Weekly time in L3/L4 zones ?

[peterwright]

I am currently training 10.5/11 hours per week and including 2 X (2X20) sessions and the rest is as close to L3 tempo work as I can sustain with a hard race each weekend. TSS weekly score is between 550 and 650. I seem to be spending 65-70 mins in L3 per week and around 75-80 mins in L4 per week.

I am certainly feeling the benefits and also feeling quite tired come Friday but would like to get a feel for what others out there are achieveing in terms of %age of weekly minutes in L3 and L4 (mine are around 13 & 14% respectively)

Thanks for any input.

 

[peterwright]

I am currently training 10.5/11 hours per week and including 2 X (2X20) sessions and the rest is as close to L3 tempo work as I can sustain with a hard race each weekend. TSS weekly score is between 550 and 650. I seem to be spending 65-70 mins in L3 per week and around 75-80 mins in L4 per week.

I am certainly feeling the benefits and also feeling quite tired come Friday but would like to get a feel for what others out there are achieveing in terms of %age of weekly minutes in L3 and L4 (mine are around 13 & 14% respectively)

Thanks for any input.

Something else I have just noticed is that on my last 2 L4 20 min interval days, on both occassions I have achieved an AP and NP well into the L4 zone for all the 20 min intervals but, looking at the power graph I have achieved 16 mins in L4 on the first day (out of 40) and 19 in L4 on the second day. There is obviosly a spread into L3 , L5 and L6 that gives me an average of L4 for each interval.

Does this mean I need to try and ride them smoother to ensure more of each interval is in the corect zone ? I am amazed to find so little of each interval is actually in the correct zone..

Anyone got a take on this and is it something you monitor to ensure a 2X20 in L4 is really just that ?

Thanks

Peter

 

[acoggan]

Something else I have just noticed is that on my last 2 L4 20 min interval days, on both occassions I have achieved an AP and NP well into the L4 zone for all the 20 min intervals but, looking at the power graph I have achieved 16 mins in L4 on the first day (out of 40) and 19 in L4 on the second day. There is obviosly a spread into L3 , L5 and L6 that gives me an average of L4 for each interval.

Does this mean I need to try and ride them smoother to ensure more of each interval is in the corect zone ?

No. Except perhaps for during flat TTs, our power is rarely constant when we race - it therefore doesn't make a lot of sense to overly constrain the variability in your effort when training. All that does is make your training less specific.

 

[acoggan]

I am currently training 10.5/11 hours per week and including 2 X (2X20) sessions and the rest is as close to L3 tempo work as I can sustain with a hard race each weekend. TSS weekly score is between 550 and 650. I seem to be spending 65-70 mins in L3 per week and around 75-80 mins in L4 per week.

I am certainly feeling the benefits and also feeling quite tired come Friday but would like to get a feel for what others out there are achieveing in terms of %age of weekly minutes in L3 and L4 (mine are around 13 & 14% respectively)

By "weekly" you mean M-F, with the weekends being more variable due to racing?

In any case, cumulative (or daily average) TSS is probably a better way of describing your overall training load than "time in level", since the latter doesn't account for how much time you spent at a particular power level during each "foray" into it. For example, in a 1 h workout I can spend 30 min in my level 6 by doing 15 s on/off microintervals, but that would actually be a level 4 training session, not a level 6 one.

 

[SolarEnergy]

By "weekly" you mean M-F, with the weekends being more variable due to racing?

In any case, cumulative (or daily average) TSS is probably a better way of describing your overall training load than "time in level", since the latter doesn't account for how much time you spent at a particular power level during each "foray" into it. For example, in a 1 h workout I can spend 30 min in my level 6 by doing 15 s on/off microintervals, but that would actually be a level 4 training session, not a level 6 one.

Do you know of any serious papers that discuss the % distribution per level, of weekly training stress score number?

In other words, did you, or any other specialist, extrapolate a model including how many tss should be spent per level, based on your power-based training levels?

 

[frenchyge]

I am certainly feeling the benefits and also feeling quite tired come Friday but would like to get a feel for what others out there are achieveing in terms of %age of weekly minutes in L3 and L4 (mine are around 13 & 14% respectively)

I'm happy to share, but I don't think it'd be particularly relevant to compare January numbers between a rider in Cape Town and one in Kansas City. You're in the heart of the competition period, right?

FWIW, for the past 3 weeks I'm seeing 8.5-10 hrs/wk, and TSS of 587-650. Past 28 days, my % in L3/4/5 is 17/23/9 (zeroes excluded).

 

[peterwright]

By "weekly" you mean M-F, with the weekends being more variable due to racing?

In any case, cumulative (or daily average) TSS is probably a better way of describing your overall training load than "time in level", since the latter doesn't account for how much time you spent at a particular power level during each "foray" into it. For example, in a 1 h workout I can spend 30 min in my level 6 by doing 15 s on/off microintervals, but that would actually be a level 4 training session, not a level 6 one.

Thanks - I actually included weekends in the "weekly" figures.

I can certainly see why I would use TSS, and as such monitor a 7 and 28 day rolling TSS as a guide to load. I was just trying to get a feel for if I should break this down further in order to make sure I get the most payback for my time invested. If I understand you right I should just ramp up the TSS as best I can until I really start to see a drop off in performance ?

 

[peterwright]

I'm happy to share, but I don't think it'd be particularly relevant to compare January numbers between a rider in Cape Town and one in Kansas City. You're in the heart of the competition period, right?

FWIW, for the past 3 weeks I'm seeing 8.5-10 hrs/wk, and TSS of 587-650. Past 28 days, my % in L3/4/5 is 17/23/9 (zeroes excluded).

Yeah, I am in the early stages of my race season now. My L3/L4/L5 %ages are 16.4/18/9

Seems like you are spending more L4 time than I am - what does your week look like to get that intensity level up to 23% ? I do not understand why my weekly TSS is similar to yours however at around 600 ?

 

[frenchyge]

Yeah, I am in the early stages of my race season now. My L3/L4/L5 %ages are 16.4/18/9

Seems like you are spending more L4 time than I am - what does your week look like to get that intensity level up to 23% ?

Since it's the middle of winter here, much of my time is spent doing intervals on the indoor trainer rather than highly variable outdoor rides.

I do not understand why my weekly TSS is similar to yours however at around 600 ?

You're riding more hours. Also, keep in mind that Coggan's Levels are pretty broad ranges. All L4 minutes are not created equal in terms of TSS produced.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Peter, do you have an idea how many minutes you are getting in L4-L6, with the added constraint that the only minutes that are counted are those that are part of an interval at that level as defined by Dr. Coggan's schema? I realize this is not a stat you can easily pull out of CP (although I am working on something now related to matches that I can easily convert for that purpose), but I'm just wondering how much total time you estimate you are doing now -- you already mentioned that you get ~80 mins/wk due to your 4x20s. Do you do any L5s or L6s? Thanks. FYI, my target is a minimum of 180mins/wk by this definition and as I approach race season it will gradually increase to 360mins/wk.

 

[zaskar]

FYI, my target is a minimum of 180mins/wk by this definition and as I approach race season it will gradually increase to 360mins/wk.

Amazing, you are talking L4 time right? what kinda weekly TSS score you rack up a week?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Amazing, you are talking L4 time right? what kinda weekly TSS score you rack up a week?

L4-L6 time in total. My TSS numbers are fairly high, in large part due to the length of my rides (3-4 hrs). I will regularly post 1000+ TSS points/wk when I am in full-scale training (I'm in a build-up phase now after logging ~6-10 hrs/wk for December & January). My standard weekly ride is a 60-mile ride with ~4K' of climbing and I do that 2-3 times/wk plus 2 weekend rides of 50-60 miles each at 20+mph. It's not hard to get big weekly TSS numbers with 15-20 hrs/wk at a fairly high IF.

 

[frenchyge]

FYI, my target is a minimum of 180mins/wk by this definition and as I approach race season it will gradually increase to 360mins/wk.

You hope.

 

[RapDaddyo]

You hope.

Actually, every time I look at it as a percentage of total time on the bike, it's pretty pathetic.

 

[peterwright]

Peter, do you have an idea how many minutes you are getting in L4-L6, with the added constraint that the only minutes that are counted are those that are part of an interval at that level as defined by Dr. Coggan's schema? I realize this is not a stat you can easily pull out of CP (although I am working on something now related to matches that I can easily convert for that purpose), but I'm just wondering how much total time you estimate you are doing now -- you already mentioned that you get ~80 mins/wk due to your 4x20s. Do you do any L5s or L6s? Thanks. FYI, my target is a minimum of 180mins/wk by this definition and as I approach race season it will gradually increase to 360mins/wk.

Hi Rap

You will see in my earlier post that I was concerned about time in zones on specific zone days. My 80 odd mins comes from all my rides in a 7 day period including a weekly race. What this showed me was that 80 scheduled minutes plus a hard 2.5-3 hour race was still only producing 80 mins. When I examined my 2X20 min days the actual L4 was lower than I expected and there was obviously a drift into both L3 and L5. I asked the question about whether this matters and you will see in Andy's earlier post that in his opinion it doesnt but that the overall level of the interval (NP) is what counts ad not the spread within it.

I am not doing any specific L5 or L6 work at present as I feel that I am benefiting from the 2X20 sessions twice per week and the tempo rides the rest of the time are also helping shove FT in the right direction (this is where I feel my weakness lies as I can jump pretty well but will get tailed off the front bunch on a 10min plus climb.

My calc for total time in zone is only from the graph that CP produces (weekly change of date) and without zero's.

I still feel that it is too low but am not sure how to get it up to your sort of levels without killing myself..

 

[peterwright]

Peter, do you have an idea how many minutes you are getting in L4-L6, with the added constraint that the only minutes that are counted are those that are part of an interval at that level as defined by Dr. Coggan's schema? I realize this is not a stat you can easily pull out of CP (although I am working on something now related to matches that I can easily convert for that purpose), but I'm just wondering how much total time you estimate you are doing now -- you already mentioned that you get ~80 mins/wk due to your 4x20s. Do you do any L5s or L6s? Thanks. FYI, my target is a minimum of 180mins/wk by this definition and as I approach race season it will gradually increase to 360mins/wk.

Rap

L4-L6 total time from CP graph (best I can give you) looks like this for the last 4 weeks;

148
155
132
185

I cannot certify these as part of defined intervals but ost of my L4 work is from my 2X20s and the L5 and L6 will mostly come from my weekend race.

This week I can feel the higher load.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Rap

L4-L6 total time from CP graph (best I can give you) looks like this for the last 4 weeks;

148
155
132
185

I cannot certify these as part of defined intervals but ost of my L4 work is from my 2X20s and the L5 and L6 will mostly come from my weekend race.

This week I can feel the higher load.

Well, not all of those minutes will have been part of a continuous effort, but let's set that aside for the moment and look at what I call my "training efficiency." This is basically that number divided by total minutes on the bike per week. If you are riding ~11 hrs/wk, your training efficiency ranges from ~22% (148/660) to ~28% (185/660). But, of course you can't control this statistic in races, so the only way to increase this percentage is in your training rides. IMO, if you increase your minutes at L4-L6 (through continuous efforts at those levels) you will soon see results in the form of an increase in your sustainable power. The numbers you listed above are all that I really look at to gauge how much real training I am doing: My metrics -- 180 is okay, 360 is good and >360 is awesome.

 

[peterwright]

Well, not all of those minutes will have been part of a continuous effort, but let's set that aside for the moment and look at what I call my "training efficiency." This is basically that number divided by total minutes on the bike per week. If you are riding ~11 hrs/wk, your training efficiency ranges from ~22% (148/660) to ~28% (185/660). But, of course you can't control this statistic in races, so the only way to increase this percentage is in your training rides. IMO, if you increase your minutes at L4-L6 (through continuous efforts at those levels) you will soon see results in the form of an increase in your sustainable power. The numbers you listed above are all that I really look at to gauge how much real training I am doing: My metrics -- 180 is okay, 360 is good and >360 is awesome.

Rap

I concur 100% as I have seen a big improvement already by doing so. My question is that I do not know how I will fit any more L4+ sessions into my Mon-Fri without starting to fall asleep at my desk. The 2 2 X 20 sessions and then ussually 2 more tempo L3 rides and one "easier" L2 ride - then a hard race. I am feeling it already at around 650TSS - more ?

Please let me know what you think ?

 

[frenchyge]

Please let me know what you think ?

I think that if you're already feeling quite tired by Friday, as you said, that you shouldn't worry about trying to pack more L4 hours into the training week. RDO's thoughts that only L4-L6 provide any real training benefit don't seem to be widely shared among the frequent posters here.

A couple ideas would be 1) raise the intensity of the easier L2 ride, unless this is intended to be a recovery ride of some sort. I'd be surprised if easy rides are going to do much for you now that your racing has started. If it's intended to be a recovery ride, then taking that day off instead may allow you to raise one of the L3 days to an L4 day instead. 2) to use some of the races as training by pushing the intensity higher. Work for a teammate, try to establish a break, etc. solely in the interest of gaining hard training for higher priority races later in the season.

 

[peterwright]

I think that if you're already feeling quite tired by Friday, as you said, that you shouldn't worry about trying to pack more L4 hours into the training week. RDO's thoughts that only L4-L6 provide any real training benefit don't seem to be widely shared among the frequent posters here.

A couple ideas would be 1) raise the intensity of the easier L2 ride, unless this is intended to be a recovery ride of some sort. I'd be surprised if easy rides are going to do much for you now that your racing has started. If it's intended to be a recovery ride, then taking that day off instead may allow you to raise one of the L3 days to an L4 day instead. 2) to use some of the races as training by pushing the intensity higher. Work for a teammate, try to establish a break, etc. solely in the interest of gaining hard training for higher priority races later in the season.

Very diplomatic


Your comment makes a lot of sense. The trouble with the L2 ride is it is between a recovery and an endurance ride. E.G tomorrow it will be a struggle because today was 2.5 hours of tandem hell (105km) which was almost all in L4 I would think. I do not want to drop it and replace with rest as then total TSS drops..

L3 day to L4 maybe but very difficult as I already find a 90 min session at mid L3 quite a tough one - the only L4 days are the 2X20s.

Weekly scheduling is the real challenge I find - to make sure I am ready for the 2X20 sessions and in turn ready for my race (either Sat or Sun)

Thanks for the help anyway - much appreciated.