Weight-Lifting for Legs

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Threshold, Sep 9, 2010.

  1. fergie

    fergie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,924
    Likes Received:
    12
    Also provides a little more context. Maybe there is a reason Victoria Pendleton is in the gym 3 x a week. And as has been pointed out maybe she isn't doing weights every session. At out local academy of sport the BT-ATS ergs and the Wattbikes are in there as well as the hot cold pools for recovery.
     


  2. fergie

    fergie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,924
    Likes Received:
    12
    Still waiting for these myths to be busted:rolleyes:
    Myth Buster Busted: Levin et al (2009) showed a reduction in 1000m TT performance.

    Myth Buster Busted: Researchers and Coaches on this list who are more than familiar with the insides of a gym. Care to show us how strength training helps cycling?

    Myth Buster Busted: First you have to establish why we need to train strength!

    Still waiting for you to tell us about your mystical powers of observation to pick out the riders whose bad posture is because of a lack of strength.

    Myth Buster Busted: Missed this Straw Man. Unless there are cyclists out there trying to get fat (ha ha loser's I didn't have to do a thing to get my love handles).

    Myth Buster Busted. Rehrer et al (2010) showed an increase in lean body mass at the conclusion of a 6 day UCI International Stage race. Mean Lean Mass went from 68.8kg to 70.4kg. Guess it pays to have a group of Dieticians preparing your meals every day.

    Myth Buster Busted: Lots of cardio in a 6 day stage race and they gained lean muscle!!!

    You did Strength Training and had delayed onset muscular soreness. So not really strength training is it unless you want to get stronger from bigger muscles.

    DOMS didn't affect your ability to ride the bike. What does this tell you?

    So nearly two decades of studying this stuff and every one of your Myth Busters was Busted. I would seriously be asking for my tuition fees back.
     
  3. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    Serious Chris

    I am not sure what your goals are, but if I may add my opinion on your routine. It is just a thought and if you desire to keep it arranged like you do that is fine.

    You train back, dead lifts and squats all in the same work out and then was able to ride home.

    If your goal is gaining strength in dead lifts or squats consider not doing them on the same day. That is typical of many powerlifters to not put two major movements on the same day. They focus on squats one day and deadlifts on another day.

    It is kind of like the concept of burning matches in cycling where an individual has only "x" amount of matches in their book. Once they burn all their matches they cannot be reproduced and will not be available again during that event.

    To gain strength is also very similar to improving one's functional threshold. So in order to gain strength you have to train with progressive overload or heavy weight, low reps. In lifting that may be >80% of 1 rep max just as in cycling one may train >80% of FT.

    If you train to improve strength in squats you would want to be efficient in coming off the street cold and warming up to hit those "training" sets, which for many power lifters you will hear them say, "triples." That is a common term. Weight heavy enough to attempt a 3 rep set and to safely do this you will need spotters on lifts like squats and bench.

    If you have done this for squats you will have burned matches (using cycling terms since we are on a cycling forum :)) and more than likely, unless you are super human, you will not have anything left to properly work on the dead lifts. That is why true strength athletes typically do not put the two on the same day.

    But if you are just a lifter and you are just trying to improve your general leg strength than it perfectly fine to have both on the same day if you understand that one of those movements are not going to improve. But just to let you know that the true competitive lifters will not classify you as a strength athlete. Instead they would just see you as a guy that lifts weights. In similar fashion many people ride bikes as a recreational hobby, but fewer actually train to improve their functional threshold.

    Like fergie stated if you were to properly train for strength in lifting you would really struggle to walk out to the car, much less, be able to ride home on a bike. Back in the day when I was competitive in lifting that would be the case. If I trained to improve my squats I had to put dead lifts several days away in order to train properly or to hit those sets requiring >80% max. I have to admit these days I am a "has been" as my old training partner used to tease me. All I can do is reflect back to my glory days of hitting those heavy squats so I admittedly fall into the category of just a guy lifting weights present day. Some street lingo calls that "maintenance lifting," but the I like the phrase, "you are either training or detraining." I am unfortunately detraining in strength and my strength is going down each year because I am not training that aspect as hard as I used to.

    So to be training in cycling requires a progressive stress load and so does strength training and there lies the problem, IMO, for the argument that one can do both. Most normal humans cannot recover from both training activities and do well so I am always skeptical when someone says they do both and they could potentially raise their 1 rep max threshold and at the same time raise their functional threshold. When I hear that my experience has me thinking they are not really training as hard in one or the other.

    Believe me I would be in a blissful state of mind if lifting improved my cycling performance, but it has not. If anything I fully realize that I would have more time to focus on improving my functional threshold if I dropped lifting and focused on cycling, but I do not intend to compete in cycling so I am one of those "cross fit" people as the new trendy label applies.
     
  4. Serious Chris

    Serious Chris New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fergie . Love it how someone who is here for 5 mins and calls me a troll/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif
    You don't really hide it very well.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swampy1970 . ...But if you'd actually taken some time to figure out what his trainers (Peter Keen - who just happened to be the original brains of the all dominating British Cycling track team) approach was to events even as short as the 4km pursuit was, then you'd understand that weights had no part of that program. Chris actually spent most of the winter prior to his first hour record on a mountain bike going spuds out trying to keep up with his team mates on road bikes... Fancy stuff aye, an Olympic champion going from the Lotus bike to a mountain bike with knobblies on in the lashing rain of the Wirral. But it got in the volume of quality training that was required for the prep. That the first few of those rides required someone going out and picking Chris up in a car because he was smashed ended up being inconsequential - but it does highlight the amount of work that was required.
    You're so right! I totally should have gotten all of that from the video you linked; that had none of that information within.
     
  5. VadarStrikesBack

    VadarStrikesBack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,023
    Likes Received:
    82
    This is one of the greatest threads of 2010.

    Golden.
     
  6. fergie

    fergie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,924
    Likes Received:
    12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Serious Chris . You're so right! I totally should have gotten all of that from the video you linked; that had none of that information within.
    So you should be thanking Swampy for filling in the gaps of your sadly lacking knowledge.
     
  7. Serious Chris

    Serious Chris New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fergie . Love it how someone who is here for 5 mins and calls me a troll/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fergie . So you should be thanking Swampy for filling in the gaps of your sadly lacking knowledge.
    .
     
  8. tonyzackery

    tonyzackery Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2006
    Messages:
    3,517
    Likes Received:
    46
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by fergie . So where do you get off telling coaches and exercise physiologists that they are ignorant of weight training and making claims for benefits and not providing any evidence to support them.

    Seriously Chris is one strong ride the basis of your claims?
    The sum of the matter. Thank you, Ferg.

    This is an internet forum afterall - since when has evidence or proof been a prerequisite for making any claim??/img/vbsmilies/smilies/biggrin.gif He/she (not sure which) did it, made the statement anonomously on an internet forum, so it MUST be true.

    Furthermore Ferg, how dare you have the audacity to question the veracity of his/her claims??!! Obviously we're dealing with a supreme authority on the subject, and anyone who disagrees is convincingly ignorant as to the correct, and ultimately successful application of strength training with weights to increase endurance cycling performance...

    Again, I sincerely hope and trust my racing competition is tuning into this thread. The sooner they get start on that weight training program, the better...
     
  9. swampy1970

    swampy1970 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    10,057
    Likes Received:
    185
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Serious Chris . You don't really hide it very well.

    You're so right! I totally should have gotten all of that from the video you linked; that had none of that information within.
    ... Since you came to 'the table' with the cocky swagger that you knew it all, I just thought I was just providing a little refresher.

    Humble pie... It sometimes makes for a tasty start to a feast of training goodness. You should try some sometime.
     
  10. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,607
    Likes Received:
    341
    Yes ,everyone loves a good pissing contest but I am in the opinion that it may degrade further and get out of hand.
    Contestants please remember to keep it civil.
     
  11. Serious Chris

    Serious Chris New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swampy1970 . ... Since you came to 'the table' with the cocky swagger that you knew it all, I just thought I was just providing a little refresher.
    Not at all, I'm very teachable. My reply to your video link was made in the same humor in which you posted. Next time I'll use the /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif feature so everyone will know I'm joking.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swampy1970 . Humble pie... It sometimes makes for a tasty start to a feast of training goodness. You should try some sometime.
    I don't eat pie; it's fattening.
    Oh f*ck! Almost forgot my /img/vbsmilies/smilies/tongue.gif
     
  12. fergie

    fergie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,924
    Likes Received:
    12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by swampy1970 . ... Since you came to 'the table' with the cocky swagger that you knew it all, I just thought I was just providing a little refresher.

    Humble pie... It sometimes makes for a tasty start to a feast of training goodness. You should try some sometime.
    Also provides a little more context. Maybe there is a reason Victoria Pendleton is in the gym 3 x a week. And as has been pointed out maybe she isn't doing weights every session. At out local academy of sport the BT-ATS ergs and the Wattbikes are in there as well as the hot cold pools for recovery.
     
  13. fergie

    fergie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,924
    Likes Received:
    12
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Seriously Chris . Here's some myth busting:
    Still waiting for these myths to be busted/img/vbsmilies/smilies/rolleyes.gif
    Quote:
    The fact is there is no harm, only good, in being strong as well as healthy on a cardiovascular level. Myth Buster Busted: Levin et al (2009) showed a reduction in 1000m TT performance.

    Quote:
    The claim that strength training does nothing to help cycling is a generalized and ignorant statement, usually said by people who have never successfully or correctly strength-trained with weights. Myth Buster Busted: Researchers and Coaches on this list who are more than familiar with the insides of a gym. Care to show us how strength training helps cycling?

    Quote:
    On the other hand, body building will make you heavier and slower, so you need to figure out the ratio of lifting/cardio you want for what you're after. Myth Buster Busted: First you have to establish why we need to train strength!

    Quote:
    Creating a core of healthy muscle will help your posture and prevent injuries from real world lifting and activity. Still waiting for you to tell us about your mystical powers of observation to pick out the riders whose bad posture is because of a lack of strength.

    Quote:
    It will also help your metabolism stay up, as muscle is more metabolic than fat. Myth Buster Busted: Missed this Straw Man. Unless there are cyclists out there trying to get fat (ha ha loser's I didn't have to do a thing to get my love handles).

    Quote:
    Realize also that long sessions of cardiovascular exercise do cannibalize a degree of muscle, even if your diet is very specific to help prevent this. Myth Buster Busted. Rehrer et al (2010) showed an increase in lean body mass at the conclusion of a 6 day UCI International Stage race. Mean Lean Mass went from 68.8kg to 70.4kg. Guess it pays to have a group of Dieticians preparing your meals every day.

    Quote:
    Strength training will further help rebuild and maintain muscle mass if you do lots of cardio. Myth Buster Busted: Lots of cardio in a 6 day stage race and they gained lean muscle!!!

    Quote:
    Yesterday I rode to the gym (7 miles; it's the gym at my school) and did upper/lower back and legs; dead-lifts and squats were some of the exercises performed; then I rode home with no ill benefits. Today I have DOMS and still did a strong 30 miles on the bike, affected very little by said DOMS. You did Strength Training and had delayed onset muscular soreness. So not really strength training is it unless you want to get stronger from bigger muscles.

    DOMS didn't affect your ability to ride the bike. What does this tell you?

    So nearly two decades of studying this stuff and every one of your Myth Busters was Busted. I would seriously be asking for my tuition fees back.
     
  14. Felt_Rider

    Felt_Rider Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2004
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    27
    Serious Chris

    I am not sure what your goals are, but if I may add my opinion on your routine. It is just a thought and if you desire to keep it arranged like you do that is fine.

    You train back, dead lifts and squats all in the same work out and then was able to ride home.

    If your goal is gaining strength in dead lifts or squats consider not doing them on the same day. That is typical of many powerlifters to not put two major movements on the same day. They focus on squats one day and deadlifts on another day.

    It is kind of like the concept of burning matches in cycling where an individual has only "x" amount of matches in their book. Once they burn all their matches they cannot be reproduced and will not be available again during that event.

    To gain strength is also very similar to improving one's functional threshold. So in order to gain strength you have to train with progressive overload or heavy weight, low reps. In lifting that may be >80% of 1 rep max just as in cycling one may train >80% of FT.

    If you train to improve strength in squats you would want to be efficient in coming off the street cold and warming up to hit those "training" sets, which for many power lifters you will hear them say, "triples." That is a common term. Weight heavy enough to attempt a 3 rep set and to safely do this you will need spotters on lifts like squats and bench.

    If you have done this for squats you will have burned matches (using cycling terms since we are on a cycling forum /img/vbsmilies/smilies/smile.gif) and more than likely, unless you are super human, you will not have anything left to properly work on the dead lifts. That is why true strength athletes typically do not put the two on the same day.

    But if you are just a lifter and you are just trying to improve your general leg strength than it perfectly fine to have both on the same day if you understand that one of those movements are not going to improve. But just to let you know that the true competitive lifters will not classify you as a strength athlete. Instead they would just see you as a guy that lifts weights. In similar fashion many people ride bikes as a recreational hobby, but fewer actually train to improve their functional threshold.

    Like fergie stated if you were to properly train for strength in lifting you would really struggle to walk out to the car, much less, be able to ride home on a bike. Back in the day when I was competitive in lifting that would be the case. If I trained to improve my squats I had to put dead lifts several days away in order to train properly or to hit those sets requiring >80% max. I have to admit these days I am a "has been" as my old training partner used to tease me. All I can do is reflect back to my glory days of hitting those heavy squats so I admittedly fall into the category of just a guy lifting weights present day. Some street lingo calls that "maintenance lifting," but the I like the phrase, "you are either training or detraining." I am unfortunately detraining in strength and my strength is going down each year because I am not training that aspect as hard as I used to.

    So to be training in cycling requires a progressive stress load and so does strength training and there lies the problem, IMO, for the argument that one can do both. Most normal humans cannot recover from both training activities and do well so I am always skeptical when someone says they do both and they could potentially raise their 1 rep max threshold and at the same time raise their functional threshold. When I hear that my experience has me thinking they are not really training as hard in one or the other.

    Believe me I would be in a blissful state of mind if lifting improved my cycling performance, but it has not. If anything I fully realize that I would have more time to focus on improving my functional threshold if I dropped lifting and focused on cycling, but I do not intend to compete in cycling so I am one of those "cross fit" people as the new trendy label applies.
     
  15. VadarStrikesBack

    VadarStrikesBack Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    2,023
    Likes Received:
    82
    This is one of the greatest threads of 2010.

    Golden.
     
  16. jhuskey

    jhuskey Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2003
    Messages:
    10,607
    Likes Received:
    341
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by VadarStrikesBack . This is one of the greatest threads of 2010.

    Golden.
    Yes ,everyone loves a good pissing contest but I am in the opinion that it may degrade further and get out of hand.
    Contestants please remember to keep it civil.
     
  17. Threshold

    Threshold New Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2010
    Messages:
    56
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sorry?... lol.
     
  18. Chapeau!

    Chapeau! New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    1
    I'm back to bust some balls.

    Hold your horses, your not training world champions just yet.

    You've been doing it for 2 decades & not one consistent champion.

    Says it all really.


    One example?. You need to do a lot better than that.


    That's not strength training.



    How about we go and ask Fabian Cancellara, Anna Meares, Lance Armstrong, Victoria Pendleton, Chris Hoy etc etc etc shall we.

    Some of the most successful cyclists of all time.

    CYCLISTS YOUR NOT BREEDING & haven't for the past 2 decades.


    Of course its strength training. DOMS is just a by product for a beginner.

    Strength training is exactly that, strength (CNS stimulation). Start getting over the fact weight training doesn't neccessarily mean training/gaining muscle mass.
     
  19. Chapeau!

    Chapeau! New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2010
    Messages:
    593
    Likes Received:
    1
    Unfortunatly, Fabian Cancellara, Anna Meares, Lance Armstrong, Victoria Pendleton, Chris Hoy, Shanaze Reade, Tony Martin etc etc may disagree with you on that instance felt.

    To be a great athlete you have to train force & velocity to achieve greater power, we are witness to this across a broad spectrum of sports.

    Don't place masses of emphasis on just velocity (speed). You need to produce force at the pedal (strength), like a Cancellara, like Hoy, to become successful & lots of it.

    People think cycling is all VO2. To push a pedal, to push HUGE gears, you need HUGE strength. The ability for your CNS to fire stronger signals to the muscles, repetitively.
     
  20. fergie

    fergie Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2004
    Messages:
    1,924
    Likes Received:
    12
    Ha ha someone has crawled out from under his shell. Let me know if he has changed his tune.

    Yeah cycling involves a whole lotta force/img/vbsmilies/smilies/ROTF.gif
     
Loading...
Loading...