What about teenagers with bikes?



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On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:00:21 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I do think they would benefit from real evangelism and lobbying.

We're the evangelists, though. Every time we ride on the road we're showing people it's
safe to do so.

Guy
===
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"Stephen Harding" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There are two make/break areas in promoting bicycle or alternate transport to my mind. These are
> land use policies which you mention, and road design.
>
> Land use policies of the post WWII years are beginning to be questioned. The concept of tract
> housing, tract malls, and the entire design of suburban communities is undergoing some real
> change. Newer ideas of mixing business and domicile areas, thus reducing or at least spreading out
> motor traffic has potential. Development of communities where all citizen's household
> food/supplies, social, and entertainment needs are within reasonable walking or bicycling
> distances is quite attractive, and well recieved by people living in them, albeit usually at
> higher price.

Mixed use isn't working too well except in areas of really high density where the streetscape is
business and the residential is in the upper floors. People in "walkable" or "modern urbanist"
communities are so accustomed to driving that they continue to follow their old habits and use their
auto anyway. Many modern urbanism communities with commercial in the center and residential
surrounding (think of a donut) have empty buildings in the commercial area. Modern businesses
requires such high traffic counts that businesses buried in the core cannot compete. A more
successful solution has been to cut the donut in half with a major road. This increases traffic
counts but at the expense of dividing the "walkable" community. The downside is that it is hard for
folks to resist using this more convenient method for getting down to the local store.

> Design of roadways allowing alternate means of transport better access is also very important.
> Whether it be a clearly marked bike lane, just a wide road shoulder, or even a separate path, such
> routes are more inviting to pedestrian or bicyclist (skateboarder, scoot, et. al.). You may argue
> about the desireability of separate paths or lanes, but the roadway must become more "inviting" to
> people choosing not to use a car.

There is a lot of truth in this observation. But more appealing facilities tend to be used for
recreation instead of transportation. Not necessarily a bad thing, but it depends on the goal you
are trying to reach.

> In realist terms though, nothing is going to change until driving becomes more demanding in time
> and/or money. Either taking your car out means hours of waiting in traffic and enduring the idiocy
> of others stuck with you, or a day trip in the car clearly will take $100.00 out of your pocket
> due to high fuel and insurance costs.

I once thought this myself. I thought that increasing the cost of gas, parking, or maybe making all
the major thoroughfares into tollways would solve our transportation problems. But the truth is that
it will only price lower income folks out of their cars. Then we have a real quandry. Because of the
way our cities are constructed, they cimply cannot be serviced by public transportation.

In an ideal world, cities would be a mix of commercial and residential uses where people of all
incomes could afford to live near where they work. But then human nature kicks in. It's hard to mix
commercial and residential when the ideal residence has a private park attached to the back. It's
hard to mix uses when NIMBY (not in my back yard) is the mantra which keeps industrial and heavy
commercial centers separate from residential. It's impossible to mix uses when planning and zoning
laws are designed to keep uses separate.

But is this really a bad thing? It's hard to say. When I think about global issues, I can look
objectively at the contributions of sprawl to the problem. But as I watch my kids safely play in our
back yard, I have to say that I enjoy this priviledge. I also enjoy dragging them around our
neighborhood in the trailer, saying hello to the kids who ride their bikes and the folks who walk
their dogs. Despite the lack of sidewalks and the presence of some fairly active through streets
(with some overly active teenage drivers), we still seem to get good use of our neighborhood.

I guess what I'm getting at is the situation is so complex that simple solutions like "let's
increase gas prices" will not be effective. To fix the diabolical problems we have created, we will
have to tackle it on many fronts, something which we, as a society, aren't equipped to do. To there
is too much segmentation in our government. There are too many feifdoms which would have to be
eradicated to make any real change. What's the solution? Beats me. I'll just keep pedalling and
looking for good ideas.

-Buck
 
"Isaac Brumer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Compared with other industries (e.g., auto, video...) HOW MUCH MONEY AND EFFORT HAS THE BIKE
> INDUSTRY (those who profit from manufacture and sale of bikes) SPENT IN THE PAST 12 YEARS TO
> PROMOTE ITSELF, PARTICULARLY TO YOUNG PEOPLE AND NEW CYCLISTS?
I can't remember the last time I saw a bicycle ad on TV unless it was during a bicycle race. Car ads
run all the time. People are constantly hit with car and truck ads, while bike ads are absent.
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> We're the evangelists, though. Every time we ride on the road we're showing people it's safe
> to do so.
People make a lot of decisions based on what they see in the media. There are almost no bike ads on
TV, and the only time bikes are really shown much is when the TDF is on.

Just because you see someone riding on the road doesn't mean that you will feel that it is a safe
thing to do. Most people will probably think that the person can't afford a car or is just riding
it for fun.
 
>Matt J wrote:

>> What about teens on BIKES, eh?

In article <[email protected]>, Stephen Harding
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I'm sorry to say that in the US, bicycle usage is in decline.

Ok. Not U.S., but close.

I look at my kids (18 and 20) who still don'T have their license. They get around by bicycle.

I'd like think that it was my influence, but I know I have NO influence on anything they do.

--
--
LITTLE KNOWN FACT: Did you know that 90% of North Americans cannot taste the difference between
fried dog and fried cat?
 
>What about teens on BIKES, eh?

Every teenager I see anymore looks like a disgusting, pudgy creampuff. They look like the Michelin
Man. When I was a teenager we used to walk 40 miles to school in chest-deep snow ... and we made fun
of the kids who look like the average teenager today.

The reasons are numerous.

It's sad, really.

Bob C.
 
>[email protected] (ComutrBob)

wrote in part:

> When I was a teenager we used to walk 40 miles to school in chest-deep snow ...

Luxury! We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed, eat a breakfast of cold gravel, walk
40 miles- uphill both ways- through chest deep snow just to get to the mailbox so we could
continue our correspondence courses. And it was *50* miles in the summer due to the flooding from
all that snowmelt.

Regards, Bob Hunt

P.S.- The above is offered with my sincerest apologies to Monty Python.
 
You had a bed?!?!?!? Stan "Hunrobe" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >[email protected] (ComutrBob)
>
> wrote in part:
>
> > When I was a teenager we used to walk 40 miles to school in chest-deep snow ...
>
> Luxury! We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed, eat a
breakfast of
> cold gravel, walk 40 miles- uphill both ways- through chest deep snow just
to
> get to the mailbox so we could continue our correspondence courses. And it
was
> *50* miles in the summer due to the flooding from all that snowmelt.
>
> Regards, Bob Hunt
>
> P.S.- The above is offered with my sincerest apologies to Monty Python.
 
"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message news:

> I guess what I'm getting at is the situation is so complex that simple solutions like "let's
> increase gas prices" will not be effective. To fix the diabolical problems we have created, we
> will have to tackle it on many fronts, something which we, as a society, aren't equipped to do. To
> there is too much segmentation in our government. There are too many feifdoms which would have to
> be eradicated to make any real change. What's the solution? Beats me. I'll just keep pedalling and
> looking for good ideas.

The overall solution isn't going to come from above, of course--it comes from millions of people
making a conscious decision to do one thing and not another. What policy can do is nudge those in
the right direction...

On the other hand, you can't just get on your bike and hope everything will turn out for the best.

Two things, though, that are sure vote-getters, even from the most reactionary Cadillac-Escalade
driving segment of the electorate:

-Increased law enforcement. Support your local police--hire more. More cops on the beat, better
enforcement of existing laws. Catch red-light runners, speeders, and other dangerous drivers.
Knock-on effect: "homeland security." Bonus if some of those new cops are properly-trained,
vehicular velocops.

-Better roadway maintenance. Smooth, wide roads for all. Paved shoulders/painted bike lanes
(enforced as above).

-Luigi
 
SC Hiker Biker wrote:

> Responding to Matt O'Toole:
>
> I more remember the banana seat bikes then the BMX bikes (were they even called BMX in the 70's? I
> don't recall). But yes, children if you noticed played a lot more outside back then. How things
> have changed. I also can't recall remembering an adult riding a bike in the 70's.

I can recall an adult riding a bike in the 70's..... wait a minnit! it was
me :-} Life was stressful for me in the early/ mid 70's. I cleared my head with regular rides on my
Shields 10 spd. Life just got better when I was out there dodging traffic, TTC streetcars, bike
eating storm drains. Weren't there any university students on 10 speeds in your area? Best
regards, Bernie
 
"Luigi de Guzman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Two things, though, that are sure vote-getters, even from the most reactionary Cadillac-Escalade
> driving segment of the electorate:
>
> -Increased law enforcement. Support your local police--hire more. More cops on the beat, better
> enforcement of existing laws. Catch red-light runners, speeders, and other dangerous drivers.
> Knock-on effect: "homeland security." Bonus if some of those new cops are properly-trained,
> vehicular velocops.

No arguments here. I have quite a few cops in my extended family.

> -Better roadway maintenance. Smooth, wide roads for all. Paved shoulders/painted bike lanes
> (enforced as above).

This would be great. But reality is one of those things that always gets in the way. The main access
road to all of the neighborhoods started life as a narrow two-lane country road with deep ditches
and no shoulders. The right-of-way was just big enough for the road and the two ditches. Because the
area wasn't in the city limits when developed and county planning controls are virtually
non-existent in Texas, we still have a narrow two-lane road with deep ditches servicing hundreds, if
not just over a thousand homes. OK, there are a few slightly larger thoroughfares in the area, but
this road is the major east-west connector between several of the larger north-south roads and is
the major connector to the nearest highway. Oh yeah, can't forget the community college by the
highway, the high-school less than a half-mile away and the two elementary schools all serviced by
this same road. Getting back to the lack of planning, all of the properties along the road have
their fences right at the ditch. Now that they are thinking of widening the road, they have to go
with storm sewers and still take part of all these people's yards.

The point of all that is that even a simple idea like making sure the road facilities meet a decent
standard can run into some crazy roadblocks because of the lack of power at some levels of
government. Considering that much of the new growth occurs outside the jurisdiction of local
municipalities, regionwide planning will have to become an integral part of the system before we
will see this happen.

Even in states where regionwide planning has become popular, small local municipalities with an itch
for growth tend to blow holes in the system. States like Texas have no desire to give more power to
the counties and the county officials don't want the responsibility. Until the cities fill the
entire county, county-level planning is mostly a joke.

I think the best bet is to get into a really well-planned community. Something with walking and
biking in mind. Something with the right mix of residential and commercial. I've seen desirable
elements in different communities around Texas. I'm sure that if enough people can bend the ears of
developers and convince them that bicycle and walking friendly facilities are desirable product
differentials that will result in extra profits, we will get the kind of communities we desire.

-Buck
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote:

> On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:00:21 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I do think they would benefit from real evangelism and lobbying.
>
> We're the evangelists, though. Every time we ride on the road we're showing people it's safe
> to do so.
>
> Guy

Shine on Guy! :-}
 
"Luigi de Guzman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> -Increased law enforcement. Support your local police--hire more. More cops on the beat, better
> enforcement of existing laws. Catch red-light runners
My guess would be that this would also snag a lot of bicycle riders. Many of the riders in my area
seem to think that they are exempt from the traffic laws.
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:

> >[email protected] (ComutrBob)
>
> wrote in part:
>
> > When I was a teenager we used to walk 40 miles to school in chest-deep snow ...
>
> Luxury! We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed, eat a breakfast of cold gravel, walk
> 40 miles- uphill both ways- through chest deep snow just to get to the mailbox so we could
> continue our correspondence courses. And it was *50* miles in the summer due to the flooding from
> all that snowmelt.
>
> Regards, Bob Hunt
>
> P.S.- The above is offered with my sincerest apologies to Monty Python.
>
>

You had a bed???

You got to eat???

Now thats luxury.

Didn¹t Bill Cosby do a skit on this?

HAND

--
³Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness³

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution
 
[email protected] (ComutrBob) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >What about teens on BIKES, eh?
>
> Every teenager I see anymore looks like a disgusting, pudgy creampuff. They look like the Michelin
> Man. When I was a teenager we used to walk 40 miles to school in chest-deep snow ... and we made
> fun of the kids who look like the average teenager today.
>
> The reasons are numerous.
>
> It's sad, really.
>
> Bob C.

Could be the case in more "middle american" towns. Not the case around here (a diverse suburb of
chicago.) Especially with girls - thin is in, right? The girls cross country team at my H.S. is
huuge, and only a few of them run seriously - they're mostly just in it to be skinny. This is, of
course, better than anorexia and such... But they're still not biking! A social emphasis seems to be
placed on fit guys, too, with weight rooms full of guys pumping iron. I think sedentaryness (?) may
be a problem, but it's not the only one. The price of bikes? Or simply that they're not (yet)
popular? Matt
 
Stephen Harding <[email protected]> wrote:

> Don't know if that is a reflection of kids not pedaling around neighborhoods anymore, or if the
> interest in road racing that brough many adults into bicycling has faded, or something else.

Must be a regional thing. In my neck of the woods (Mokena, IL, far SW suburban Chicago area), I see
kids on bikes all the time on the neigborhood streets. Not so much now with the cold snap we've had,
but if the temperature is anything above freezing, they'll be out.

One weekday, when I had a day off from work, I rode past a school in neighboring New Lenox, while it
was in session - the bike rack in front of the school was jammed to overflowing.

When the weather is nice, I see plenty of people of all ages out on the Old Plank Road Trail and its
feeders. Additional connecting trails are slowly but steadily appearing in the Joliet area, with a
new rail-trail from Joliet to the Kankakaee River just underway.

To the north and west, along the Fox River, there is another extensive trail network, reaching from
Oswego to the Wisconsin border, with connecting trails reaching eastward almost to Chicago, and
westward to DeKalb.

I don't always stick to trails, though - I prefer riding to go somewhere, rather than going
somewhere to ride, and I have no qualms about using roads to get there.
--
Russ Price * [email protected] * kill the wabbit to email

"Never use your face as a brake pad." -Jake Watson
 
Hunrobe <[email protected]> wrote:

> Luxury! We had to get up half an hour before we went to bed, eat a breakfast of cold gravel, walk
> 40 miles- uphill both ways- through chest deep snow just to get to the mailbox so we could
> continue our correspondence courses. And it was *50* miles in the summer due to the flooding from
> all that snowmelt.

Nothing like that nice bowl of Quarry Natural Cereal - chock full of essential minerals.
--
Russ "Better, because it's mined!" Price [email protected] * kill the wabbit to email
 
"Buck" <j u n k m a i l @ g a l a x y c o r p . c o m> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> But is this really a bad thing? It's hard to say. When I think about global issues, I can look
> objectively at the contributions of sprawl to the problem. But as I watch my kids safely play in
> our back yard, I have to say that I enjoy this priviledge. I also enjoy dragging them around our
> neighborhood in the trailer, saying hello to the kids who ride their bikes and the folks who walk
> their dogs. Despite the lack of sidewalks and the presence of some fairly active through streets
> (with some overly active teenage drivers), we still seem to get good use of our neighborhood.

I've often heard how the 'burbs are an ideal place to raise kids. Growing up in the 'burbs myself,
I thought they pretty much sucked, nowhere to go except the mall. I'm raising my kids 7-8 miles
from downtown (Boston) now, with the idea that that's where I would have wanted to grow up. We
frequently take bike rides into the city to visit museums and other cultural amenities. This past
summer, my son turned 14, and was able to get himself (by bike) downtown and back every day so that
he could participate in a (non-profit) sailing program. Kids will be kids, and they sometimes
grumble about not taking the car, but they always have a better time going by bike. Living in a
fairly urban neighborhood, we have a small house and yard, but we tell the kids when go into the
city: all this is your neighborhood, and when we go riding in a nearby reservation: all this (3,000
acres) is your backyard.

I suppose Boston is like so many cities (at least in the East), where there are many densely
populated communities just outside the actual city. For decades now, despite the occasional
"gentrification", the goals of the residents seem to have been to either try to emulate the lawn &
mall lifestyle of the true 'burbs, or to just pack up and move there when the opportunity presented
itself. My opinion is that these near-urban areas present the most appealing potential for a sane
lifestyle, but just happen to be somewhat out of fashion (thank you Martha Stewart). I remember when
"This Old House" (a locally produced program) was about rehabbing old homes in urban neighborhoods,
and not about "great rooms", granite slabbed kitchens, jacuzzi'ed bathrooms and Scandinavian heating
systems. Anyway, I digress. The point I'm trying to make is that for urban/inner belt living, the
bicycle makes an ideal form of transportation, and is practical in ways it will never be in the
sprawling suburbs. It's a particularly good fit to teenagers, who have the energy to ride lots, and
lack the finances to pay the increased costs of car parking and insurance in the city, and is
generally just the fastest & least hassle way to get around. Unfortunately, it's just not cool. The
thing I find really shocking is that after years of biking to museums, to outdoor concerts, to
parks, movies and restaurants, street fairs and festivals, I have *never* seen another family doing
that. Now that's sad.
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 24 Jan 2003 22:00:21 GMT, "Matt O'Toole" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I do think they would benefit from real evangelism and lobbying.
>
> We're the evangelists, though. Every time we ride on the road we're showing people it's safe
> to do so.

Maybe, unfortunately the impression I've received from talking to some is that they consider me a
reckless nut, even more so when I'm riding with my family.
 
Russ Price <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> Must be a regional thing. In my neck of the woods (Mokena, IL, far SW suburban Chicago area), I
> see kids on bikes all the time on the neigborhood streets. Not so much now with the cold snap
> we've had, but if the temperature is anything above freezing, they'll be out.

Russ, that is a sight that I would love to see, but never do. Is there anything different about the
education, promotion, etc. of bicycles that could cause this? If so, perhaps your community has a
great deal of information that could be of benfit to many other towns.
 
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