Weights and Bike Training

[Aranxta]

Alright, I got into riding not so long ago, training with a PM, blah blah, I will spare all of you the details.

I am thinking about getting into track racing and maybe, some crits events on the road. Climbing and time trialing don't interest me. The short end of the spectrum though such as sprinting, 30, and 60 second efforts, that I enjoy.

I already read the long discussion on weight training for endurance riding. No need to rehash or argue about that here, I have at least a basic understanding of physics.

What about the racing I am targeting? Weights for a possible v'drome and/or criterium racer? Yes? No? Maybe? Existential?

If yes, then what would you do and how? Traditional, bodybuilding style work (slow and heavy) or a different approach (fast and light)?

I used to lift weights in high school (I played soccer and softball) so I know at least the basic exercises and concepts.



Should I do plenty of endurance work on the bike or more anaerobic training and sprints? All of the above I guess?

Thanks.

 

[whoawhoa]

What about the racing I am targeting? Weights for a possible v'drome and/or criterium racer? Yes? No? Maybe? Existential?

Maybe. Lifting weights will help target efforts where neuromuscular power is key. So, if you want to be a track sprinter (as in Kilo, 200m tt, match sprints or team sprint) then they are a good idea. However, they will hurt your ability to get to the finish well-rested at the end of a crit. If you're going to favor "endurance" track races, like scratch, points, etc, as well as crits, then I wouldn't lift. Just do plenty of on-the-bike sprints. IMHO, those vastly outweigh the benefits you'll get from lifting.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Climbing and time trialing don't interest me. The short end of the spectrum though such as sprinting, 30, and 60 second efforts, that I enjoy.

Weight resistance training to improve over 30s to 60s efforts? Why not try it and see for yourself.

I can't help but thinking that as a newbie in those discipline, just about anything you'll do will cause an improvement, as long as it's specific enough.

Therefore I would probably begin by direct training on the bike. You may try that for a year and see maybe?

What about the racing I am targeting? Weights for a possible v'drome and/or criterium racer? Yes? No? Maybe? Existential?

A criterium race doesn't feel like a track 60sec effort. Sounds as if you were asking : should I buy a used car or should I take piano lessons?

If you've never done crits before, again I would focus on what's required to
1) complete an event
2) complete an event finishing with the guys in front
3) win an event

If I follow your logic, that is weight resistance to improve sprinting ability, you don't need weights until item number 3

And moreover, in order to develop the higher end endurance you need to do item number 2 (complete a crit finishing somewhere in the front pack), weight resistance training my be counter productive if it prevent you from spending enough quality time at L3/4/5.

Should I do plenty of endurance work on the bike or more anaerobic training and sprints? All of the above I guess?

Thanks.

Again, try one of those crits. If you get dropped, completely out of breath, then you'll have your answer.

 

[Aranxta]

Maybe. Lifting weights will help target efforts where neuromuscular power is key. So, if you want to be a track sprinter (as in Kilo, 200m tt, match sprints or team sprint) then they are a good idea. However, they will hurt your ability to get to the finish well-rested at the end of a crit. If you're going to favor "endurance" track races, like scratch, points, etc, as well as crits, then I wouldn't lift. Just do plenty of on-the-bike sprints. IMHO, those vastly outweigh the benefits you'll get from lifting.

Ok.

My understanding is that power/weight ratio is the deciding factor in climbs, but was less important than overall power in flat racing, like a crit.

Can you really improve your sprint just by doing more of them?

I have not seen mine change much so far. Maybe a few watts here or there, but no big changes even though I do them like every ride.

 

[Aranxta]

A criterium race doesn't feel like a track 60sec effort. Sounds as if you were asking : should I buy a used car or should I take piano lessons?

Not musically talented here, so the used car will be better.

If you've never done crits before, again I would focus on what's required to
1) complete an event
2) complete an event finishing with the guys in front
3) win an event

If I follow your logic, that is weight resistance to improve sprinting ability, you don't need weights until item number 3

And moreover, in order to develop the higher end endurance you need to do item number 2 (complete a crit finishing somewhere in the front pack), weight resistance training my be counter productive if it prevent you from spending enough quality time at L3/4/5.

Again, try one of those crits. If you get dropped, completely out of breath, then you'll have your answer.

Here is why I asked the question about criteriums. Almost every one I have watched ends up in a big group sprint. It seems so long as you are fit enough to ride in the pack, then it usually comes down to a sprint. Somewhat like most of those flat stages you see in the Grand Tours, like TdF.

So back to the original question. What about weights? Do them? How? Or don't do them?

 

[whoawhoa]

Here is why I asked the question about criteriums. Almost every one I have watched ends up in a big group sprint. It seems so long as you are fit enough to ride in the pack, then it usually comes down to a sprint. Somewhat like most of those flat stages you see in the Grand Tours, like TdF.

Don't assume that just because a lot of people are there means they are all fresh and can sprint. For instance, when I was in the Cat 3's I was one of the fittest riders (by FTP) there, yet I still took as much as a 200 watt hit in peak power at the end of a race vs. a well rested sprint. And that paltry 700 watts or so was often enough to place against "real" sprinters.

 

[SolarEnergy]

Here is why I asked the question about criteriums. Almost every one I have watched ends up in a big group sprint. It seems so long as you are fit enough to ride in the pack, then it usually comes down to a sprint. Somewhat like most of those flat stages you see in the Grand Tours, like TdF.

So back to the original question. What about weights? Do them? How? Or don't do them?

We have two crit circuit here in Montreal. Wednsday crits are open to all riders. 50k. Many complain not being able to complete the event before having tried 4 or 5 times. That's fast. My opinion is that you need an FTP of 3.4w/kg to be able to finish one with the pack and probably over 4 w/kg to win it (with good sprinting abilities ideally).

The others on Tuesday are for P12 only (pros, cat1 and 2). They're bloody fast. My opinion is that you need an FTP of 3.8 w/kg to be able to finish the event without getting dropped. That's the bare minimum.

So that brings me back to my original recommendation. Try a few and see how you do. If you show a weakness that can be improved by weight resistance then it becomes a valid option, among others...

Which option would be best for you? That's a different story.

By the way, how much time available do you have per week for training?

 

[daveryanwyoming]

...Should I do plenty of endurance work on the bike or more anaerobic training and sprints? All of the above I guess?...

I got a basic piece of training advice years ago that really helped me out. Work your biggest weaknesses first but then race to your strengths. In other words if you feel comfortable going the distance at speed in a fast crit or track event like a points race, scratch race, etc. but need to add punch to your sprint then work on your neuromuscular power either through weights, on bike sprint workouts or both. But all the sprint in the world won't help if you don't get to the end of those races in the front group and in a position to jump.

The previous advice is good, but if you're trying to plan your training now and the races are months away it's tough to just go out and figure out your weaknesses. You might do some power testing, if you don't own a pm that might mean going to a decent gym and testing on a calibrated erg. Figure out your best 15s, 1 minute, 5 minute and an estimate of your 1 hour or FTP power. Translate that to power to weight and hold that up against Andy's chart for racers by category. That should help you identify your strengths and weaknesses and plan your training. Buy a copy of Hunter and Coggan's book: http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794
even if you don't own a pm. It's still a wealth of good info and should help you plan your training.

If you've read the weight lifting/cycling debates you know there are strong opinions in both camps and your interest in track events and crits seems to lean towards the pro weight training camp but you still have to go the distance at speed to use that extra power and snap.

Good luck,
Dave

 

[Aranxta]

I ride the bike about 6-8 hours every week, mostly because it gets dark early. Some people swear by trainers, but I swear at them. Tried a friend's trainer and admit, nothing has killed the joy of riding quicker than that thing. Rather ride outside in any weather than sit indoors on the bike.

Probably I could manage maybe 4-6 hours of weight training every week, since that is not limited by weather or daylight.

I have done some of those tests, read the book, etc. My strengths are in everything less than 5 minutes, especially 0-1 minute timeframe.

Is this forum more geared for enduro racing? I suspected track riders would have some opinions or lifting routines to share?

Are some v'dromes open all year? If they were I would go sooner than later.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Is this forum more geared for enduro racing? I suspected track riders would have some opinions or lifting routines to share?

Well if you consider a one hour crit or twenty minute points race "enduro racing" then yeah I guess these forums lean that way. Fact is there are a heck of a lot more roadies and track generalists in the world than dedicated track sprinters and full time kilo riders. There is a track specific forum here: http://www.cyclingforums.com/f29-track-racing.html you might find better answers there.

Are some v'dromes open all year? If they were I would go sooner than later.

Yep, there's some indoor tracks and outdoor tracks in warm climes, sort of depends on where you live.

 

[Aranxta]

Many of these posts seem to diverge from what I originally asked.

That other discussion, the 53x12 one, goes all over also but maybe a little more relevant.

I will try a track forum and see if I get more specific comments.

 

[Alex Simmons]

Many of these posts seem to diverge from what I originally asked.

That other discussion, the 53x12 one, goes all over also but maybe a little more relevant.

I will try a track forum and see if I get more specific comments.

Well you asked about enduro track/crits?

Suggest also searching the Fixed Gear Fever forum.

Just ride and have fun finding out what you like the most. If you like weights, do them.

If you are new/untrained, anything will help. If you are focussed on match sprint and/or kilo, then yes weights are typically a part of the routine. Even then you need to understand what type of weight training makes sense as different riders will benefit more from different types of weight work. And of course the other component is speed, if you ain't got fast legs, then the real track sprinters will sort you out in a hurry. Speed only comes from riding the bike.

For enduros (track scratch, points races or crits) then weights are debatable - it depends on your specific circumstances. The primary physiological demand in enduro events is aerobic conditioning and weights do not help with that, riding a bike is the best way. Indeed, even the kilo is still a highly aerobic event but with a large neuromuscular and anaerobic component as well, hence weights makes sense.

Lots of aerobic endurance work will kill pure top end speed though, so they are (for the top levele atheletes anyway) mutually exclusive domains.

Go out there and have fun with it.

Track is great. You get lots of races and can't get lost.