Weight Lifting & Cycling??

[2LAP]

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Edd, I'm not confusing them. We seemed to have exhausted the possibilities for general strength training in endurance athletes - but perhaps there is a role for remedial weight training. The name of this thread is 'weight lifting and cycling', not 'general strength training for endurance performance'. What do you reckon? Is there a role for remedial weight training, how many people need to do it, and is there a role for doing it before you have a problem - preventative rather than remedial?

Perhaps you should start a new thread on this one. I think throught the post people have said that weights MAY be useful remedialy. In terms of preventative, there may be some use for underlying at risk of injury (i.e. people with knee or back problems), however as cycling is generaly injury free for most people (even elite riders) I think that preventative has little value for most.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by 2LAP
Perhaps you should start a new thread on this one. I think throught the post people have said that weights MAY be useful remedialy. In terms of preventative, there may be some use for underlying at risk of injury (i.e. people with knee or back problems), however as cycling is generaly injury free for most people (even elite riders) I think that preventative has little value for most.

Agree....

I was thinking that in the long term, say 35 years and older, everyone could get a little benefit from weights, definately at age 40 yr think about training/retaining one's strength so one can keep it into one's 50s, 60s and beyond.

This would prevent a little of something anyway

When do elite cyclist retire ? do they retire ? or do they just join senior cycling clubs ?

 

[2LAP]

Originally posted by edd
Agree....

I was thinking that in the long term, say 35 years and older, everyone could get a little benefit from weights, definately at age 40 yr think about training/retaining one's strength so one can keep it into one's 50s, 60s and beyond.

This would prevent a little of something anyway

When do elite cyclist retire ? do they retire ? or do they just join senior cycling clubs ?

Yes for older riders; some weight training at 60+ might be good for health even though it may not improve their cycling (to prevent muscle atrophy, increase functional ability, etc.).

Many pros retire soon after their career is over and end up fairly inactive. For amatures though, there are many cyclists still racing at 80 and I know a number who tour at 90. These guys are generaly exceptional for their age in all elements of their fitness.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by 2LAP
Yes for older riders; some weight training at 60+ might be good for health
Many pros retire soon after their career is over and end up fairly inactive. .

60 is a bit late ( better then never) to start with weights, I see this all the time. I'd start at 40 but just do a very minimal routine, 10 - 15 min twice a week, just enough to retain one's strength

retire at what age exactly ? ....... just curious

 

[k1v1n]

Originally posted by Aztec
Actually, Ric, I want to differ with you on one point, and I'm uncertain about another.

2) You mentioned that sprinters need hypertrophy. Is this really accurate? I would think that hypertrophy wouldn't be the answer, but rather the rider simply wants more power (which doesn't always require more mass). I think of the powerlifters who increase their squat poundages dramatically over time and yet don't add much mass (i.e., 135 lb guys squatting 450, etc).

This raises an interesting question in regards to the "conventional" weight training recommendations. The training regiment most often suggested is low weights--high reps. This is exactly the routine followed by body builders. These folks do tons of reps with light weights, and they put on large quantities of muscle mass.

Muscle mass is the last thing an endurance cyclist needs to carry over long distances. I can see where an endurance cyclist would want extra strength on a climb, however. So why don't we see the routine of powerlifters recommended more frequently to other athletes? These guys compete at the same weight class their whole careers, and yet they make tremendous gains in strength over that time. There are lots of sports where carrying extra weight is not an advantage. So why the uniform weight lifting recommendations?

 

[Roadie_scum]

Originally posted by k1v1n
I can see where an endurance cyclist would want extra strength on a climb, however.

I just thought I'd beat ric to the punch and query how exactly you think extra strength would help on a climb? Repeat after me class: the forces required are low, and the effort is sustained. This is unrelated to the maximal force that can be generated by your muscle.

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally posted by k1v1n
This raises an interesting question in regards to the "conventional" weight training recommendations. The training regiment most often suggested is low weights--high reps. This is exactly the routine followed by body builders. These folks do tons of reps with light weights, and they put on large quantities of muscle mass.

Muscle mass is the last thing an endurance cyclist needs to carry over long distances. I can see where an endurance cyclist would want extra strength on a climb, however. So why don't we see the routine of powerlifters recommended more frequently to other athletes? These guys compete at the same weight class their whole careers, and yet they make tremendous gains in strength over that time. There are lots of sports where carrying extra weight is not an advantage. So why the uniform weight lifting recommendations?

This was a reply to Aztec who wrote -

You mentioned that sprinters need hypertrophy. Is this really accurate? I would think that hypertrophy wouldn't be the answer, but rather the rider simply wants more power (which doesn't always require more mass). I think of the powerlifters who increase their squat poundages dramatically over time and yet don't add much mass (i.e., 135 lb guys squatting 450, etc).

From my involvement in gym strength training for sprinting (athletics) and caried over to cycling, hypertrophy came with 8-12 reps bringing on muscle "burn" not low weights and high reps. Strength developed from 1-5 reps after developing hypertrophy. Developing the cross sectional size of muscle did not necessarily convert into strength gains.

Once you have plateaued in your strength development (1-5 reps) you returned to hypertrophy (8-12) to further develop muscle size and then back to strength.

Competitive powerlifters spend their life in the gym and the strength benefits whilst remaining in the same weight class come from genetics, patience and avoiding hypertrophy. Lean muscle is much heavier than even fat.

It is a very slow way to increase strength and would require the sacrifice of a lot of time on the bike such that you would be a powerlifter and occasional cyclist. Increasing the strength from FT fibres would also have no benefit to climbers/endurance riders.

To a track sprinter outright power is more important than power to weight. Power to air displacement is the key factor in sprint speed

A road sprinter is an animal in between as they have to endure before they can sprint. You may note that most of the successful Australian elite road sprinters whose team job is to secure tour sprint points did not compete in track sprints but are track pursuiters -

Baden Cook (Victorian State pursuit team)
Stuart O'Grady (Ex Australian pursuit team)
Graeme Brown (Current Australian pursuit team)
Mark Renshaw (Current Australian pursuit team)

 

[edd]

Originally posted by k1v1n
This raises an interesting question in regards to the "conventional" weight training recommendations. The training regiment most often suggested is low weights--high reps. This is exactly the routine followed by body builders. These folks do tons of reps with light weights, and they put on large quantities of muscle mass.

Muscle mass is the last thing an endurance cyclist needs to carry over long distances. I can see where an endurance cyclist would want extra strength on a climb, however. So why don't we see the routine of powerlifters recommended more frequently to other athletes? These guys compete at the same weight class their whole careers, and yet they make tremendous gains in strength over that time. There are lots of sports where carrying extra weight is not an advantage. So why the uniform weight lifting recommendations?

I know there is 24 pages, but you should go back and read this thread. The response to your assessment is covered very comprehensively

I’ve been 33 years in various sports 30 years in a gym and 12 years a strength coach and I leant a lot from this thread regarding strength and how it ( or if it ) applies to cycling.

 

[Powderfinger]

People,

I think those of you (Zakeen) who rail against Ric's statements that weight training is not beneficial for endurance cyclists are missing a crucial qualification: that weightlifting won't help people who are already training and have a certain level of fitness.

This is a fairly high threshold in my opinion, as a good deal of the people on here and road riders in general are still at the trying-to-become-fit stages of their athletic development. Ric's point is not so counterintuitive if you realize this fact.

Sure, if your body fat is 28% and you have poor flexibility, no muscle, and weak tendons from a sedentary lifestyle, then weightlifting will def. help. You will build lean muscle which will burn fat and your posture will improve and you will just have a better overall sense of well-being, which will translate into benefits on the bike (don't forget the psychological benefits of working hard in the gym).

As you continue to ride, however, you get diminishing marginal returns for your weightlifting efforts. I know this from experience as I started riding a year ago after a long period of zero exercise. Strength training was invaluable. But as my fitness hit a certain level, I just realized that the weights weren't helping, and I was actually having worse rides b/c my legs were shot from all the weights I was doing.

 

[NetAthlon Nut]

Originally posted by ffvelazquezh
It is true that the weight lifting gives us some improvement in cycling. I can find enough information about the best exercises regarding with the main involved muscles, but I would want to know a little bit more based in personal experiences on the exercises that have worked better, mainly the recommended frequency, because I train cycling at least 4-5 days per week and I ignore the best way to mix both exercise types, since I would have to decide among diminishing distance and intensity in order to practice both in the same day or, to maintain intensity and distances diminishing the days dedicated to the cycling and to dedicate them to the strength training, how many days are the minimal/maximal recommended.??

I know that the best thing is the personal experimentation in order to define how adapts our own body better, but I look for some kind of orientation based on past personal experiences that helps me to decide but quickly what would work better

I'm looking for some riding buddies. Click on the link http://www.fitcentric.com/html/course_library.htm and scroll down to see what I'm into.

 

[2LAP]

Great summary...

Originally posted by Powderfinger
Sure, if your body fat is 28% and you have poor flexibility, no muscle, and weak tendons from a sedentary lifestyle, then weightlifting will def. help. You will build lean muscle which will burn fat and your posture will improve and you will just have a better overall sense of well-being, which will translate into benefits on the bike (don't forget the psychological benefits of working hard in the gym).

I think any form of exercise would help an individual like this!!!!

Originally posted by Powderfinger
As you continue to ride, however, you get diminishing marginal returns for your weightlifting efforts. I know this from experience as I started riding a year ago after a long period of zero exercise. Strength training was invaluable. But as my fitness hit a certain level, I just realized that the weights weren't helping, and I was actually having worse rides b/c my legs were shot from all the weights I was doing.

Also if you ONLY want to cycle faster, as either a beginner or expert, on the bike training will be more effective than any other form of training (except when the other forms of exercise are required as rehab, etc.).

 

[barnone]

I am a former bodybuilder and powerlifter who fell in love with cycling after many years of heavy weight training. The current issue of bicycling magazine has an article that talks about the problem of low bone density in highly fit cyclers. Some of these men had bone densities of 70 year old women even though they are elite athletes in the sport of cycling.

Weight training is a great way to help keep the bones thicker and more dense. That being said, even though I have backed way off of the weights, I am still at 200 pounds at a height of 5'11". My legs are very strong from years of squatting so I am a great sprinter. My weight does limit me on the climbs however.

Someone on this forum stated that cyclists should stick to low weight and high reps. I think that is bad advice. If you want a training response from weight training, it is far better to stick with sets of 6-10 reps. I don't feel that most bikers need to worry about bulking up if they follow the right kind of diet and burn enough calories when doing their bike training.

For most of us in this forum, we will never be world class bikers like Lance, Tyler etc. I personally would rather have a little muscle on my upper body for more of an overall athletic appearance. Having great legs and 12" arms doesn't cut it IMHO.
Away from the bike, you just look like a pencil-neck.

Sorry - just my bodybuilding roots coming through!

Happy riding / lifting all-

Barnone

 

[edd]

Originally posted by barnone
I am a former bodybuilder and powerlifter who fell in love with cycling after many years of heavy weight training. The current issue of bicycling magazine has an article that talks about the problem of low bone density in highly fit cyclers. Some of these men had bone densities of 70 year old women even though they are elite athletes in the sport of cycling.

Weight training is a great way to help keep the bones thicker and more dense. That being said, even though I have backed way off of the weights, I am still at 200 pounds at a height of 5'11". My legs are very strong from years of squatting so I am a great sprinter. My weight does limit me on the climbs however.

Someone on this forum stated that cyclists should stick to low weight and high reps. I think that is bad advice. If you want a training response from weight training, it is far better to stick with sets of 6-10 reps. I don't feel that most bikers need to worry about bulking up if they follow the right kind of diet and burn enough calories when doing their bike training.

For most of us in this forum, we will never be world class bikers like Lance, Tyler etc. I personally would rather have a little muscle on my upper body for more of an overall athletic appearance. Having great legs and 12" arms doesn't cut it IMHO.
Away from the bike, you just look like a pencil-neck.

Sorry - just my bodybuilding roots coming through!

Happy riding / lifting all-

Barnone

When next you are riding up a hill and some pencil neck flys past you at about 20 kph faster then what you are climbing at you might get the bit about cycling is all about aerobic conditoning and nothing to do with strength.

 

[Larry B Corthel]

edd,

Barnone said nothing to deserve such a cheap shot.

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally posted by Larry B Corthel
edd,

Barnone said nothing to deserve such a cheap shot.

Don't agree. Edd's post was succinctly 100% correct. Barnone is putting a personal view that he would prefer to appear cosmetically more acceptable (and not be able to climb competitively) to a forum titled "Cycling Training."

It was not a cheap shot by Edd.

Barnone also erroneously puts the opinion "I don't feel that most bikers need to worry about bulking up if they follow the right kind of diet and burn enough calories when doing their bike training."

On the contrary, the only competitive bike riders who are not concerned about bulking up are track sprinters and they account for a very low percentage of competitive cyclists. And you could never burn enough calories to offset the additional weight of lean muscle, which is heavier than fat.

 

[Ted B]

Originally posted by barnone
I am a former bodybuilder and powerlifter who fell in love with cycling after many years of heavy weight training. The current issue of bicycling magazine has an article that talks about the problem of low bone density in highly fit cyclers.

This is my story exactly - came into cycling following 15 years of dedicated, high-intensity weight training. Making resistance training a part of one's lifestyle is preventive medicine where bone density issues are concerned.

I personally would rather have a little muscle on my upper body for more of an overall athletic appearance. Having great legs and 12" arms doesn't cut it IMHO.
Away from the bike, you just look like a pencil-neck.

These are my sentiments exactly. Those who want to 'die' cycling welcome the prospect of being a waif in exchange for being as good a cyclist as they can be. We are different in that we don't mind sacrificing some endurance cycling ability in order to preserve our hard-earned musculature. While we are all cyclists in some capacity, not every participant in this forum has the same lifestyle and goals.

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Originally posted by Ted B
This is my story exactly - came into cycling following 15 years of dedicated, high-intensity weight training. Making resistance training a part of one's lifestyle is preventive medicine where bone density issues are concerned.

actually, the evidence supporting BMD and weight training isn't that good, you'd be far better off (if health and BMD) with weight bearing exercise and drug interventions

Ric

 

[barnone]

Originally posted by VeloFlash
Don't agree. Edd's post was succinctly 100% correct. Barnone is putting a personal view that he would prefer to appear cosmetically more acceptable (and not be able to climb competitively) to a forum titled "Cycling Training."

It was not a cheap shot by Edd.

Barnone also erroneously puts the opinion "I don't feel that most bikers need to worry about bulking up if they follow the right kind of diet and burn enough calories when doing their bike training."

On the contrary, the only competitive bike riders who are not concerned about bulking up are track sprinters and they account for a very low percentage of competitive cyclists. And you could never burn enough calories to offset the additional weight of lean muscle, which is heavier than fat.

I didn't take any offense to Edd's suggestion that he would blow me off the mountain in a race. He is certainly entitled to his opinion and can pursue excellence in the sport any way he deems fit. I was simply stating my opinion and didn't mean to demean anyone else in the process.

When I stated that bikers need not be concerned with bulking up, I meant that it is damn hard to build lean muscle even if that's your primary goal of training. A cyclist that includes a few heavy/low rep sets for each body group a few times a week will not gain a appreciable amount of muscle because they would be burning way to much energy on the bike day in and day out and not eating enough extra calories or getting enough rest for hypertrophy to occur. There will be exceptions to this, but those are only in the case of mesomorphic body types who are easy gainers (rare). I have seen power lifters who work out with very heavy weights but are still quite thin. These individuals are however, very strong. I would think that this would not be a hindrance on a bike.

I must say however that I'm primarily a MTB racer but train on the road frequently. I feel that off-road bike handling requires more overall strength than pure road racing.

For my workout tonight... 1 hour of "cosmetic acceptance" training followed by another hour of biker worthy training on my kurt kinetic

-Barnone

 

[edd]

Originally posted by barnone
I didn't take any offense to Edd's suggestion that he would blow me off the mountain in a race. He is certainly entitled to his opinion and can pursue excellence in the sport any way he deems fit. I was simply stating my opinion and didn't mean to demean anyone else in the process.

When I stated that bikers need not be concerned with bulking up, I meant that it is damn hard to build lean muscle even if that's your primary goal of training. A cyclist that includes a few heavy/low rep sets for each body group a few times a week will not gain a appreciable amount of muscle because they would be burning way to much energy on the bike day in and day out and not eating enough extra calories or getting enough rest for hypertrophy to occur. There will be exceptions to this, but those are only in the case of mesomorphic body types who are easy gainers (rare). I have seen power lifters who work out with very heavy weights but are still quite thin. These individuals are however, very strong. I would think that this would not be a hindrance on a bike.

I must say however that I'm primarily a MTB racer but train on the road frequently. I feel that off-road bike handling requires more overall strength than pure road racing.

For my workout tonight... 1 hour of "cosmetic acceptance" training followed by another hour of biker worthy training on my kurt kinetic

-Barnone

okay....

Yeah it was a cheap shot. and yes, you deserved it.

Not because of who you are or what you do or the opinions you may or may not have..

but because you haven’t bloody well read this thread !

It’s a long thread, I know, Ric and 2Lap and host of others have put some really useful and insightful stuff in it.

And no, I wouldn’t blow you off the mountain, I’m not a pencil neck, I bench a couple of 80lb dumb bells twice a week and I’m a 55 year old recreational cyclist (38 years) with a strength coach / martial arts back ground.

But I’m becoming a better cyclist.

 

[barnone]

Originally posted by edd
okay....

Yeah it was a cheap shot. and yes, you deserved it.

Not because of who you are or what you do or the opinions you may or may not have..

but because you haven’t bloody well read this thread !

It’s a long thread, I know, Ric and 2Lap and host of others have put some really useful and insightful stuff in it.

And no, I wouldn’t blow you off the mountain, I’m not a pencil neck, I bench a couple of 80lb dumb bells twice a week and I’m a 55 year old recreational cyclist (38 years) with a strength coach / martial arts back ground.

But I’m becoming a better cyclist.

Ok Edd, nuff said... 'll make sure to catch up on the thread before I throw in my .02 next time.

Keep on crankin'

-Barnone