Weight training for Endurance track

[macaj]

Hi, I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were towards using a weight training program (eg low weight, high reps), for more endurance orientated track events such as the individual pursuit, scratch race, points race etc.
Thanks in advance.
( I posted this in the Track Racing section but realised it should've gone here)

 

[Piotr]

Hi, I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were towards using a weight training program (eg low weight, high reps), for more endurance orientated track events such as the individual pursuit, scratch race, points race etc.
Thanks in advance.
( I posted this in the Track Racing section but realised it should've gone here)

See the 'sticky' thread just above for people's thoughts on "gyming to improve power".

 

[Carrera]

You can use a weights program to train those muscles of the body that are left out during cycling. For example, the lower back. The lower back is a driving zone for leg muscular propulsion, especially when seated on a hill climb.
The thing to avoid is adding unecessary muscular bulk to the frame that would have a negative impact.
The main groups of cyclists who weight train more seriously are track riders and sprinters whereas climbers may do without it.
As you know some track riders and sprinters are more "explosive" than other types of riders so they do weight sessions to help them accelerate during a sprint e.t.c. These riders have bigger frames than the climbers.

Hi, I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were towards using a weight training program (eg low weight, high reps), for more endurance orientated track events such as the individual pursuit, scratch race, points race etc.
Thanks in advance.
( I posted this in the Track Racing section but realised it should've gone here)

 

[Alex Simmons]

Hi, I was just wondering what peoples thoughts were towards using a weight training program (eg low weight, high reps), for more endurance orientated track events such as the individual pursuit, scratch race, points race etc.
Thanks in advance.
( I posted this in the Track Racing section but realised it should've gone here)

The answer to that is "it depends".

While these events are primarily aerobic in nature and as such weight training really isn't of much value (indeed it can be detrimental to aerobic performance for a number of reasons), it does depend on where you are relative to your goals and competition, the manner in which you race and your physiological makeup.

If you are already an aerobic animal and have capacity to spare wrt your competition, then working on developing your sprint and neuromuscular power makes sense for scratch and points racing (but is of no great value for pursuiting). Mind you, if I did have such a superior aerobic engine I'd probably be more interested in gaining laps than outsprinting my competitors.

Even then, I would suggest work on NMP be done first by incorporating on the bike sprint workouts well before any weights are considered necessary. And then I'd suggest more explosive movement exercises before weights are considered. The best training is performed by replicating the joint angles, forces and velocities experienced on the bike. That is best done on the bike.

However, if you are not in the game aerobically (and don't have some functional issue to deal with), then weight training of any sort I'm afraid is pretty much a waste of valuable training time.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Speaking of detrimental and I wouldn't normally bring this up, but since we are on the topic.

I trained legs last Monday with leg press and squats and ruined my cycling training for just about the entire week. Here I am just starting to build some CTL and BAM I was hit with DOMS. Now that caught me off guard because I am very well adapted to training my legs with weights, but it happens from time to time.

Based on a post a couple weeks back about the former Aussie sprinters using weights I find it baffling. I have a pretty good amount of explosive leg strength in the gym, but it doesn't transfer to the bike for me. As Alex and others have said I find the two events to be in opposition to each other, but since I am recreational on the bike it doesn't matter. If I were competing in cycling I would be taking a trip on the "specificity bus."

I am primarily a lifter first, but I would agree with Alex, ric and others that I have found no benefit to cycling performance and most of the time it is detrimental cycling. Beneficial to overall fitness, which is my goal, but not so good for cycling by my observation.

 

[jsirabella]

Felt_Rider,

Definitely no leg training now that are getting into the PM. Trust me on this one...it will just wipe you out. Maybe during off months...

Weights stick with deadlift or clean and jerk. Make sure in either you use more upper body to perform the lift. Also twice a week max for me...

-js

Speaking of detrimental and I wouldn't normally bring this up, but since we are on the topic.

I trained legs last Monday with leg press and squats and ruined my cycling training for just about the entire week. Here I am just starting to build some CTL and BAM I was hit with DOMS. Now that caught me off guard because I am very well adapted to training my legs with weights, but it happens from time to time.

Based on a post a couple weeks back about the former Aussie sprinters using weights I find it baffling. I have a pretty good amount of explosive leg strength in the gym, but it doesn't transfer to the bike for me. As Alex and others have said I find the two events to be in opposition to each other, but since I am recreational on the bike it doesn't matter. If I were competing in cycling I would be taking a trip on the "specificity bus."

I am primarily a lifter first, but I would agree with Alex, ric and others that I have found no benefit to cycling performance and most of the time it is detrimental cycling. Beneficial to overall fitness, which is my goal, but not so good for cycling by my observation.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Felt_Rider,

Definitely no leg training now that are getting into the PM. Trust me on this one...it will just wipe you out. Maybe during off months...

Weights stick with deadlift or clean and jerk. Make sure in either you use more upper body to perform the lift. Also twice a week max for me...

-js

I can't give it up.
I have 25 years of blood, sweat & tears (literally) invested in these legs.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Based on a post a couple weeks back about the former Aussie sprinters using weights I find it baffling. I have a pretty good amount of explosive leg strength in the gym, but it doesn't transfer to the bike for me.

For sprint oriented cyclists (track match sprint, kilo riders) the gym makes sense. Even then though, one must know what one's limiters are and for many, strength isn't the limiter, it's the ability to generate power at speed. So the type of gym exercise chosen (or indeed if any at all) still depends on your personal physiology and limiters.

I am (or was I should say) plenty strong but that doesn't make me fast. Full sets of 200kg down to parallel free standing squats attest to my strength but I was still s l o w (relative to my match sprint mates). Hence, if I was going to train for the sprint, then the training I needed most was power at high speed. You can't train that in the gym, it can only be done on the bike.

 

[Carrera]

Squats are incredibly demanding on the whole body as well as the legs. If you squat hard before you ride, entertain no doubt your riding performance will rapidly deteriorate for the entire week. There may also be a fair bit of lactic acid in the muscles also to contend with.
Weights, I think, are intended to be used seasonally when attempting to counterbalance the effects of hard racing. Lance, for examlple, squatted after having recovered from cancer with the specific purpose of "rehabilitation". He had lost a lot of weight due to illness and wanted to regain some weight.
However, one exercise I have been doing that cyclists probably never do is the deadlift. I'm not saying you should do them or claiming any great, secret benefit to doing the exercise but I have experimented. This exercise builds strength in the lower back, strengthens the forearms and grip and works many other muscles. It's only drawback is the trap muscles and shoulders tend to get bigger.
Leg presses I think are a waste of time as the lower back isn't hit and the leg press itself is so similar to cycling motion, I don't see the point. Squats are O.K. but will more than likely be too hard-hitting on the legs.

Speaking of detrimental and I wouldn't normally bring this up, but since we are on the topic.

I trained legs last Monday with leg press and squats and ruined my cycling training for just about the entire week. Here I am just starting to build some CTL and BAM I was hit with DOMS. Now that caught me off guard because I am very well adapted to training my legs with weights, but it happens from time to time.

Based on a post a couple weeks back about the former Aussie sprinters using weights I find it baffling. I have a pretty good amount of explosive leg strength in the gym, but it doesn't transfer to the bike for me. As Alex and others have said I find the two events to be in opposition to each other, but since I am recreational on the bike it doesn't matter. If I were competing in cycling I would be taking a trip on the "specificity bus."

I am primarily a lifter first, but I would agree with Alex, ric and others that I have found no benefit to cycling performance and most of the time it is detrimental cycling. Beneficial to overall fitness, which is my goal, but not so good for cycling by my observation.

 

[Carrera]

"I have a pretty good amount of explosive leg strength in the gym, but it doesn't transfer to the bike for me."

There comes a point, I think, when actual leg strength surpasses what's required to crank the pedals. In such a case, the muscle begins to create resistance and the resistance causes the rider to burn out more rapidly.
For a recreational rider like myself it doesn't really matter but it's possible deadlifts may be more of a compromise and the fact they strengthen the lower back could even be a plus.

Speaking of detrimental and I wouldn't normally bring this up, but since we are on the topic.

I trained legs last Monday with leg press and squats and ruined my cycling training for just about the entire week. Here I am just starting to build some CTL and BAM I was hit with DOMS. Now that caught me off guard because I am very well adapted to training my legs with weights, but it happens from time to time.

Based on a post a couple weeks back about the former Aussie sprinters using weights I find it baffling. I have a pretty good amount of explosive leg strength in the gym, but it doesn't transfer to the bike for me. As Alex and others have said I find the two events to be in opposition to each other, but since I am recreational on the bike it doesn't matter. If I were competing in cycling I would be taking a trip on the "specificity bus."

I am primarily a lifter first, but I would agree with Alex, ric and others that I have found no benefit to cycling performance and most of the time it is detrimental cycling. Beneficial to overall fitness, which is my goal, but not so good for cycling by my observation.

 

[Steve_B]

Hence, if I was going to train for the sprint, then the training I needed most was power at high speed.

When you say "speed", do you mean leg speed (the cadence used in a match sprint) or bicycle speed (or both)?

 

[jsirabella]

Keep in mind what you have invested in your new toy!...

Trust me you will not loose your 25 years on investment...nutrition and recovery are the keys to not loosing it.

-js

I can't give it up.
I have 25 years of blood, sweat & tears (literally) invested in these legs.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Keep in mind what you have invested in your new toy!...

Trust me you will not loose your 25 years on investment...nutrition and recovery are the keys to not loosing it.

-js

I know, I know, but.........sits at the keyboard with no real justification to think up

 

[Alex Simmons]

When you say "speed", do you mean leg speed (the cadence used in a match sprint) or bicycle speed (or both)?

Both.