Weird Back Pain ... One bike, not the other

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Andrew Morris, Nov 17, 2003.

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  1. Hi Folks,

    I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...

    On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with
    a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...

    Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to handle
    bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10
    cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And would
    the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike shop, and adjust the road
    bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise
    the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it and see?

    Cheers,

    Andrew
     
    Tags:


  2. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    >
    > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    > cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h,
    > with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...
    >
    > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to handle
    > bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike are about
    > 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
    > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike shop, and adjust the
    > road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I
    > should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck
    > it and see?
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Andrew

    Dear Andrew,

    I'm puzzled.

    Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower
    rider profile?

    A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either some serious equipment problems on
    the road bike or else that your back pain is literally staggering.

    Good luck,

    Carl Fogel
     
  3. Definitely your position.

    A 10cm drop from saddle to bars is a lot, not to mind a 10 cm lower drop. If your seat is highish
    for your leg length, which it may well be, it would be astonishing if you didn't have back pain. The
    pain is telling you something. Your position is bad. It may be that your saddle is too high and the
    lower bars would worsen this effect. I used to get back-pain when my saddle was too high. A backward
    tilted saddle can also cause this. Seated square on saddle, your bare heel, foot parallel to ground,
    should be about 5mm from fully down pedal surface.
     
  4. Bruni

    Bruni Guest

    Bar ht. is definitely a factor, but don't forget the greater bump generated forces on the road bike.
    It's all a holistic mix when it comes to comfort. Tom

    --
    Bruni Bicycles "Where art meets science" brunibicycles.com
    410.426.3420 Andrew Morris <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    >
    > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what
    I
    > guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can
    > average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...
    >
    > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to handle
    > bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike are about
    > 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
    > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the
    bike
    > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant
    > headstem over, I should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it
    > a matter of suck it and see?
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Andrew
    >
    >
     
  5. Matt O'Toole

    Matt O'Toole Guest

    "Carl Fogel" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...

    > "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > > Hi Folks,
    > >
    > > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    > >
    > > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    > > cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h,
    > > with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...
    > >
    > > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to
    > > handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike
    > > are about 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower
    > > back pain?

    Probably.

    > > And would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike shop, and
    > > adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB?

    Sure. You might not need to raise your bars quite that much, but raising them some will
    probably help.

    Most road bikes *are* too low in front for most people. They're designed to fit riders' aesthetic
    sensibilities and egos rather than their bodies.

    > > I believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this
    > > going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck it and see?

    Just give it a try. Threadless stems flip over for big adjustments, and use spacers for little ones.
    Take advantage of your stem's designed-in range of adjustment.

    > Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower
    > rider profile?
    >
    > A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either some serious equipment problems on
    > the road bike or else that your back pain is literally staggering.

    Speaking from experience, 10cm difference can indeed make that much difference -- because someone
    with back problems can be much weaker in a position that's only slightly lower.

    I had a revelation a few years back. Feeling tired at the end of a long MTB ride, I was struggling
    up a not-so-steep hill. I could barely keep the pedals turning over in my usual gear. My lower back
    was tired and starting to hurt. So I sat up to rest, and riding no-hands, I shot up the hill with
    tremendous ease. When I got home, I ordered a new stem, to raise my handlebars. A mere inch made all
    the difference.

    So, raise your bars and ride some. If it doesn't help, go see a sports therapist/chiropractor/coach
    who specializes in bike fit.

    Matt O.
     
  6. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > Hi Folks,
    > >
    > > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    > >
    > > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    > > cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h,
    > > with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...
    > >
    > > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to
    > > handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike
    > > are about 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower
    > > back pain? And would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
    > > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant
    > > headstem over, I should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is
    > > it a matter of suck it and see?
    > >
    > > Cheers,
    > >
    > > Andrew
    >
    >
    > Dear Andrew,
    >
    > I'm puzzled.
    >
    > Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain bike to a road bike with a 10cm lower
    > rider profile?
    >
    > A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either some serious equipment problems on
    > the road bike or else that your back pain is literally staggering.

    Maybe the computer on the road bike isn't calibrated properly (maybe still set for the 26" wheels
    on the MTB?)

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  7. On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:31:23 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote:

    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    >
    > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    > cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h,
    > with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...

    Well, I don't know what else is going on, but the gearing is one thing. You'r talking about a 25%
    reduction in speed, for a 11% reduction in cadence. Either your gears aren't so similar, or your
    estimates of something are off.
    >
    > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to handle
    > bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike are about
    > 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain?

    I would think so. 10 com lower to the tops of the bars, or to the drops? If to the tops, your road
    bike bars would seem to be really, really low (or the mountain bike bars are high). My mountain bike
    bars are about the same position as the tops of my road bars.

    While you are checking measurements, check your knee position when the pedals are horizontal. Look
    for the ol' KOPS (knee over pedal spindle) with a plumb bob. I would guess there is a big difference
    between the two bikes in this.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | The lottery is a tax on those who fail to understand _`\(,_ | mathematics. (_)/ (_) |
     
  8. "David Kerber" <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > Hi Folks,
    > > >
    > > > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    > > >
    > > > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at
    what I
    > > > guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
    similar
    > > > gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80
    RPM,
    > > > but also get a lower back pain...
    > > >
    > > > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to
    stem,
    > > > and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I
    can
    > > > find is that the bars on the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on
    the
    > > > mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain?
    And
    > > > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into
    the bike
    > > > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the
    > > > Giant headstem over, I should raise the
    handlebars
    > > > about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck
    it
    > > > and see?
    > > >
    > > > Cheers,
    > > >
    > > > Andrew
    > >
    > >
    > > Dear Andrew,
    > >
    > > I'm puzzled.
    > >
    > > Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain bike to a road bike with a 10cm
    > > lower rider profile?
    > >
    > > A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either some serious equipment problems
    > > on the road bike or else that your back pain is literally staggering.
    >
    > Maybe the computer on the road bike isn't calibrated properly (maybe still set for the 26" wheels
    > on the MTB?)

    separate computers... I've just had a look at where my heel is relative to the pedal when fully
    extended, (try doing it with no-one to hold the bike steady ;-) ) and my leg extension appears ok...
    I also don't think it's the seat angle... Will find an Allen key, and flip the stem, and see how i
    go... if that doesn't work, will tilt the seat forward a bit
     
  9. Carl Fogel

    Carl Fogel Guest

    David Kerber <[email protected]_ids.net> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > > "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > Hi Folks,
    > > >
    > > > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    > > >
    > > > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be
    > > > a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27
    > > > km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...
    > > >
    > > > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to
    > > > handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike
    > > > are about 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower
    > > > back pain? And would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike
    > > > shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the
    > > > Giant headstem over, I should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough???
    > > > Or is it a matter of suck it and see?
    > > >
    > > > Cheers,
    > > >
    > > > Andrew
    > >
    > >
    > > Dear Andrew,
    > >
    > > I'm puzzled.
    > >
    > > Your average speed drops 25% when you switch from a mountain bike to a road bike with a 10cm
    > > lower rider profile?
    > >
    > > A loss of over 5 mph from 22 mph suggests that you have either some serious equipment problems
    > > on the road bike or else that your back pain is literally staggering.
    >
    > Maybe the computer on the road bike isn't calibrated properly (maybe still set for the 26" wheels
    > on the MTB?)

    Dear Dave,

    I hadn't thought of the possibility of the same speedometer being swapped without re-calibration
    between a road and mountain bike, but the differences turn out to be far less that 25%. My
    speedometer's table of expected circumferences shows:

    For 700x25 to 700x32, 2124mm to 2153mm. For 26x1.4 to 26x1.75, 1995mm to 2045mm.

    While crucial to those of us obsessed with numbers, this would provide only about a 4-6%
    reduction in the road bike speed, not the 25% reduction from 36 km/h to 27 km/h mentioned in the
    original post.

    A more plausible explanation is that the mountain bike's "36" might have been kilometers per hour,
    but the road bike's "27" was actually in miles per hour. A 36 kph reading on the mountain bike would
    be about 22 mph, versus a 27 mph reading for the road bike, satisfying my vague notion that road
    bikes should go faster than mountain bikes.

    Or the poor guy's back may just hurt so badly on the road bike that it drops his speed 25%. After
    all, it's bad enough that he's posting about it.

    Using 2109mm,

    Carl Fogel
     
  10. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:31:23 +1100, "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Hi Folks, I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...

    Don't know the Norco. I have a TCR2.

    >On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    >cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar

    That's probably something like a 48 x 14 gear? That would be 88.3 gear inches, regardless.

    >gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower
    >back pain...

    That would be a 39 x 15 or 52x19. That's 68.3 to 71.9 gear inches.

    You're running a significantly taller gear (that's even with the tire size factored in) on the MTB.
    You would have to shift into 52 x 15 to get a similar gear inch.

    >Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to handle
    >bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike are about
    >10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And

    Probably. The TCR2 has a very aggressive geometry, especially for somebody who's not Fabrizio.

    >would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike shop, and adjust the
    >road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I
    >should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck
    >it and see?

    Is the TCR2 your first road bike? Road bike fitting is different from MTB fitting. However, I've
    gone to a 130mm 45 degree rise stem on my TCR2. It helped tremendously; I could ride longer,
    farther, and faster.

    When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able to go for a good ride on the
    first try; before I put that stem on, at the end of the winter, having not ridden for months, I
    couldn't even fold myself into the position to ride it for more than a few minutes.

    Regarding others' posts:

    Carl Fogel is puzzled at your speed loss. I agree.

    David Kerber suggested that if you use one computer on both bikes, it's miscalibrated for one.
    You replied that you don't; however, one or both computers could be miscalibrated, regardless.
    Check that out.

    Tom suggests minding the ride quality. While I've found that my TCR2 is very comfortable riding with
    the tires at 125psi, you may not; in fact, if you are lighter than me (210 pounds), you might want
    to lower your pressure to 100, 90, or even 80 (at least for a test run).

    >Cheers,
    >
    >Andrew
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  11. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:16:29 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote:

    > separate computers... I've just had a look at where my heel is relative to the pedal when
    > fully extended, (try doing it with no-one to hold the bike steady ;-) ) and my leg extension
    > appears ok...

    But you do need to check how far back you are sitting on each bike, relative to the pedals.
    Mountain bikes tend to have slacker angles than road bikes, so maybe you are too far forward on the
    road bike.

    > Will find an Allen key, and flip the stem, and see how i go... if that doesn't work, will tilt the
    > seat forward a bit

    Not the best idea. Tilting the seat forward places more stress on your arms (holding you from
    slipping forward). This could make things worse. Try to get someone to help you get properly fit.

    No way should you be slower on a road bike than on a mountain bike. Something is really wrong. You
    also should not be in pain. This is, after all, supposed to be fun.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems. _`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  12. Jeff Starr

    Jeff Starr Guest

    "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    > separate computers... I've just had a look at where my heel is relative to the pedal when fully
    > extended, (try doing it with no-one to hold the bike steady ;-) ) and my leg extension appears
    > ok... I also don't think it's the seat angle... Will find an Allen key, and flip the stem, and see
    > how i go... if that doesn't work, will tilt the seat forward a bit

    Hi, I wouldn't tilt the seat forward, you'll end up putting lots of weight on your hands and wrists.
    You would be best served by having your saddle, pretty much level. If flipping your stem over isn't
    enough, you may have to buy a different one. Or as suggested, consult a fit specialist. Here is a
    chart that might help you: http://www.habcycles.com/fitting.html Jeff
     
  13. Hi Rick,

    "Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:31:23 +1100, "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >Hi Folks, I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    >
    > Don't know the Norco. I have a TCR2.

    The Norco is a 1998 MTB, stopped production mid-1999....

    > >On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at
    what I
    > >guestimate to be a cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
    similar
    >
    > That's probably something like a 48 x 14 gear? That would be 88.3 gear inches, regardless.
    >
    > >gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower
    > >back pain...
    >
    > That would be a 39 x 15 or 52x19. That's 68.3 to 71.9 gear inches.
    >
    > You're running a significantly taller gear (that's even with the tire size factored in) on the
    > MTB. You would have to shift into 52 x 15 to get a similar gear inch.

    Yeah, that was around whsat I was in to be figuring on the same ratios... Interestingly, I can also
    spin up to a max speed on flats of about 50 km/h on the MTB, but on the TCR2, i can reach 50 km/h
    fairly easily, but have trouble staying there... Again, with similar gear ratios...

    > >Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to
    stem,
    > >and front hub to handle bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on
    > >the road bike are about 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of
    > >my lower back pain?
    And
    >
    > Probably. The TCR2 has a very aggressive geometry, especially for somebody who's not Fabrizio.
    >
    > >would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the
    bike
    > >shop, and adjust the road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant
    > >headstem over, I should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it
    > >a matter of suck it and see?
    >
    > Is the TCR2 your first road bike? Road bike fitting is different from MTB fitting. However, I've
    > gone to a 130mm 45 degree rise stem on my TCR2. It helped tremendously; I could ride longer,
    > farther, and faster.

    No, i had an Avanti Corsa, 1999 model, which i had similar back issues on, however that was due to
    the "pro fit" i had done fitting me to a frame size that was one size too big... I have been ok on
    the TCR2 for about 1000 km, but the issues are starting to hit me now, especially as we're moving
    into summer here, and things are warming up...

    > When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able to go for a good ride on the
    > first try; before I put that stem on, at the end of the winter, having not ridden for months, I
    > couldn't even fold myself into the position to ride it for more than a few minutes.
    >
    > Regarding others' posts:
    >
    > Carl Fogel is puzzled at your speed loss. I agree.
    >
    > David Kerber suggested that if you use one computer on both bikes, it's miscalibrated for one. You
    > replied that you don't; however, one or both computers could be miscalibrated, regardless. Check
    > that out.

    Checked this one out, and both computers are set correctly... I'm confused too...

    > Tom suggests minding the ride quality. While I've found that my TCR2 is very comfortable riding
    > with the tires at 125psi, you may not; in fact, if you are lighter than me (210 pounds), you might
    > want to lower your pressure to 100, 90, or even 80 (at least for a test run).

    I run the TCR2 pressures at about 115 psi, and weigh around 75 kg (165-170 lbs) and find the bike a
    lot more comfortable than when I was running around 90 psi...

    I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find any allen keys) and see
    how we go from there...

    Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...

    Cheers,

    Andrew
     
  14. Rik O'Shea

    Rik O'Shea Guest

    "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...
    > Hi Folks,
    >
    > I ride a Norco Java MTB, and a Giant TCR2 Roadie...
    >
    > On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at what I guestimate to be a
    > cadence of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a similar gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h,
    > with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower back pain...
    >
    > Now, I've measured both bikes, being seat to bottom bracket, seat to stem, and front hub to handle
    > bar. The only major measurement difference I can find is that the bars on the road bike are about
    > 10 cm lower than on the mountain bike... Is this going to be the cause of my lower back pain? And
    > would the best way to work with this, to be to take both bikes into the bike shop, and adjust the
    > road bike to similar measurements as the MTB? I believe if I turn the Giant headstem over, I
    > should raise the handlebars about 5 cm... Is this going to be enough??? Or is it a matter of suck
    > it and see?
    >

    The lower bars are the most likely cause. Another is the distance the tip of the saddle is behind
    the bottom bracket spindle - you should check to see if there is a major difference here (5 mm can
    make a difference for some people). You need a plumline to carry this out correctly.

    One other thing that you should check that is often overlooked is the type of saddle and the saddle
    tilt. In your case you should ideally have the same saddle on both bikes. Since you suffer from back
    pain you should tilt the nose of the saddle down ever so slightly (use a spirit level on top on the
    saddle; dont check visually). A recent Israeli study into the effects of back pain on cyclists
    indicated that this was the most significant factor (rather than MTB v road position). A slight tilt
    is the saddle help rotate the hips forward and relieves strain in this area which contributes to
    back pain.
     
  15. Hi Rik,

    >
    > The lower bars are the most likely cause. Another is the distance the tip of the saddle is behind
    > the bottom bracket spindle - you should check to see if there is a major difference here (5 mm can
    > make a difference for some people). You need a plumline to carry this out correctly.

    I've had the stem flipped, which has raised it abotu 5 cm... We also moved the saddle back about 5
    mm, as the guy who helped me out felt that it was a little too forward for me...

    > One other thing that you should check that is often overlooked is the type of saddle and the
    > saddle tilt. In your case you should ideally have the same saddle on both bikes. Since you suffer
    > from back pain you should tilt the nose of the saddle down ever so slightly (use a spirit level on
    > top on the saddle; dont check visually). A recent Israeli study into the effects of back pain on
    > cyclists indicated that this was the most significant factor (rather than MTB v road position). A
    > slight tilt is the saddle help rotate the hips forward and relieves strain in this area which
    > contributes to back pain.

    We discussed saddle tilt, but I didn't want to change too many things at the same time, in case we
    make things worse...

    next week, if today's adjustments do not help, is to change the saddle tilt a little....

    Now all I need to do is to smack down some km's tomororw, and see if anything has changed!!!
     
  16. David Kerber

    David Kerber Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] says...
    > Hi Rik,
    >
    > >
    > > The lower bars are the most likely cause. Another is the distance the tip of the saddle is
    > > behind the bottom bracket spindle - you should check to see if there is a major difference here
    > > (5 mm can make a difference for some people). You need a plumline to carry this out correctly.
    >
    > I've had the stem flipped, which has raised it abotu 5 cm... We also moved the saddle back about 5
    > mm, as the guy who helped me out felt that it was a little too forward for me...
    >
    > > One other thing that you should check that is often overlooked is the type of saddle and the
    > > saddle tilt. In your case you should ideally have the same saddle on both bikes. Since you
    > > suffer from back pain you should tilt the nose of the saddle down ever so slightly (use a spirit
    > > level on top on the saddle; dont check visually). A recent Israeli study into the effects of
    > > back pain on cyclists indicated that this was the most significant factor (rather than MTB v
    > > road position). A slight tilt is the saddle help rotate the hips forward and relieves strain in
    > > this area which contributes to back pain.
    >
    > We discussed saddle tilt, but I didn't want to change too many things at the same time, in case we
    > make things worse...
    >
    > next week, if today's adjustments do not help, is to change the saddle tilt a little....

    Make sure it's a *little*. I've found that saddle tilt is the most sensitive adjustment on a bike.
    For me, there is a *very* small range where it's ok. I can move the saddle and handlebars up and
    down, or forward and back a cm or two without a major change in comfort (at least for rides up to 1
    hour), but even *very small* changes (1/2 turn on the micro adjust) in the saddle tilt can change it
    from "feels great" to "unbearable for rides longer than ten minutes". For me, the best is just
    slightly forward of perfectly flat. Mine has a slight U- shape, and I need to set it so that the
    _front_ section is perfectly horizontal, which makes the rear just slightly higher.

    --
    Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

    REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
     
  17. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 20:58:56 +1100, "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >Hi Rick, "Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >> >On the Java, running slicks, I can average around 36 km/h spinning at guestimate to be a cadence
    >> >of around 90 RPM... On the Giant, in a
    >similar
    >>
    >> That's probably something like a 48 x 14 gear? That would be 88.3 gear inches, regardless.
    >>
    >> >gear ratio, I can average about 27 km/h, with a cadence of around 80 RPM, but also get a lower
    >> >back pain...
    >>
    >> That would be a 39 x 15 or 52x19. That's 68.3 to 71.9 gear inches.
    >>
    >> You're running a significantly taller gear (that's even with the tire size factored in) on the
    >> MTB. You would have to shift into 52 x 15 to get a similar gear inch.
    >
    >Yeah, that was around whsat I was in to be figuring on the same ratios...

    If so, then one of your computers is wrong. Your 27 kph @ 80 rpm doesn't work for the 52x15. 80 rpm
    gives you 35 kph in 52x15. Are you measuring cadence with the computer or some other way?

    >Interestingly, I can also spin up to a max speed on flats of about 50 km/h on the MTB, but on the
    >TCR2, i can reach 50 km/h fairly easily, but have trouble staying there... Again, with similar gear
    >ratios...

    Yeah, sounds like fit to me.

    >> Is the TCR2 your first road bike? Road bike fitting is different
    >
    >No, i had an Avanti Corsa, 1999 model, which i had similar back issues on,

    Oh..well, I was hoping you had another road bike with good fit that you could measure against. So
    much for that idea. :)

    >however that was due to the "pro fit" i had done fitting me to a frame size that was one size too
    >big... I have been ok on the TCR2 for about 1000 km,

    Bummer. When one pays to be fit, one expects to be properly fit.

    >but the issues are starting to hit me now, especially as we're moving into summer here, and things
    >are warming up...

    Can I come and stay with you for 6 months or so? ;)

    >> When the winter ends and I want to ride again, I'll probably be able

    >I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find any allen keys) and see
    >how we go from there...
    >
    >Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...

    We'll be waiting...

    >Cheers,
    >
    >Andrew
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  18. Rick Onanian

    Rick Onanian Guest

    On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:39:19 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:16:29 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote: But you do need to check how far back you
    >are sitting on each bike, relative to the pedals. Mountain bikes tend to have slacker angles than
    >road bikes, so maybe you are too far forward on the road bike.

    The TCR2 does have quite a forward seat tube angle.

    >Try to get someone to help you get properly fit.

    I concur. At the very least, search for websites about fit and calculators. If necessary, I
    can compile a list of my bookmarks about fit, gathered when I was trying to find my correct
    fit on my TCR2.

    >No way should you be slower on a road bike than on a mountain bike. Something is really wrong. You
    >also should not be in pain. This is, after all, supposed to be fun.

    Or at the very least, if you're willing to put up with a little pain, do it because you're going a
    lot faster -- don't go slower AND hurt...unless you really dig that sort of thing.
    --
    Rick Onanian
     
  19. Rick, if you could post the bookmarks you used when fitting up your TCR2 that'd be great... so I can
    compare how mine actually fits....

    "Rick Onanian" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 22:39:19 -0500, "David L. Johnson" <david.jo[email protected]> wrote:
    > >On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 10:16:29 +1100, Andrew Morris wrote: But you do need to check how far back
    > >you are sitting on each bike, relative to the pedals. Mountain bikes tend to have slacker angles
    > >than road bikes, so maybe you are too far forward on the road bike.
    >
    > The TCR2 does have quite a forward seat tube angle.
    >
    > >Try to get someone to help you get properly fit.
    >
    > I concur. At the very least, search for websites about fit and calculators. If necessary, I can
    > compile a list of my bookmarks about fit, gathered when I was trying to find my correct fit on
    > my TCR2.
    >
    > >No way should you be slower on a road bike than on a mountain bike. Something is really wrong.
    > >You also should not be in pain. This is, after all, supposed to be fun.
    >
    > Or at the very least, if you're willing to put up with a little pain, do it because you're going a
    > lot faster -- don't go slower AND hurt...unless you really dig that sort of thing.
    > --
    > Rick Onanian
     
  20. Jeff Starr

    Jeff Starr Guest

    "Andrew Morris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:<[email protected]>...

    >
    > I'm just about to head off to the bike shop, to flip the stem (can't find any allen keys) and see
    > how we go from there...
    >
    > Will come back to the group once I've been for a ride...
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Andrew

    Hi Andrew, I would suggest that after you get this sorted out, it might be time to purchase a good
    multi-tool, for each bike. Something that you can and should carry with your tire repair gear. I
    like the Crank Micra 17, it is small, lightweight and seems well made. I find it very handy for on
    the road adjustments and I often use it at home too. To see the Micra 17, click on link:
    http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?category=&subcategory=&sku=5971&brand=0350 Jeff
     
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