Weekly time in L3/L4 zones ?

[yzfrr11]

As to the L2 vs. rest day, for me there would be no decision required -- I would rest.

Rap,

I like a lot of what you say about your training. But I think you are overlooking several important benefits of L2/3.

Consider these:

L2 will improve glycogen storage, and induce intracellular machinery for beta-oxidation.

Also, 180+ minutes of L4 per week is very high. I would suggest that if you have this volume of L4, your threshold is higher that you think. If you tried decreasing your L4 for one week, I'd bet that you would find that workout could be performed at even higher power.

 

[WarrenG]

Not if you're just cruising along at 110-120% of functional threshold power as Warren describes - then I don't know what it is. The intensity of each effort clearly isn't high enough to increase either neuromuscular power or anaerobic capacity, and the duration of each effort isn't long enough to really improve VO2max. If you kept the intensity above 70% of functional threshold power during the rest periods ((70+110)/2=90) then you could consider it a workout aimed at raising your lactate threshold/improving your metabolic fitness, but it is probably suboptimal for that even if you kept it up for longer than the 8-10 min he suggests. Finally, it can hardly be considered a very good specific "race prep" session, as not many races entail varying your intensity in such a rigid manner.

Isn't 120% just a bit below this person's power at VO2max? Maybe I'm forgetting what FTP power equates to. So many acronyms, so little time...

It's funny when you say that such a rigid varying of intensity isn't very good specific race prep when we're talking about February training-not June.

Besides, some kinds of interval training are very effective because they simulate the the same environment we find in races during the time our weaknesses are important. We can address the specific weakness in training without worrying so much about simulating a race. Sometimes training is better training for races than races.

 

[WarrenG]

Rap,

I like a lot of what you say about your training. But I think you are overlooking several important benefits of L2/3.

Consider these:

L2 will improve glycogen storage, and induce intracellular machinery for beta-oxidation.

Also, 180+ minutes of L4 per week is very high. I would suggest that if you have this volume of L4, your threshold is higher that you think. If you tried decreasing your L4 for one week, I'd bet that you would find that workout could be performed at even higher power.

Good stuff. Also, if you're already doing say 2 hours at L4, would you become a better racer if you did some other useful training instead of just another hour of L4? Especially for a Cat 4 type racer.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Not if you're just cruising along at 110-120% of functional threshold power as Warren describes - then I don't know what it is. The intensity of each effort clearly isn't high enough to increase either neuromuscular power or anaerobic capacity, and the duration of each effort isn't long enough to really improve VO2max. If you kept the intensity above 70% of functional threshold power during the rest periods ((70+110)/2=90) then you could consider it a workout aimed at raising your lactate threshold/improving your metabolic fitness, but it is probably suboptimal for that even if you kept it up for longer than the 8-10 min he suggests. Finally, it can hardly be considered a very good specific "race prep" session, as not many races entail varying your intensity in such a rigid manner.

I was more commenting a chat between these two members. I tend to agree with frenchyge on that one.

I do some 1' on, 1' off and 30" on, 30" off stuff @ L6, but the recovery is L1 so it ends up being L4 time as well. So basically I am only riding L4 unless I'm doing a recovery ride, which is usually about an hour at ~52% FT.

Personally, I wouldn't characterize a set of 1-min L6 intervals with 1-min rest as an L4 workout, even if the average power for the workout falls within L4.

e.g. 2x (4X1min @ L6 - 1min very ez recov) with 10 to 30 minutes between.
That to me is a pure L6 workout, and one that can potentially hurt a lot

 

[RapDaddyo]

L2 will improve glycogen storage, and induce intracellular machinery for beta-oxidation.

Well, I hadn't looked at L2 minutes as producing a specific benefit, but I'd like to know more about the benefit you cite. Do you have any studies I can read about this process? Anyway, I get lots of L2 minutes as a consequence of warmup, cooldown and "between intervals" time. I just don't set any weekly L2 goals and I don't pay any attention to my L1-L3 minutes when I review my weekly training time. So, if this is a side-benefit, great.

Also, 180+ minutes of L4 per week is very high. I would suggest that if you have this volume of L4, your threshold is higher that you think. If you tried decreasing your L4 for one week, I'd bet that you would find that workout could be performed at even higher power.

Well, the 180+ min reference is combined L4-L6 time (at continuous durations as appropriate to the level), but when I look at it analytically it just doesn't seem all that high. On the road, I find it really hard to break the 50% barrier (L4-L6 time as percentage of total ride time). So, even at ~15hrs/wk, I can't see getting it up over 7.5hrs. How would I differentiate what you are suggesting from the benefits of a pre-race taper? Anyway, to me it still comes down to allocation of training time by level. If I choose to train 15 hrs/wk, what's the best way to allocate that time? Ideally, I want 50% of my training time in L4-L6 combined, with a mix of 50%/30%/20%. But, I never quite achieve that because I tailor my workouts to my courses and there just aren't enough long neutral or positive grades. What I think I do get is a very race specific workout with a highly variable power profile.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Good stuff. Also, if you're already doing say 2 hours at L4, would you become a better racer if you did some other useful training instead of just another hour of L4? Especially for a Cat 4 type racer.

that all depends on the phase you are in, and on the plan you rely on.

180 min at L4 doesn't sound like that much to me, especially if 120m is done at lower L4. For a rider training 10hr/week and more, during a L4 development mezocycle, 180min in not a lot.

 

[WarrenG]

that all depends on the phase you are in, and on the plan you rely on.

180 min at L4 doesn't sound like that much to me, especially if 120m is done at lower L4. For a rider training 10hr/week and more, during a L4 development mezocycle, 180min in not a lot.

You're right. I was forgetting how wide that L4 range is. Could be anything from what many people call "easy tempo" all the way to near threshold. I try to translate it to the training zones I use but I have two seperate training zones within the range of 80-95% of threshold. I guess I should have said upper L4, as in LT, TP, AnT, OBLA, MLSS, etc. Too bad those Lx terms are not more descriptive.

 

[peterwright]

You're right. I was forgetting how wide that L4 range is. Could be anything from what many people call "easy tempo" all the way to near threshold. I try to translate it to the training zones I use but I have two seperate training zones within the range of 80-95% of threshold. I guess I should have said upper L4, as in LT, TP, AnT, OBLA, MLSS, etc. Too bad those Lx terms are not more descriptive.

Low L4 could never be called "easy tempo"..

 

[yzfrr11]

Well, I hadn't looked at L2 minutes as producing a specific benefit, but I'd like to know more about the benefit you cite. Do you have any studies I can read about this process?

Check this out:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8744251&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[acoggan]

Isn't 120% just a bit below this person's power at VO2max?

It would be, but since you only keep it up for 1 min at a time, the training stimulus is limited at best unless you also keep the intensity during the "off" period quite high (which it doesn't sound like you do).

It's funny when you say that such a rigid varying of intensity isn't very good specific race prep when we're talking about February training-not June.

February or June, it doesn't matter: never during a race are you going to be going strictly 1 min on, 1 min off, at specified powers, for only 4-5 min. So the question becomes: what is the purpose of this workout? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, at least the way you've described it.

Besides, some kinds of interval training are very effective because they simulate the the same environment we find in races during the time our weaknesses are important.

What this workout simulates is sort of cruising along for 4-5 min in pack that keeps surging, but with said surges being of limited intensity and at an overall speed that isn't particularly challenging. I don't see how that is going to do much to address anyone's weaknesses.

We can address the specific weakness in training without worrying so much about simulating a race. Sometimes training is better training for races than races.

See, now there are some things that we apparently do agree upon. However, I don't how the sort of mish-mash workout you've described fits with this philosophy.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Check this out:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=8744251&query_hl=5&itool=pubmed_docsum

I know it is not my business, but moderate intensity, up to 2hr duration, sounds like tempo riding to me.

 

[WarrenG]

It would be, but since you only keep it up for 1 min at a time, the training stimulus is limited at best unless you also keep the intensity during the "off" period quite high (which it doesn't sound like you do).



February or June, it doesn't matter: never during a race are you going to be going strictly 1 min on, 1 min off, at specified powers, for only 4-5 min. So the question becomes: what is the purpose of this workout? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me, at least the way you've described it.



What this workout simulates is sort of cruising along for 4-5 min in pack that keeps surging, but with said surges being of limited intensity and at an overall speed that isn't particularly challenging. I don't see how that is going to do much to address anyone's weaknesses.



See, now there are some things that we apparently do agree upon. However, I don't how the sort of mish-mash workout you've described fits with this philosophy.

I was originally just trying to explain that 1' at L5 or 6 with 1' at L2 or 3 doesn't make it the same as the average of the two intensities.

I personally don't see much use for 1' at L5 with easy between except maybe as something to do during a taper or the day before racing, i.e. no real training effect. If I was doing 1' intervals they'd be at higher power than L5, but I'd be more likely to do the 1' at L5 at the end of 3-X' at high L4, or at the end of a 3-5' progression from L3 through L4.

 

[acoggan]

I was originally just trying to explain that 1' at L5 or 6 with 1' at L2 or 3 doesn't make it the same as the average of the two intensities.

Or as it says on p. 130 of the USA Cycling Level II coaching manual:

"While the system is based on the average power during a workout or interval effort, consideration must also be given to the distribution of power...a workout consisting of, for example, 30 min of cycling at level 1 (as warm-up), 60 min of cycling at level 3, and another 30 min of cycling at level 1 (as warm down) would best be described as a tempo training session, even though the overall average power might fall within level 2."

 

[stevevinck]

I do believe in training on power but what I read here about training time in zones doesn't look realistic to me.
10 hours/week at treshold ? In literature (based on heartrate) one can read that recovery time from an intensive training at lactate treshold can take up to 48 hours for well trainened athletes.

Yesterday I saw an interview of Tom Boonen (yes , elite world champion) In his preparation he never left fatburning zones in his first 3 months of preparation.

Do I miss something (english is not my native language and all those acronyms don't really help )

 

[yzfrr11]

with regards to Beta oxidation, this is from a quality research group:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9740552&query_hl=2&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[frenchyge]

Do I miss something (english is not my native language and all those acronyms don't really help )

Yes, I believe so. Someone said that doing 3 hours of threshold as part of a 10 hour/week program sounded okay, but I don't think anyone has mentioned doing 10 hours of threshold work in a week.

 

[stevevinck]

Yes, I believe so. Someone said that doing 3 hours of threshold as part of a 10 hour/week program sounded okay, but I don't think anyone has mentioned doing 10 hours of threshold work in a week.

yeah I see, but still that is 30%
can they obtain max.heartrate at the end of the week ? or is there some overtraining danger

 

[SolarEnergy]

Althoug 10hr of threshold work in a week, even if it may be challanging, that is pretty realistic in a training camp situation.

 

[whoawhoa]

Rap,

I like a lot of what you say about your training. But I think you are overlooking several important benefits of L2/3.

Consider these:

L2 will improve glycogen storage, and induce intracellular machinery for beta-oxidation.

And it will apparently also raise threshold just as much as l4 work, provided you do enough volume. But I agree with Rap, I would rest on this day, since I don't think a 90 minute l2 workout is providing much.

Also, 180+ minutes of L4 per week is very high. I would suggest that if you have this volume of L4, your threshold is higher that you think..

I can't speak for anyone else, but I typically do this just in structured intervals. I have no way to account for outdoor, non interval rides though.

If you tried decreasing your L4 for one week, I'd bet that you would find that workout could be performed at even higher power.

Would that necessarily be better?

 

[yzfrr11]

Would that necessarily be better?

On the assumtion that Rap's threshold is higher than he thinks, and he has been doing 180 min of L3 thinking that it was L4, then yes, the higher power would be better for him.