Weight Training?

[Enriss]

Most of cycling takes place in aerobic land, but there ARE portions of most races where you go into Anaerobia, aren't there?

 

[tonyzackery]

Most of cycling takes place in aerobic land, but there ARE portions of most races where you go into Anaerobia, aren't there?

Absolutely, and weight training is not going to help you when you go there...

 

[Enriss]

Because training the anaerobic system isn't specific enough to the portions of a cycling event which are spent under anaerobic conditions?

 

[tonyzackery]

Precisely.
If you anticipate having to go into the red zone (anaerobic) during a cycling event, to best create a situation for an adaptation to take place would be to replicate that situation while cycle training, not weight training. Seems so basic that it should go without saying, but...

 

[Wlfdg]

Negative. Those lifts recruit those fibers necessary for those lifts more efficiently than anything else. Cycling specific exercises will recruit those fibers necessary for cycling more efficiently than any other exercise. Are familiar with the term "specificity"?

So only strongmen, Olympic lifters, powerlifters and bodybuilders should weight train?

So people like Charles Poliquin, Charles Staley, Eric Cressey, Chris Carmichael and Dan John are just wasting time with weights training all these non-strength athletes? You should really call these guys up and set them straight.

Crosstraining has no value what so ever? Olympic lifting has no carry over?


As far as your reference to feeding a baby milk, I wasn't referring to the sports in particular but the absolute ignorance of the non-weight training beliefs of the coaches of the past.

WOW!

 

[Felt_Rider]

If my 30 consistent years of strength training would only help me on those hour long climbs this weekend. At mile 80 I will hit the 3rd mountain and close to the summit I will hit a 20% gradient. My experience as a long time gym rat has shown me that doing triples building up squat strength does not compare to climbing for more than an hour at a time.

A few yards from the top of that steep gradient carrying my mass up that hill I will be wishing I was one of those super skinny frail weak boned ultra light cyclists that have bad posture and other nasty unbalanced features that you say they have because they will be looking down the hill laughing at my struggle.

If I were a competitive cyclists I would be encouraging all of you to start lifting.

 

[dhk2]

This topic just keeps coming back. Really makes me wonder if any of the pro-lifting proponents have ever taken a look at the world's top road cyclists? Most remember to zip up their jersey's for the finishline photos, but when they don't, it's pretty scary.... at least to those of us who like food.

I'm having a fun time envisioning how fast that pudgy powerlifter could climb hills..... bet it would be a real hoot to watch him get schooled by one of our local 140 lb wimps.

On a personal note, I spent a lot of timing at the Y this winter during the bad weather months working on upper body weight machines a couple of times a week (alternating with trainer bike). My progress was great, could really see increases in upper body, abs and back strength. I did the weight training to help with overall conditioning as I keep seeing it recommended for us over-the-hill guys. On the bike this spring, not surprisingly the 12 lbs pounds I gained hasn't helped one bit. Only plus is that my arms and chest look better in the tight jerseys

 

[tonyzackery]

^^^LOL! Your emotional investment in your argument is showing, and it's not pretty.

Everything you and I've said to this point has already been said a thousand times so I'm going to refer you hereafter to the threads I posted...it's obvious I'm not going to change your belief and you can't provide any quantifiable evidence for me to change what's been mine and many other cyclists' experience...I'll continue training for my cycling races as I presently do...carry on...

 

[Wlfdg]

What's your attraction to EDT? As far as I can tell, it's a bodybuilding program advocated by an olympic weightlifting coach. As far as I can tell, the average cyclist should be able to gain a healthy level of strength from a few months on SS followed by whatever maintenance method they prefer.

Do you feel this isn't sufficient weightlifting for a cyclist?

EDT isn't necessarily specific to bodybuilding. It can be organized to be an excellent form of training for sarcoplasmic hypertrophy.

I'm not a bodybuilder but have had great results increasing my strength and explosiveness with using Olympic, Olympic variations and power lifts in an EDT format. The thing I really like about is the time limit factor. I really enjoy the competition against myself and my previous training session. I think knowing that a workout is going to be finished in a specific time frame is very motivational.

The 5X5 programs are great for the fitness minded cyclist for sure. I think for a competitive cyclist they are too rigid to that format. They are also great for adding mass. I can't imagine too many cyclists want to gain weight?

 

[Enriss]

Crosstraining has no value what so ever? Olympic lifting has no carry over?

People around here think strength and conditioning coaches are just trying to make a quick buck off of unsuspecting cyclists.

This topic just keeps coming back. Really makes me wonder if any of the pro-lifting proponents have ever taken a look at the world's top road cyclists? Most remember to zip up their jersey's for the finishline photos, but when they don't, it's pretty scary.... at least to those of us who like food.

Have you ever taken a look at Chris Hoy? He's not exactly sporting the emaciated look.

I'm having a fun time envisioning how fast that pudgy powerlifter could climb hills..... bet it would be a real hoot to watch him get schooled by one of our local 140 lb wimps.

On a personal note, I spent a lot of timing at the Y this winter during the bad weather months working on upper body weight machines a couple of times a week (alternating with trainer bike). My progress was great, could really see increases in upper body, abs and back strength. I did the weight training to help with overall conditioning as I keep seeing it recommended for us over-the-hill guys. On the bike this spring, not surprisingly the 12 lbs pounds I gained hasn't helped one bit. Only plus is that my arms and chest look better in the tight jerseys

You don't have to be pudgy like Louie Simmons or Shane Hamman to lift weights. To set weightlifting records, sure, but you can stay lean AND strong at the same time.

 

[Felt_Rider]

When I saw a post that said 100% WRONG it was like the shiny spinner bait trolling in the water that caught my attention and could not help but take the bait.

I have a blog titled Cycling Addiction, but those who know me well also know that my real addiction is lifting. I train with weights 5 days a week and I am in my 28th year of lifting consistently. I have trained or consulted top level lifters and bodybuilders for many years both locally and through the web. I have had the priviledge to train alongside world class olympic lifters, power lifters and bodybuilders. I successfully competed in bodybuilding for over 10 years and have practical experience in about every form of strength training there is. My techinique is the not the greatest in all lifts like the deadlift but I can coach others on how to do those lifts properly. I have written multitudes of programs for nutrition and various lifting goals and have seen success in those clients.

However, my experience has also brought me to a place of appreciating specificity in all athletic events. IMO - specificity and progressive overload requires full focus and can rarely share that precious and limited recovery time. The recovery time is one of the most crucial aspects of intense training. There are events like the biathalon, triathalon, garage games and so on that require a broader range of training, but here on this forum the topic heading is Cycling Training and it specific.

I would challenge anyone to step up and present on this thread a written program outlining how you would get a Cat-3 racer to a Cat-2 level with both strength training and with cycling training. Show us the outline and defend how that person can recover from a program that is progressive in both activities, drug free, and have full recovery before the next training event. I would absolutely love to see it written out and defended.

If I am an olympic lifter that aspires to be a better olympic lifter I am going to put 100% into olympic lifting as I have witnessed world class olympic lifters when I was at Coffee's Gym. When I watched world class power lifters I did not see a single one of them doing marathon training as a supplement to their power lifting. They focused 100% on training the 3 lifts and focused 100% on recovering from those training events.

Taking what I know and applying it to what I know little of, which is endurance cycling I can still understand the principles of progressive overload training, recovery and adaptation and how important that is. For me personally I am attempting to do what you are saying. I train 5 days a week lifting and I train about 9 hours a week (if life doesn't interfere) in cycling, however, I will not progress in either quite as well as if I focused 100% in one or the other. That is just the facts.

I commonly experience good leg training days where it takes several days to recover and because of this I cannot reach those upper L3 and L4 training zones for cycling that is important for me to become a more powerful cyclists. I have experienced the opposite where I had cycling training in those upper zones to the point where I could not squat as heavy.

There is a saying that I hold to, "you're either training or you are detraining." If one interferes with the other you are detraining in one of them or potentially detraining in both. For me since I retired from bodybuilding competitions and picked up cycling my strength has gradually dropped because now my strength training is sharing recovery time with endurance cycling recovery time. This morning was a good example where I normally train arms on Friday, but skipped it because I have a century event early tomorrow morning. So it is practical to see that my arms and all bodyparts are detraining this week in strength because I want to be fully rested for the event tomorrow.

Again if someone could take a person, write out a progressive training program that has the individual excelling in both events simultaneously I would be extremely impressed, but to be honest if you could find the person that can withstand that type of training I will still be more impressed with that person's blessed genetics than I will be of the training program.

If the olympic lifter jumping for joy in that picture could go from performing that lift to beating a pack of Cat-3 cyclists the next day on a 100 mile road race in the mountains I would be extremely impressed. If that lifter could perform that same jump for 5 hours straight I would be extremely impressed. He might be able to do it for only few minutes at most which tells me that his explosive strength is useful for a very short duration of time and has little use to an endurance event that requires hours of sustained power.

There is no one here on this forum who would be more delighted in the news that strength training would be beneficial to cycling than me. I love lifting more than cycling and would be excited of the news, but I know the truth about training efficiency, progressive overload, training or detraining, and the very important recovery aspect.

I am not going to say that all what I wrote is 100% Truthful, but I will say this has been my observations over the years, my understanding of sport science journals and how all of this has shaped my training beliefs. I think there will be many that agree with me and there will be many that will not.

 

[DancenMacabre]

So much debate about this topic, will it ever end? Rhetorical question I know...

My view of weight training designed for strength gains as this pertains to endurance cycling is simple actually. If you understand the basic adaptations that each activity causes, then in my view, you see that they are generally opposing. That should make it clear that if you want to maximize your performance in one of these activities, then you probably should be excluding the other activity. Not everyone cares or even wants to maximize their performance in one realm exclusively so there's room for a mix of things...

Threshold intervals, SST, etc, this type of training will increase mitochondrial density, build capillaries, increase glycogen storage, etc. In the long term though it is also likely to retype some fast-twitch fibers into more endurance friendly fibers. That's certainly not going to help you increase your maximal power production for short durations (< 15 seconds) or how much you put up on a squat rack...

Whereas weight training done with an eye for strength gains will probably lead to hypertrophy. What happens when you make a muscle bigger? Then you get what Stephens and others call, "mitochondrial dilution", which in practice means you are reducing your mitochondrial density. And we know mitochondrial density is an important player in endurance performance. Oh and then there's the matter of hypertrophy of muscle leading to increase in weight, lean weight sure, but still, more mass to carry around. So now you've got less mitochondrial density + more weight, which sounds like a formula for poorer endurance performance.

I've done a lot of dedicated weight/strength training in the past when was that was my 100% focus. My endurance performance was horrible at the time, but I certainly was far stronger. Presently, since endurance bicycle racing is my focus, I haven't touched a barbell at all - I'd even say doing so would be detrimental to my performance on the bike.

There are many great reasons to strength train as much as there are to perform endurance training. How much you do of each of these activities should depend on your goals.

If I were a speed trackie, I'd definitely be in the weight training camp, although with a great deal of specific on-bike speed & strength training. If I were wanting general health and wellness with no concern for maximal performance in any one sport, then I'd lift and bike ride...

 

[64Paramount]

Good write up on your personal experience with weight training and it's effect on your cycling, Felt.

Dancen, IMHO you are a very good explainer. Your post here was helpful to me in understanding the relationship between strength and endurance.

 

[jollyrogers]

I was a professional kickboxer, Thai boxer and an MMA fighter in the early days of the sport.

There is more to cycling than steady state cardio. If you sit and spin in flats, low angle climbs and on rollers/trainers than all you are doing is steady state cardio. If you climb, tackle technical terrain or sprint than you are recruiting HTMU/fast twitch fibers. That is where weight training comes into play in terms of on bike performance. Explosiveness! The Olympic lifts can benefit a cyclist with the same kind of explosiveness that enables 360lb. Shane Hamman with the ability to do a standing backflip. He's 5'9" and can dunk basketball with 2 hands.

So I guess that means no study.

Wonder if that guy could dunk a basketball after running a 10K all out.

Even short maximal efforts with full recovery between repetitions become become more aerobic and use more Type I fibers over time.

To quote the good Dr. Coggan, "It's an aerobic sport, damnit"

 

[Enriss]

I wonder if your question about dunking a basketball is relevant, since if anyone runs a 10k "all out" one would expect that they're "all out" of energy, and probably aren't up for much of anything in the way of jumping.

What do you mean about short maximal efforts becoming more aerobic and using more Type I fibers, even with full recovery? One would expect that a full recovery would bring you back to the condition you started in or slightly better with the whole supercompensation thing, unless you don't actually mean full recovery.

 

[jollyrogers]

I wonder if your question about dunking a basketball is relevant, since if anyone runs a 10k "all out" one would expect that they're "all out" of energy, and probably aren't up for much of anything in the way of jumping.

You were the one who brought up the topic of this weight lifter being able to execute the explosive moves. The problem with that scenario is that, outside of match sprinting, explosive cycling efforts generally do not happen in a fully rested/recovered state. They occur in the midst of intense aerobic activity. A rider's sprint power at the end of a race is a fraction of his/her peak power.

What do you mean about short maximal efforts becoming more aerobic and using more Type I fibers, even with full recovery? One would expect that a full recovery would bring you back to the condition you started in or slightly better with the whole supercompensation thing, unless you don't actually mean full recovery.

Some would expect such a thing, but it isn't correct. That's why cycling is an aerobic sport and favors those with aerobic development over those with explosive anaerobic ability.

Both the creatine-phosphate and the anaerobic-glycolytic cycles' contributions to total power decrease after only 3 maximal repetitions of 30 seconds separated by complete rest. Imagine how much decrease there is in anaerobic energy production at the end of a hard 60 minute crit.

 

[DancenMacabre]

64Paramount - Glad that was useful to you

Enriss - the reason these maximal efforts become more aerobically fueled is that anaerobic energy production seems to have both a short & long term recovery cycle. IOW, part of your anaerobic work capacity can be regenerated in a short period of time however a portion of it cannot. That means as you engage in a series of these maximal efforts you will not have all the available anaerobic energy as when you did you first one. In addition, the PCr system will also not be fully recharged either, and this system is relevant for a 30 second bout. Thus again, you are left with less non-aerobic energy. Consequently, more of the energy for each subsequent sprint bout, has to come from aerobic sources.

You can see this in pursuiting for instance when even Olympic level competitors cannot match their qualifying times in later rounds, despite hours of rest between efforts. If you do several level 6 sessions, you'll also observe a similar effect.

 

[Enriss]

You were the one who brought up the topic of this weight lifter being able to execute the explosive moves.

Strange, I don't remember that. I thought it was Wlfdg who brought it up.

Some would expect such a thing; they would be wrong. That's why cycling is an aerobic sport and favors those with aerobic development over those with explosive anaerobic ability.

Both the creatine-phosphate and the anaerobic-glycolytic cycles' contributions to total power decrease after only 3 maximal repetitions of 30 seconds separated by complete rest. Imagine how much decrease there is in anaerobic energy production at the end of a hard 60 minute crit.

Then obviously we have different definitions of complete rest. I would say that a rider if a rider does a sprint at 800 watts, and then tries again later and only has 600 watts in his legs, that he hasn't fully recovered from the things he's done in the mean time, and is thus not fully rested. Maybe I'm just inappropriately confusing full recovery with complete rest.

Enriss - the reason these maximal efforts become more aerobically fueled is that anaerobic energy production seems to have both a short & long term recovery cycle. IOW, part of your anaerobic work capacity can be regenerated in a short period of time however a portion of it cannot. That means as you engage in a series of these maximal efforts you will not have all the available anaerobic energy as when you did you first one. In addition, the PCr system will also not be fully recharged either, and this system is relevant for a 30 second bout. Thus again, you are left with less non-aerobic energy. Consequently, more of the energy for each subsequent sprint bout, has to come from aerobic sources.

You can see this in pursuiting for instance when even Olympic level competitors cannot match their qualifying times in later rounds, despite hours of rest between efforts. If you do several level 6 sessions, you'll also observe a similar effect.

Cool, thanks for the post.

 

[jollyrogers]

Strange, I don't remember that. I thought it was Wlfdg who brought it up.[/quote}

Whoops - you are correct. Sorry about that.

Then obviously we have different definitions of complete rest. I would say that a rider if a rider does a sprint at 800 watts, and then tries again later and only has 600 watts in his legs, that he hasn't fully recovered from the things he's done in the mean time, and is thus not fully rested. Maybe I'm just inappropriately confusing full recovery with complete rest.

I don't know that you're confusing anything, but 4 minutes recovery from 30 seconds "on" is a greater recovery:work cycle than I've ever experienced in a bike race.

DM is right on the money with her comments on specific adaptations and mitochondrial dilution. I've never heard it referred to in that manner, but it's accurate and provides a nice visual image as well. Thanks DM.

 

[Enriss]

I don't know that you're confusing anything, but 4 minutes recovery from 30 seconds "on" is a greater recovery:work cycle than I've ever experienced in a bike race.

Alright, that makes sense, but then it's not really fair to say "complete rest" since you probably won't be completely rested during the race.

DM is right on the money with her comments on specific adaptations and mitochondrial dilution. I've never heard it referred to in that manner, but it's accurate and provides a nice visual image as well. Thanks DM.

On thing I'd wondered about wrt the mitochondrial dilution argument, is that if endurance racing increases mitochondrial density and eventually hits a peak density, and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy increases the size of the muscle and thus decreases the mitochondrial density, shouldn't this allow for another bout of mitochondrial density gains? Would a racer be faster if they had the same density in a larger volume of fibres?