbs are my main metric, because they are local and more fun to ride. My target events are mtb and cyclocross, with no power meter on either bike. I beleive Hunter Allen suggests testing at least once a month in the book, and that's about what I do.

when you are targeting an event you want to maximize CTL and TSB (depending on the event you may want to lean one way or the other) it's at this time you will be able to test what you can really do and if you have improved..

The thing is, I have seen PBs this year at 5 mins, 20mins, and 60 mins. Just not after months of SST training. I've seen gains recently when TSB was in the gutter and I was piling on L4/L5/L6. I'll post some more details later on the specific workouts/wattages and performance manager stuff. Thinking back, it seems any performance jumps I've seen have been after a hard block of training.

 

[doctorSpoc]

The thing is, I have seen PBs this year at 5 mins, 20mins, and 60 mins. Just not after months of SST training. I've seen gains recently when TSB was in the gutter and I was piling on L4/L5/L6. I'll post some more details later on the specific workouts/wattages and performance manager stuff. Thinking back, it seems any performance jumps I've seen have been after a hard block of training.

but of course... this is exactly as it would be expected... you do tonnes of Thres stuff and build your engine and then you throw in some VO2max and AC (if you're a road racer) and that adds that icing on you aerobic engine cake.. this is how it works... the more SST and Thres you do the bigger effect you will get when you finally do your VO2max and AC... this is exactly as expected... you need to be confident that you are doing good during the FT work that things will work out as they should after doing ~4weeks of VO2max... you will not see huge gains druing your SST work but it will pay off in the end...