Wear that Helmet II .. or not

[Ozark Bicycle]

On May 15, 1:21 pm, SMS <[email protected]> wrote:

<snipped>

- on helmets and combating mandatory helmet laws -

> I'm still seeing the "driving helmet" and "walking helmet" logical
> fallacies introduced the helmet debates in areas where the politicians
> are trying to introduce helmet laws. While I think that most of us
> oppose such coercive laws,

I have never known, first hand, a cyclist who favored an *adult*
MHL(Satirical/sarcastic comments excepted).


> when the AHZ's use these fallacies, for all
> intents and purposes they have lost the debate.


Exactly! *No one* takes a nutball or their nutball "arguments"
seriously.


> It's a personal freedom issue.


Bingo!


No one argues that you're better off wearing a helmet in an
> accident than not wearing a helmet (as the news story above
> demonstrates) but that decision should not be made by politicians.-

 

[Wayne Pein]

SMS wrote:


>
> If not for discredited theories and unscientific studies, the AHZs would
> have no references to post at all.
>
> It's like the claims that helmets reduce the level of cycling. Well in
> some areas bicycle use went up after helmet laws were introduced, and in
> some areas in went down after helmet laws were introduced. In neither
> case was it ever demonstrated that the helmet law had anything to do
> with the increase or decrease. Maybe it did, but there were no
> scientific studies conducted to determine the reason for the increase or
> decrease.
>
> If you want to go strictly be evidence-based studies, read "Bicycle
> helmet legislation for the uptake of helmet use and prevention of head
> injuries" by Macpherson A and Spinks A of the Cochrane Collaboration.
>

According to a review of that study at:
http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005401.html

the studies they included to come to their conclusions did not measure
bicycle use. Sure, head injuries went down, but if bicycle use also went
down...

Wayne

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Tue, 15 May 2007 12:06:10 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>LOL Someone tell France and Russia and Britain and Germany and the CIA and
>the UN's own investigators that they were all wrong and "anyone who knew
>anything about that region" knew it. LOL

You are a moron. Where do you get your news?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

 

[SMS]

Wayne Pein wrote:
> SMS wrote:
>
>
>>
>> If not for discredited theories and unscientific studies, the AHZs
>> would have no references to post at all.
>>
>> It's like the claims that helmets reduce the level of cycling. Well in
>> some areas bicycle use went up after helmet laws were introduced, and
>> in some areas in went down after helmet laws were introduced. In
>> neither case was it ever demonstrated that the helmet law had anything
>> to do with the increase or decrease. Maybe it did, but there were no
>> scientific studies conducted to determine the reason for the increase
>> or decrease.
>>
>> If you want to go strictly be evidence-based studies, read "Bicycle
>> helmet legislation for the uptake of helmet use and prevention of head
>> injuries" by Macpherson A and Spinks A of the Cochrane Collaboration.
>>
>
> According to a review of that study at:
> http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005401.html
>
> the studies they included to come to their conclusions did not measure
> bicycle use. Sure, head injuries went down, but if bicycle use also went
> down...

In the instances where cycling levels were measured before and after the
implantation of a helmet law there has never been a study that
scientifically measured whether the increases or decreases afterward
were related to the law. There's a big difference between causation and
correlation, something that the AHZ's seem to not understand too well.
You have to look at _all_ possible reasons why something occurs, not
grab onto whatever fits your agenda.

 

[A Muzi]

>> MkTm <[email protected]> wrote:>
Truck crushes biker's helmet but not head
>> <snip>
>>> Then again ..
>>> Bike helmets inspire unsafe driving
>> <snip>

> LF <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Helmet wars traditionally occur during the off season. Now's a great
>> time to get on your bike.

[email protected] wrote:
> As has been previously discussed . . . _very_ previously:
>
> "There has been no death in the [1880's Massachusetts bicycling] club,
> no quarrel, no jealousies, no cliques, no close elections. The nearest
> approach to hard feeling was at the annual meeting in 1881, when there
> was a struggle upon the question of head-gear. "Helmet or cap?" The
> vote was 11 to 11, and the president's vote gave the club the blue
> helmet. But a year later, a stormy night,-which kept the old men at
> home,-and the added power and eloquence of the 60-inch man [meaning
> that he rode a very large highwheeler], gave the cap men the victory,
> and the present blue cap (with a visor) was adopted."
>
> "Outing" magazine, 1883
> http://www.aafla.org/SportsLibrary/Outing/Volume_02/outII03/outII03a.pdf

Them cap-wearin' heathens are all _dead_ now, ain't they?
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[_]

On Tue, 15 May 2007 04:09:19 GMT, MkTm wrote:

> Truck crushes biker's helmet but not head
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/14/truck_crushes_bikers.html
> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934
>
> Then again ..
>
> Bike helmets inspire unsafe driving
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/13/bike_helmets_inspire.html

[from uk.rec.cycling, where they seem to be much more informed about cycle
helmets]

On Wed, 16 May 2007 09:51:37 +0100, Colin McKenzie wrote:

> Marc Brett wrote:
>
>> For all you doubting-Thomases who think helmets don't work in real-world
>> collisions with vehicles.
>>
>>
>> Bike helmet crushed, but head fine
>> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934
>>
>> A white paneled delivery truck ran over a UW-Madison graduate student's
>> head on Division Street Friday afternoon and, except for a concussion,
>> he wasn't hurt.
>
> A quick google reveals:
> <http://www.reporter-times.com/?module=displaystory&story_id=29691&format=html>
>
> ...a similar incident involving an 11-year-old and no helmet.
> Children's skulls are supposed to be weaker than adults'
>

 

[Peter Cole]

MkTm wrote:
> Truck crushes biker's helmet but not head
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/14/truck_crushes_bikers.html
> http://www.madison.com/tct/news/index.php?ntid=133934
>
> Then again ..
>
> Bike helmets inspire unsafe driving
>
> http://www.boingboing.net/2007/05/13/bike_helmets_inspire.html

Violation of rec.bike rules of order -- helmet threads only allowed
during off-season.

 

[Wayne Pein]

SMS wrote:

> Wayne Pein wrote:
>> According to a review of that study at:
>> http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005401.html
>>
>> the studies they included to come to their conclusions did not measure
>> bicycle use. Sure, head injuries went down, but if bicycle use also
>> went down...
>
>
> In the instances where cycling levels were measured before and after the
> implantation of a helmet law there has never been a study that
> scientifically measured whether the increases or decreases afterward
> were related to the law.

Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?

Wayne

 

[Jay Beattie]

On May 16, 9:07 am, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
> SMS wrote:
> > Wayne Pein wrote:
> >> According to a review of that study at:
> >>http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005401.html
>
> >> the studies they included to come to their conclusions did not measure
> >> bicycle use. Sure, head injuries went down, but if bicycle use also
> >> went down...
>
> > In the instances where cycling levels were measured before and after the
> > implantation of a helmet law there has never been a study that
> > scientifically measured whether the increases or decreases afterward
> > were related to the law.
>
> Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
> increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?
>
> Wayne

Here is one:

http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/images/crashrate2004.pdf#search='portland%20bridges%20bicycle%20crash%20rate%5C'

(for some reason, I can't get this to work with TinyURL)

It shows a HUGE increase in ridership in Portland, Oregon after
passage of the MHL in 1994. I also noticed more deer in my yard. Two
of my Blue Diamond Rhododendrons died; my wife got older, and there
was less snow on Mt. Hood this year. My property taxes also went up.
This clearly shows both the negative and positive effects of the MHL.
-- Jay Beattie.

 

[[email protected]]

On 16 May 2007 11:35:31 -0700, Jay Beattie <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On May 16, 9:07 am, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
>> SMS wrote:
>> > Wayne Pein wrote:
>> >> According to a review of that study at:
>> >>http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab005401.html
>>
>> >> the studies they included to come to their conclusions did not measure
>> >> bicycle use. Sure, head injuries went down, but if bicycle use also
>> >> went down...
>>
>> > In the instances where cycling levels were measured before and after the
>> > implantation of a helmet law there has never been a study that
>> > scientifically measured whether the increases or decreases afterward
>> > were related to the law.
>>
>> Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
>> increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?
>>
>> Wayne
>
>Here is one:
>
> http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/images/crashrate2004.pdf#search='portland%20bridges%20bicycle%20crash%20rate%5C'
>
>(for some reason, I can't get this to work with TinyURL)
>
>It shows a HUGE increase in ridership in Portland, Oregon after
>passage of the MHL in 1994. I also noticed more deer in my yard. Two
>of my Blue Diamond Rhododendrons died; my wife got older, and there
>was less snow on Mt. Hood this year. My property taxes also went up.
>This clearly shows both the negative and positive effects of the MHL.
>-- Jay Beattie.

Dear Jay,

Without commenting on statistical interpretations, here's the tiny
url:

http://tinyurl.com/gpfp9

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Wayne Pein]

> On 16 May 2007 11:35:31 -0700, Jay Beattie <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>On May 16, 9:07 am, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:

>>>Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
>>>increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?
>>>
>>>Wayne
>>
>>Here is one:
>>
>>http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/images/crashrate2004.pdf#search='portland%20bridges%20bicycle%20crash%20rate%5C'
>>
>>(for some reason, I can't get this to work with TinyURL)
>>
>>It shows a HUGE increase in ridership in Portland, Oregon after
>>passage of the MHL in 1994. I also noticed more deer in my yard. Two
>>of my Blue Diamond Rhododendrons died; my wife got older, and there
>>was less snow on Mt. Hood this year. My property taxes also went up.
>>This clearly shows both the negative and positive effects of the MHL.
>>-- Jay Beattie.
>

Yes, through my rose-colored glasses I can see how under age 16
bicyclists (those affected by the law) have really taken to the streets.

Wayne

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 17 May 2007 15:31:01 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>
>> On 16 May 2007 11:35:31 -0700, Jay Beattie <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On May 16, 9:07 am, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
>>>>increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?
>>>>
>>>>Wayne
>>>
>>>Here is one:
>>>
>>>http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/images/crashrate2004.pdf#search='portland%20bridges%20bicycle%20crash%20rate%5C'
>>>
>>>(for some reason, I can't get this to work with TinyURL)
>>>
>>>It shows a HUGE increase in ridership in Portland, Oregon after
>>>passage of the MHL in 1994. I also noticed more deer in my yard. Two
>>>of my Blue Diamond Rhododendrons died; my wife got older, and there
>>>was less snow on Mt. Hood this year. My property taxes also went up.
>>>This clearly shows both the negative and positive effects of the MHL.
>>>-- Jay Beattie.
>>
>
>Yes, through my rose-colored glasses I can see how under age 16
>bicyclists (those affected by the law) have really taken to the streets.
>
>Wayne

Dear Wayne & Jay,

Here's a quick graph showing a different view of the same data:

http://i9.tinypic.com/4otix08.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
>> On 16 May 2007 11:35:31 -0700, Jay Beattie <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On May 16, 9:07 am, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>>Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
>>>>increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?
>>>>
>>>>Wayne
>>>
>>>Here is one:
>>>
>>>http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/images/crashrate2004.pdf#search='portland%20bridges%20bicycle%20crash%20rate%5C'
>>>
>>>(for some reason, I can't get this to work with TinyURL)
>>>
>>>It shows a HUGE increase in ridership in Portland, Oregon after
>>>passage of the MHL in 1994. I also noticed more deer in my yard. Two
>>>of my Blue Diamond Rhododendrons died; my wife got older, and there
>>>was less snow on Mt. Hood this year. My property taxes also went up.
>>>This clearly shows both the negative and positive effects of the MHL.
>>>-- Jay Beattie.
>>
>
> Yes, through my rose-colored glasses I can see how under age 16 bicyclists
> (those affected by the law) have really taken to the streets.

They are everywhere! A roving band of sub-16 year olds actually tried to
steal my helmet from me while I was waiting at a light! Helmets now have
the cachet of expensive sneakers, and these kids are wearing helmets all of
the time, especially while walking and bathing -- the two most dangerous
human activities. Helmet wearing has become a problem, though, because
these adolescents are acting recklessly, and car drivers, seeing that they
are helmeted and protected from any and all injury, actually try to run them
over -- particularly large trucks that try to squish their heads (to no
avail). Check this out -- this is an ordinary day in Portland.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/214729003/ Don't tell me kids
aren't riding on the bridges post-MHL! -- Jay Beattie.

 

[catzz66]

Jay Beattie wrote:
>
> They are everywhere! A roving band of sub-16 year olds actually tried to
> steal my helmet from me while I was waiting at a light! Helmets now have
> the cachet of expensive sneakers, and these kids are wearing helmets all of
> the time, especially while walking and bathing -- the two most dangerous
> human activities. Helmet wearing has become a problem, though, because
> these adolescents are acting recklessly, and car drivers, seeing that they
> are helmeted and protected from any and all injury, actually try to run them
> over -- particularly large trucks that try to squish their heads (to no
> avail). Check this out -- this is an ordinary day in Portland.
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bikeportland/214729003/ Don't tell me kids
> aren't riding on the bridges post-MHL! -- Jay Beattie.
>
>
>

Jay, you obviously have a sense of humor and thus do not meet the
minimum requirements for posting to helmet threads here on
rec.bicycles.tech.

 

[Wayne Pein]

Jay Beattie wrote:

> "Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>>>
>>Yes, through my rose-colored glasses I can see how under age 16 bicyclists
>>(those affected by the law) have really taken to the streets.
>
>
> They are everywhere! A roving band of sub-16 year olds actually tried to
> steal my helmet from me while I was waiting at a light! Helmets now have
> the cachet of expensive sneakers, and these kids are wearing helmets all of
> the time, especially while walking and bathing -- the two most dangerous
> human activities.

I hope they take them off while at playgrounds.

Wayne

 

[Wayne Pein]

[email protected] wrote:

>
> Dear Wayne & Jay,
>
> Here's a quick graph showing a different view of the same data:
>
> http://i9.tinypic.com/4otix08.jpg
>

Hmmm, crashes greatly increased the two years following the MHL, then
plummeted. Initial expected idiotic behavior followed by a massive
educational campaign to learn the morons something?

Wayne

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 17 May 2007 14:22:30 -0700, "Jay Beattie"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Wayne Pein" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>>
>>> On 16 May 2007 11:35:31 -0700, Jay Beattie <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On May 16, 9:07 am, Wayne Pein <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>>Can you provide a reference to the study(s) where there was an alleged
>>>>>increase in cycling after a helmet law was implemented?
>>>>>
>>>>>Wayne
>>>>
>>>>Here is one:
>>>>
>>>>http://bikeportland.org/wp-content/images/crashrate2004.pdf#search='portland%20bridges%20bicycle%20crash%20rate%5C'
>>>>
>>>>(for some reason, I can't get this to work with TinyURL)
>>>>
>>>>It shows a HUGE increase in ridership in Portland, Oregon after
>>>>passage of the MHL in 1994. I also noticed more deer in my yard. Two
>>>>of my Blue Diamond Rhododendrons died; my wife got older, and there
>>>>was less snow on Mt. Hood this year. My property taxes also went up.
>>>>This clearly shows both the negative and positive effects of the MHL.
>>>>-- Jay Beattie.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, through my rose-colored glasses I can see how under age 16 bicyclists
>> (those affected by the law) have really taken to the streets.
>
>They are everywhere! A roving band of sub-16 year olds actually tried to
>steal my helmet from me while I was waiting at a light!

[snip]

Dear Jay,

Of course, helmet theft is nothing new.

See the ugly judicial proceedings painted in merciless detail in
"Without the Option," the seventh chapter of "Carry on, Jeeves!"

Or review the more expansive account of such crimes, coupled with
judicial corruption, in "The Code of the Woosters."

Horrifyingly, the perpetrators cannot claim youth as an excuse.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 17 May 2007 17:55:11 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Wayne & Jay,
>>
>> Here's a quick graph showing a different view of the same data:
>>
>> http://i9.tinypic.com/4otix08.jpg
>>
>
>Hmmm, crashes greatly increased the two years following the MHL, then
>plummeted. Initial expected idiotic behavior followed by a massive
>educational campaign to learn the morons something?
>
>Wayne

Dear Wayne,

The usual comment is that all long-term studies of serious bicycle
injuries show a general decline, but rise within the general trend
when helmet use increases significantly.

That is, the general trend in bicycle injury rates is gently downward,
but adding helmets raises the rate.

The downward trend, which appears to have no relation to the use or
non-use of helmets, then resumes its gentle descent from a slightly
higher point.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

 

[Jay Beattie]

On May 17, 3:38 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> On Thu, 17 May 2007 17:55:11 -0400, Wayne Pein <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >[email protected] wrote:
>
> >> Dear Wayne & Jay,
>
> >> Here's a quick graph showing a different view of the same data:
>
> >>http://i9.tinypic.com/4otix08.jpg
>
> >Hmmm, crashes greatly increased the two years following the MHL, then
> >plummeted. Initial expected idiotic behavior followed by a massive
> >educational campaign to learn the morons something?
>
> >Wayne
>
> Dear Wayne,
>
> The usual comment is that all long-term studies of serious bicycle
> injuries show a general decline, but rise within the general trend
> when helmet use increases significantly.
>
> That is, the general trend in bicycle injury rates is gently downward,
> but adding helmets raises the rate.
>
> The downward trend, which appears to have no relation to the use or
> non-use of helmets, then resumes its gentle descent from a slightly
> higher point.

Except in Portland, where we do things our own way -- and note that
according to a recent survey, we have the lowest incidence of road
rage (the most courteous drivers) in the US, which I believe is
related to the MHL. I'm working on a study to prove that. It could
also be due to the large number of micro-breweries or bad weather
(people are happy to be in cars because they are generally dry
inside). Here is the road rage article. My condolences to those
cyclist in Miami. I think all of the bus drivers in Portland are from
Miami. -- Jay Beattie.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/15/road.rage.ap/index.html

 

[Wayne Pein]

Jay Beattie wrote:

>
> Except in Portland, where we do things our own way -- and note that
> according to a recent survey, we have the lowest incidence of road
> rage (the most courteous drivers) in the US, which I believe is
> related to the MHL. I'm working on a study to prove that. It could
> also be due to the large number of micro-breweries or bad weather
> (people are happy to be in cars because they are generally dry
> inside). Here is the road rage article. My condolences to those
> cyclist in Miami. I think all of the bus drivers in Portland are from
> Miami. -- Jay Beattie.
> http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/15/road.rage.ap/index.html
>

It's hard to put much credence in an opinion survey of road rage. Maybe
Miamians just like the prestige of being number 1. Maybe Miamians just
like to complain about others' driving. Maybe Miamians are smart and
want to keep people from moving there. Maybe Portlanders are too wimpy
to admit there is road rage. Maybe Portlanders are smart and want people
to move there.

Wayne