weyless and wellgo?



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B

B. Sanders

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news:[email protected]...
>
> "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "KLydesdale" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...> When I say a
> bike
> > > is "custom", I mean "the bike was built with a customized
> > > > selection of components, and nothing about the bike is stock."
> >
> > > That's the commonly accepted definition? You could have fooled me.
> Since
> > I
> > > built my Curtlo Advanced Mountaineer when people ask me what type of
> bike
> > I
> > > ride, I just tell them a custom steel hardtail, the first questions
they
> > ask
> > > are who built the frame and how I went about specifying and ordering
it.
> > > There seems to be a tacit understanding a custom MTB means having a
> frame
> > > designed to your specifications.
> >
> > Ok, then how *do* you communicate clearly that your bike - not the
frame;
> > but the bike as a whole - was customized to your specs? If you don't
say
> > "custom bike," then what *do* you say? It's not accurate to simply say
"I
> > ride a Curtlo Advanced Mountaineer," unless you don't believe that
> component
> > choices matter. There's no such thing as a stock Curtlo, so it has to be "built to order."
> > That's the dictionary definition of custom.
> >
> > The vast majority of people don't even realize that bike frames can be ordered with precise,
> > personalized geometry (they don't even know what "frame geometry" means, so there's no point in
> > confusing the matter).
> >
> > <understatement>It's not the only ambiguous adjective in the English language.</understatement>
> >
> It should go without saying that if you buy a frame, at some point you're going to make choices
> about what parts go on it. Some people may pick
each
> individual part, and others may just buy a build kit. In the end a choice is still made about
> what goes on the bike. A newbie might call this a custom bike, but I don't think knowledgeable
> riders would.

Do you have any proof of your assertion? And if so, does it necessarily keep me from using
my definition, in absence of a dictionary reference? IOW: Why should I care what you think?
Make me care.

> We could always take a poll in this ng if you don't believe that statement.

> If someone says "custom bike" the first thing that comes to mind for me

Sample of one. Opinion noted.

> a handmade frame, built after consultation with the buyer. If you have a [Insert Brand Here]
> frame, built up with the hottest shite around, it still doesn't make it a custom bike.

Yes, it does.

> All it is, is a frame you built up with parts that you picked out.

Again, I ask the very simple question: What word do you choose to describe a bike that was entirely
built to order, as opposed to being purchased as a stock configuration? Which English word is most
commonly used to describe that? Not a paragraph. A word. One word. If you want to argue semantics,
you must be prepared to offer counterexamples (words that better express meaning).

> You can pull out your dictionary and argue that your bike fits the definition of 'custom', if that
> makes you feel cooler.

A dictionary is a reference tool, used to establish a baseline of understanding regarding semantics.
Nothing more. I don't feel "cooler" by establishing a common reference frame. It's the only way to
proceed rationally. We could, instead, attempt epistemological analysis, if you prefer. "X is custom
if and only if" and that sort of thing. Is that your preferred analytical framework? Go right ahead.

> Just don't expect anyone in this ng, or your LBS to buy into it.

My expectations about this NG are dropping daily, sorry to say.

-=B=-
 
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Shaun Rimmer

Guest
B. Sanders <[email protected]> wrote in message news:nST9b.483478$o%[email protected]...

> Sample of one. Opinion noted.

Add mine.

> Again, I ask the very simple question: What word do you choose to
describe
> a bike that was entirely built to order, as opposed to being purchased as
a
> stock configuration? Which English word is most commonly used to describe that? Not a paragraph. A
> word. One word. If you want to argue
semantics,
> you must be prepared to offer counterexamples (words that better express meaning).

Custom 'ised' is the only word I've heard used to describe a stock frame built up with customer
specced parts, the word 'custom' being reserved for a bike built up on a 'tailor made for the
customer' frame.

'Customised'.

Shaun aRe - HTH.
 
B

Benjamin Weiner

Guest
Stephen Baker <[email protected]> wrote:
> Barry says:

> >Ok, then how *do* you communicate clearly that your bike - not the frame; but the bike as a whole
> >- was customized to your specs? If you don't say "custom bike," then what *do* you say?

> "Upgraded" springs to mind, although it obviously does not convey the "coolness" factor you are so
> desperately reaching for.

> "It's a Curtlo Adv Mountaineer, but I've invested $2000 to improve it" is another, that at least
> conjures up images of vast fortunes spent in the reckless pursuit of speed (as opposed to just
> learning to ride what you got).

This reminds me of the Magliozzi brothers ("Click and Clack" from Car Talk on NPR) review of the
Lincoln Navigator SUV:

"It looks like a Ford Expedition that J.C. Whitney threw up on."

(For those of you not in touch with US car culture, J.C. Whitney is a big mail order catalog with
zillions of pages of tiny print of discount replacement parts, cheap chrome stuff, and "customizing"
accessories, tailpipes, fuzzy dice, leather jackets, etc.)

I propose that a.m-b adopt this phrase as descriptive of the lily-gilding aspect of bike upgrading.
Thus, I have a MTB that I built up myself from scratch and spare parts, but it isn't custom, for
goodness sake, it's just a GT frame that J.C. Whitney threw up on.

Ben
 
J

Jd

Guest
"B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Corvus Corvax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote
> > >
> > > If I had a Santa Cruz Blur with XTR, RaceFace, Marzocchi, Hope, etc,
> would
> > > it meet your criteria for "custom bike?"
> >
> > Nope.
>
> Then you're not speaking the same language that the rest of us are speaking.

To whom are you referring to in "the rest of us", barry bargain? The only language you may be
speaking is Romulan because it would seem that only other geeks can understand you. Now go watch
another "episode" so you can learn more of your "language".

JD
 
S

Super Slinky

Guest
Matt said...

> It should go without saying that if you buy a frame, at some point you're going to make choices
> about what parts go on it. Some people may pick each individual part, and others may just buy a
> build kit. In the end a choice is still made about what goes on the bike. A newbie might call this
> a custom bike, but I don't think knowledgeable riders would. We could always take a poll in this
> ng if you don't believe that statement.
>
> If someone says "custom bike" the first thing that comes to mind for me is a handmade frame, built
> after consultation with the buyer. If you have a Weyless frame, built up with the hottest shite
> around, it still doesn't make it a custom bike. All it is, is a frame you built up with parts that
> you picked out. You can pull out your dictionary and argue that your bike fits the definition of
> 'custom', if that makes you feel cooler. Just don't expect anyone in this ng, or your LBS to buy
> into it.
>
> -matt

Every bike is a custom by Barry's standard. I'm frankly amazed that he can't comprehend this basic
concept and continues to argue about it.
 
S

Spider

Guest
"B. Sanders" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<nST9b.483478$o%[email protected]>...

> news:[email protected]...
> > >
> > It should go without saying that if you buy a frame, at some point you're going to make choices
> > about what parts go on it. Some people may pick
> each
> > individual part, and others may just buy a build kit. In the end a choice is still made about
> > what goes on the bike. A newbie might call this a custom bike, but I don't think knowledgeable
> > riders would.
>
> Do you have any proof of your assertion?

It's called "common useage." In the bike world, when one says "custom", it has a certain connotation
amongst those who understand the jargon. "I put too much stuff in, so now it's fronting, but after a
few runs it was tailing - I think I've stripped some of the phase." I know exactly what this means,
and so would someone else in my profession, but you don't have any idea what I mean by any of that.

Give me an English lesson, please.

> And if so, does it necessarily keep me from using my definition, in absence of a dictionary
> reference?

Yes or no.

Yes, because if you want to appear knowledgeable in a subject, you have to come to terms with it's
jargon, even if that jargon is contradictory to your sensibilities.

No, if you want to be pedantic.

> IOW: Why should I care what you think? Make me care.

I don't think that it has anything to do with anything except your lack of understanding on
the issue.

> > We could always take a poll in this ng if you don't believe that statement.
>
> > If someone says "custom bike" the first thing that comes to mind for me
>
> Sample of one. Opinion noted.

If you were astute enough to goggle Google, you'd find the sample size to be a bit larger.

> > a handmade frame, built after consultation with the buyer. If you have a [Insert Brand Here]
> > frame, built up with the hottest shite around, it still doesn't make it a custom bike.
>
> Yes, it does.

Only according to your definition. Which is at odds with most experienced bicycle riders and
builders. Go ask a guy at the LBS what the word "custom" implies.

> > All it is, is a frame you built up with parts that you picked out.
>
> Again, I ask the very simple question: What word do you choose to describe a bike that was
> entirely built to order, as opposed to being purchased as a stock configuration?

Since stock frames can be hung with any manner of parts, all coming from different manuafacturers,
calling each of those bikes "custom" becomes meaningless when you consider, by your strictest
definition, this is a custome bike:

Costco Motiv with the Avilio front der replaced with an LX front der.

Tell me that's a custom bike.

> Which English word is most commonly used to describe that? Not a paragraph. A word. One word. If
> you want to argue semantics, you must be prepared to offer counterexamples (words that better
> express meaning).

No, it is you who is bucking for a semantics argument. For reference, common useage sometimes turns
words into something new. "Gay", "party
(v.)", and the list could go on and on and on.

In the bicycle world, "custom" connotes a specific thing. If I take my DB frame and send it to get a
new paint job, it does not become a custom bike. It just has a custom paint job.

> > You can pull out your dictionary and argue that your bike fits the definition of 'custom', if
> > that makes you feel cooler.
>
> A dictionary is a reference tool, used to establish a baseline of understanding regarding
> semantics.

But it cannot define every word in every useage. What does the word "bonk" connote?

> Nothing more. I don't feel "cooler" by establishing a common reference frame.

But it *isn't* common. It is you who are trying to make a wider definition from the
commonly-accepted. It is unfortunate that the word "frame" has been dropped, but that's just
tough beans.

> It's the only way to proceed rationally.

LOL. Please list the modes of rational language use and evolution, starting from Chaucer's time.
Please give me the permutations of the word "sweet", "radical" and "biff".

> We could, instead, attempt epistemological analysis, if you prefer.

Other than being self-aggrandizing, what would that accomplish for you? You want to have an
intellectual ****-measuring contest (sorta oxymoronic) then I'm your guy. Smarty-pants pissing
contests are my specialty.

> "X is custom if and only if" and that sort of thing. Is that your preferred analytical framework?
> Go right ahead.

A bike is custom if and only if the frame is built to user specifications. It's a stricter
definition than you would like, I get that. But it's how it is with experienced bicycle people.
Go outside
w.m-b. to verify this if you wish.

> > Just don't expect anyone in this ng, or your LBS to buy into it.
>
> My expectations about this NG are dropping daily, sorry to say.

And your expectations are meaningful in what way? I suspect that soon you will have another moniker
to hang on to: "Barely, the almost-MTBer." Sure, it's juvenile, but then again, I wouldn't want to
live up to any unrealistic expectations on your part.

Spider
 
S

Sorni

Guest
"Spider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> "I put too much stuff in, so now it's fronting, but after a few runs it was tailing - I think I've
> stripped some of the phase." I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in my
> profession, but you don't have any idea what I mean by any of that.

Obviously gay ****.

Bill "too bored to deal with any of the Barry bits" S.

PS: Stock, Modified, Built-to-order, Custom. Can I get an Amen (or Nema)?!?
 
S

Spider

Guest
"Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Spider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > "I put too much stuff in, so now it's fronting, but after a few runs it was tailing - I think
> > I've stripped some of the phase." I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in
> > my profession, but you don't have any idea what I mean by any of that.
>
> Obviously gay ****.

LMAO! Good one.

"I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in my profession,..."

So, Bill - how long have you been in gay ****? ;)

Spider

P.S. I noticed that Barry avoided engagement. Heh, "logical argument" indeed.
 
S

Sorni

Guest
"Spider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Sorni" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Spider" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> > > "I put too much stuff in, so now it's fronting, but after a few runs it was tailing - I think
> > > I've stripped some of the phase." I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in
> > > my profession, but you don't have any idea what I mean by any of that.
> >
> > Obviously gay ****.
>
>
> LMAO! Good one.
>
> "I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in my profession,..."
>
> So, Bill - how long have you been in gay ****?

Drat! I'll have to think these things through better...

Bill "never young; never needed the money" S.
 
B

Bomba

Guest
Spider wrote:

> "I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in my profession,..."
>
> So, Bill - how long have you been in gay ****?

3.5 inches.
 
S

Sorni

Guest
"bomba" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Spider wrote:
>
> > "I know exactly what this means, and so would someone else in my profession,..."
> >
> > So, Bill - how long have you been in gay ****?
>
> 3.5 inches.

It's not my fault you were clenching.

Bill "no idea what ANY of this even means" S.
 

karlt10

New Member
Nov 3, 2003
1
0
0
"B Sanders" As someone who has never visited this site I gotta agree with you- if people are too stupid to understand a simple phrase like 'custom bike' and not confuse it with 'custom frame', that is their problem.

Maybe this from the dictionary will help them:

bike: 1. a vehicle with two wheels tandem, a steering handle, a saddle seat, and pedals by which it is propelled

frame: 1 : to construct by fitting and uniting the parts of the skeleton of (a structure)

Once they learn that maybe they can come back and carry on an educated debate. Not intelligent, but at least educated.

I have to say I ordered a Weyless Ultra just 24 hours ago and just cancelled that order as I ran across more talk of breaking. At 6"2" & 225lbs I just can't risk it. I'm wondering if maybe I was a bit rush in my judgement. But Supergo's lack of decent customer service has me a bit concerned as well. They are quickly getting a very bad rep for bad service. I've already warned some friends back in Seattle where Supergo is opening a new shop.

For the peanut gallery, how does Weyless' geometry make it a 'copy' or 'knockoff'? Hell, some of the specs on my Bianchi Denaili match my old Specialized, which match a Yeti? So, who copied whom? The day everyone has their bike custom-fitted tube by tube will be the day that one company's hardtail geometry doesn't match 5 others.
 
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Stephen Baker

Guest
karlt10 says:

>"B Sanders" As someone who has never visited this site I gotta agree with you-

If you don't have the history, stop making stupid judgements. Sheesh!

<snip>

>For the peanut gallery,

Buddy, if you are posting through cyclingforums.com, you ARE the peanut gallery......

Steve
 
C

Corvus Corvax

Guest
karlt10 <[email protected]> wrote
>
> "B Sanders" As someone who has never visited this site I gotta agree with you- if people are too
> stupid to understand a simple phrase like 'custom bike' and not confuse it with 'custom frame',
> that is their problem.

Dear Karl:

Well put. This kind of insight is really rare on alt.mountain-bike.



CC

New! Special offer for Cyclingforums members: http://tinyurl.com/tmo2
 
P

Penny S

Guest
Corvus Corvax's cat walked across a keyboard and came up with this:
> karlt10 <use[email protected]> wrote
>>
>> "B Sanders" As someone who has never visited this site I gotta agree with you- if people are too
>> stupid to understand a simple phrase like 'custom bike' and not confuse it with 'custom frame',
>> that is their problem.
>
> Dear Karl:
>
> Well put. This kind of insight is really rare on alt.mountain-bike.
>

>

>

>
> CC
>
> New! Special offer for Cyclingforums members: http://tinyurl.com/tmo2

Too bad the editing changes the context signficantly. And why the heck is it dated April?

ps
 
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