weight training

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by jazz50, Jan 1, 2003.

  1. jazz50

    jazz50 New Member

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    I have just started back in the gym to prepare for riding in the spring. What do you recommend for # sets & reps for strength training. I'm looking at a 6 - 8 week program for now.
     
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  2. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Although you haven't given us much to go on...! I'd suggest that if you're an endurance rider of some sort, then just stick to cycle training, as weight training isn't important.<br /><br />Ric
     
  3. jazz50

    jazz50 New Member

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    Thanks for your response. You are correct..... I am an endurance rider. My goal is to complete 3 or 4 160km rides this coming summer. Training in the winter is indoors from now until April/May. I was looking at strength training as a supplement to the stationary bike, at least until I can get back on the road.
     
  4. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    I'm not sure why you have to stay indoors until April/May... can you not get out at the weekends at all?<br /><br />Nonetheless, *depending on your fitness level*, weight training won't have any positive effect on your cycling performance.<br /><br />The limiting factor in 160km rides is aerobic ability/endurance, weight training will only have an effect on your strength.<br /><br />Long rides (albeit somewhat boring) can be acheived indoors. if you are time limited, then shorter, moderately intense training might be a better idea.<br /><br />Ric
     
  5. maarten

    maarten New Member

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    well Rickstern I dont agree with your answer.<br /><br />A study done By Thorwald Veneberg for his Rabobank team proved specific weight training even beter then power trainig on a bicyle. A thing you have to do is get fitness exercises with similar leg momevent as cycling you surely can benefit from it not only for a short sprint but also for 1km climbs and even the long rides.<br /><br />The weight training group even showed better progress than the bicycle training group.
     
  6. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    if you could provide the reference to the study, or the methodology used, that would be very interesting...<br /><br />ric
     
  7. jazz50

    jazz50 New Member

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    I would be interested in knowing waht specific weight training program works best
     
  8. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Because weight training can't replicate the movement of cycling, and because adaptations are specific to the joint angle and velocity in which they are trained, then there really aren't any specific exercises.<br /><br />Depending on your level of fitness, there may be some gains from weight training (people who are well trained don't benefit -- performance wise -- from cross training). In people who aren't well trained then *any* form of exercise will increase your fitness level.<br /><br />Furthermore, as weight training increases strength, and strength is *not* a limiting factor in endurance cycling and as weights do not help aerobic pathways, weight training can't be considered useful for endurance cycling.<br /><br />The majority of the research bears this out, i.e., cross training has no benefit to the dominant exercise modality, even in exercises that appear to be very similar. Accordingly, weight training will make you better at lifting weights, but won't help endurance cycling performance.<br /><br />It's also worth bearing in mind that during the initial ~ 6 weeks of weight training, there is very little increase in strength even though you may have (e.g.) doubled the amount of weight you can lift. Simply, this is the process of increased neuromuscular adaptation, and accordingly there won't be any strength increases to transfer.<br /><br />I have an article on this topic coming out in the next few days at www.cyclingnews.com. <br /><br />Ric<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
     
  9. maarten

    maarten New Member

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    Fiets magazine text in Dutch Magzine number 1 of 2001<br />site of magazine www.fiets.nl<br /><br />Was a scientific test by the rabobank team <br /><br />16 cyclists(competion cyclist so no beginners) included 8 doing only bike training 8 replacing part of the bike training by weight training<br /><br />excercise leg press, squat, step-up and leg pull<br /><br />Progress results<br /><br />1 30sec max effort<br />2 MLSS<br />3 TT 1hrgroup1 bike endurance training vs group 2 power training<br />4 weeks 9 weeks<br /><br />1 -4.4%vs +4.3 -5.3%vs +3.9%<br />2 +4.9%vs +6.5% +8.1% vs +10.8%<br />3 +3.0% vs +4.7% +7.9% vs 11.2% <br /><br />Must be possible to order the magazine article also states more info www.admotion.nl or e-mail [email protected] <br /><br />I also know one of the local guys over here graduated on a thesis comparing power training on indoor trainer vs fitness center contact Cristophe Huybrighs [email protected]<br />hotmail.com If e-mail not valid anymore contact me I'll call somenone who must know it<br />
     
  10. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    I've only had a chance to look at the abstract, it's a paper in EJAP. The authors note that the explosive weight training only affected 30-sec max efforts (STP), by not causing a decrease in performance, whilst the cycling only group only undertook endurance rides.<br /><br />I do need to read the full paper, but it looks initially as all the explosive weight training did is *prevent* a *decrease* in STP. There are many other studies showing that this (STP) and other performance factors are better trained (i.e., increase) with cycle specific training.<br /><br />Even if weights increased 30-sec performance, how would this benefit the original poster for their 160-km rides...?<br /><br />Ric
     
  11. maarten

    maarten New Member

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    Ric,<br /><br />quote from admotion:<br />&quot;It is concluded that replacing a portion of endurance training by explosive strength training prevents a decrease in STP without compromising gains in endurance performance of trained cyclists.&quot;<br /><br /><br />Have only read the article a while ago not full paper but I mentioned the progress numbers 10.8% for MlSS and 11.2% for TT being about 3%better than the duration group(altough not statistically significant the 3% difference this is the 10% procent progress is significant) . Seems To me that MlSS or Time Trial capabilities are maybe not perfect but an indication for long distance capabilities.<br /><br />You are talking about Point one of the small resume of my earlier post where to me point 2 and 3 are relevant for the endurance work. <br />Where results seems to show a nice progress for the power training group even better as the endurance group(difference not statistically significant but nice progress for both types of training around 10% for 9 weeks period). <br /><br />I only claim that based upon the info I have considerable specific progress is possible by ways of power training. I don't agree with your thesis that this is of none importance, it might and there are possibly better ways of training, but the ultimate training sadly doesn't exist and is probabely differnet to everyone. <br />IMO when somone chooses for the gym there are nice possibilities to make progress for training in the gym, but I would advice to do the combination of gym and outdoors.<br /><br /><br />seems taht information and certainly the english one is more limited on website than in magazine also maybe interesting BOK-Project &quot;Krachttraining voor wielrenners&quot; available for 5$ by the dutch olympic comitee<br />
     
  12. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Like i said previously, i've only (thus far) read the abstract. But the authors conclusion in the abstract of the actual paper doesn't lead one to conclude that it affects endurance performance, i.e., they stated it prevented a decrease in 30-sec effort. The overwhelming evidence in peer reviewed scientific journals, does not support the idea that cross training has a performance benefit.<br /><br />Trying to convince me that weight training has an effect on endurance performance, with a paper that has no statistically significant evidence isn't overly convincing to me.<br /><br />There is no good evidence that I'm aware of, that shows that weight training has a significant effect on endurance performance. In fact, the evidence suggests that it may be detrimental to aerobic performance, as increased hypertrophy through weight training, would lead to a decrease in mitochondrial density.<br /><br />Strength is not a limiting factor in endurance cycling, and (endurance) cyclists are (typically) no stronger than age and sex matched, healthy individuals.<br /><br />I don't know, what specific information you have, but if you do a search in the primary scientific literature, such as on Pub-Med, you'll see that the overwhelming majority of research shows no benefit to endurance with weight training, in trained individuals.<br /><br />I don't disagree that going to the gym will make you stronger (if by going to the gym - you mean that the athlete does some sort of weight training -- i have no argument with this). However, as i've previously mentioned cycling isn't strength limited, the very low to moderate power outputs required to be successful, even at the very highest levels (i.e., TdeF) require very little force. Most (all healthy people??) matched individuals can likely ride at the power required to win e.g., the TdeF. However, the ability to keep riding at that power is what is lacking, and weight training won't affect that.<br /><br />Weight training doesn't increase aerobic ability (e.g., TTpace, LT, VO2max, etc.) as it doesn't provide the stimulus needed to cause adaptations that are central to aerobic performance (e.g., increased capillary density, increase in type i fibres, increased mitochondrial density, increases in aerobic enzymes, etc.).<br /><br />Ric
     
  13. maarten

    maarten New Member

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    I quote:<br /><br />Trying to convince me that weight training has an effect on endurance performance, with a paper that has no statistically significant evidence isn't overly convincing to me.<br /><br />There is no statistic significance in the weight training being better than duration group for endurance work, there although is certainly significance to the fact that both duration group and power group make progress in endurance work and this 10% or more progress is significant i'll higlight the numbers in my previous posting first numbers are duration group after vs is weight groups mesured progress <br /><br />I quote again:<br /><br />Weight training doesn't increase aerobic ability (e.g., TTpace, LT, VO2max, etc.) as it doesn't provide the stimulus needed to cause adaptations that are central to aerobic performance (e.g., increased capillary density, increase in type i fibres, increased mitochondrial density, increases in aerobic enzymes, etc.).<br /><br />I again refer to my previous post with the progress numbers where the group who substituted part of the endurance work by weight at least matched the endurance groups progress in TT, MLSS <br /><br />I think most of the confusion is because the resume doesn't give the table i mentioned earlier an my representation isn't that clear. But the table I have Mentions a significant progress for weight and endurance group for TT MLSS but they can't conclude safely which one's better and that's my main point you can substitute endurance by weight(to a certain extend), It light not be better but its just as good.<br /><br />I don't know if you or someone you know can read dutch? If you can i Might copy the article and fax it to you.<br /><br />
     
  14. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    To reiterate again, the only statistically significant effect is that 30-sec all-out power did not decline over 9 weeks of training with the weights compared to endurance training. This does NOT mean that weight training is as good cycle training.<br /><br />If you wanted to *increase* your 30-sec all-out power (not prevent a decline), then you'd be best off doing on the bike efforts that matched this.<br /><br />Weight training is *not* as good for building endurance bike power as bike training. This study does NOT suggest that. Even if it did, it would be one study against many studies showing no benefit or a decrease in bike performance. I again reiterate, the main bulk of the primary scientific evidence does not see an improvement in the dominant modality, with a secondary sport training.<br /><br />Weight training does *not* help aerobic pathways, and accordingly does not increase aerobic power. The stimulus is incorrect. The stimulus from weight training would only increase aerobic pathways, in *untrained* people, where *any* exercise would be of benefit.<br /><br />Ric
     
  15. Blimp

    Blimp New Member

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    C'mon guys, settle.<br /><br />In a balanced program, surely some form of weight training has some merit? After all, who wants to end up with big thighs and skinny arms...
     
  16. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Blimp,<br /><br />That's actually a different question, and one that *may* require a different answer.<br /><br />Actually, i do! :). Just cycling since 1985...<br /><br />Ric
     
  17. Blimp

    Blimp New Member

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    Cycling (off and on) since 1971...
     
  18. admin

    admin Guest

    [quote author=Blimp link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=0#msg23944 date=1041585934]<br />C'mon guys, settle.<br /><br />In a balanced program, surely some form of weight training has some merit? After all, who wants to end up with big thighs and skinny arms...<br />[/quote]<br /><br />That would depend on two things<br /><br />1) Are you wanting to go well on the bike?<br /><br />or<br /><br />2) Do you wanna look good?<br /><br />I think for most of us a combination of the two suit........ a top road cyclist doesn't need a strong powerful build, Robbie Mc'ewen would look like a skinny weena in an under 16's netball match! He can out climb, out time trial and out sprint all of us ;) <br /><br />*puts on flame suit*<br /><br />cheers!
     
  19. Blimp

    Blimp New Member

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    Look good??? I wouldn't look good if I appeared in public with $100 notes glued all over me.
     
  20. admin

    admin Guest

    [quote author=Blimp link=board=19;threadid=2823;start=0#msg23950 date=1041587819]<br />Look good??? I wouldn't look good if I appeared in public with $100 notes glued all over me. <br />[/quote]<br />hahaha me either ;D
     
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