What Are We Doing Wrong ?

[edd]

We may be doing nothing wrong ?

But I thought I would check and see what you lot have to say...

I have been a recreational cyclist for more then 30 years, I’m fit but still people pass me when I’m riding and when I look up and see they’re ten years older then reality (and I’m 55) is telling me something I didn’t want to hear !

Well that was true a year ago, now I’m doing some passing of my own. Time to get serious, 7 hours on the bike every single week

2 hours every Saturday hunting hills. 5 hours during the week on an indoor trainer... it’s just the way it is.

The year begins..

First three months spending an hour and quarter on Sunday afternoons and two hours on Monday nights working at a constant 70% of max heart rate ( no power monitors )

Tuesday and Wednesday have off

Thursday 45min doing a standard RPM ( Les mills thing ) in a indoor cycling class, nine 5 minute blocks, two blocks taken to Anaerobic threshold.

Friday, same class different gym

Saturday on the road looking for hills.( 2 hrs )

March comes..

started doing some 3 x 7 min aerobic threshold blocks with four and a half minute recoveries between on Sundays. Now I read that the done thing was 4.5 minute aerobic threshold blocks and 8 minute recoveries but I found it takes about 3 minutes to get the heart up to 88% of max and 4.5 minute recoveries for this intensity seemed enough ?
takes 45 min.

On Mondays we started finishing the 2 hour block with a new drill I just dreamt up. 12 minutes of 5 seconds at attempted double pace in the saddle and 30 seconds out of the saddle climbing cadence. HR doesn’t get out of hand but Tuesday morning the legs are talking to me so some sought of training effect is going on..

April...

Start lifting the HR in the Monday 2 hour sessions to a sustained 75% of max HR.

Saturday still on the road but doing some group rides not just hill trying to hang onto the young bloods

Sundays doing the odd 30min MSLL session

May...

Start lifting the HR in the Monday 2 hour sessions to sustained 80% of max HR.

June.. I’m not sure where I’m going from here... thinking from here on in doing a 4 week mini period of all of the above with three weeks building and a fourth week recovery ( drop in volume or intensity )

Start speed work in August.. looking to peek in early November.

Aim... in 5 year be the fastest short distance 60 year old on the planet !

Oh and I'm not alone.. there are a few of us, so I thought I'd check because they're in on it too....

 

[VeloFlash]

So where is the pudding going to be proved?

Against weekend warriors or approved organised racing?

At your age classification in Australian masters racing (State and national) they try and select courses devoid of hills. So for specificity for racing, hills should only be used for V02 max work through intervals.

Unless of course you want to mix it with the youngbloods in graded club racing that is not age related but competence related. Bicisport, a club that races in northern Sydney (your area), is having a graded 10km time trial followed by a road race in the hilly Ku-Ring-Gai National Park on Sunday 15 March 2004.

Racing will not only provide you with incentive to train but will also serve to measure your progress.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by VeloFlash
So where is the pudding going to be proved?.

Thank you!!

I just knew I was missing something...desert !

I'm going to keep with hills this year, because it is my biggest weakness. Then gradually do more TT specific road stuff.

Building a new bike at the moment should be ready before 15 March...

Starting like rats.

 

[zewol]

Sounds like a great training plan, keep up the motivation high by passing the younglings and you'll end up greater than you hoped for I'm sure!

 

[Roadie_scum]

G'day edd.

As I've seen from your other posts, you're a smart cookie and I'm sure you already know this, but your personal goal has to be the most important thing here. What do you mean 'short distance'. Are we talking track sprints, pursuits, or maybe short TT's and crits? Or short distance RR's up to 100km?

 

[edd]

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
G'day edd.

As I've seen from your other posts, you're a smart cookie and I'm sure you already know this, but your personal goal has to be the most important thing here. What do you mean 'short distance'. Are we talking track sprints, pursuits, or maybe short TT's and crits? Or short distance RR's up to 100km?

For the moment a 10K TT is the aim because of my background, very good anaerobic ability, sustained power needs improving.

I certainly intend doing 100k stuff but I'm sure there are some old foxes out there who'd wipe the floor with me over that distance no matter how fit I become.

Had a national title in martial arts when I was 42, wasn't enough, want more !

 

[edd]

....... Looking to develop some really effective drills, just re-read this

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/1030.htm

I'm in multi minds about the implication of what is between the lines in this data..

Anyone have any insight ?

 

[VeloFlash]

Originally posted by edd
....... Looking to develop some really effective drills, just re-read this

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/1030.htm

I'm in multi minds about the implication of what is between the lines in this data..

Anyone have any insight ?

Reminds me of these studies. Improvements occur but no one can arrive at a conclusion as to why or recommend a training regime.

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0101/cf.htm

 

[edd]

Originally posted by VeloFlash
Reminds me of these studies. Improvements occur but no one can arrive at a conclusion as to why or recommend a training regime.

Maybe we can thrash out some generic principles that might benefit anyone putting a training regime together......

The thing that got me

“It is a low-volume strategy for producing gains” when referring to “High-intensity intermittent interval training consisting of short bouts of all-out activity”

seems to me to be the “poking it with a stick to see if is angry” type of logic.

I have found, through experience that if you train in “short bouts of all-out activity” your training volume drops dramatically, because you need time, lots of time, to recover.

And when you keep your training mostly and close to your aerobic training zones you can do a greater volume of training....

I have also found, through experience that if you drop a training drill and move on to another, you lose the ability to excel in that training drill...

implication...

the individual cogs are useless without a diagram of how the entire gear box is going to go together...

experiments continue..

 

[Roadie_scum]

OK, I've read that link (nice one edd - pretty interesting) and I'm gonna have a go at addressing some of what's raised. Others please jump in if you feel I get any of this wrong.

Firstly, all the athletes involved were already well trained and conditioned, meaning they had good endurance and aerobic fitness. Possibly the body won't respond as well to such intense stimulus when you lack that base. When structuring your training you will have to therefore evaluate whether you have sufficient aerobic conditioning. You also need to consider what your relative strengths and weaknesses are, your target event, and your training time.

The basic structure used for training in most endurance athletes is to build in volume, then build in intensity and drop volume. The main issues I guess are where to add in intensity and what kind of drills to add. Perhaps if you already have sufficent endurance and basic aerobic conditioning, you can add more intensity now.

Conconi reccomends aerobic power efforts to be added 2 months from the start of the competitive season, and anaerobic power and endurance workouts, as well as pure sprint training, 30-40 days out. He doesn't suggest how this relates to timing peaks - he's more concerned with riding out a whole 6-8 month season.

Many ironman triathletes start dropping volume and significantly but gradually building intensity 3 months from their peak event.

You seem to have fairly limited training time (7 hours) as well as targeting an individual TT style event and thus might be well suited to the Graham O'Bree approach (if you have the mental toughness) - get your basic aerobic conditioning up to scratch, and then work at intense drills, and a number of race replication sessions.

I think you're observation that training volume drops with intensity is spot on, and that's why you only start to add really significant amounts of intensity for limited periods in a training program. It doesn't hurt to drop volume for a little while though, as the volume based training gains should be sustained for at least as long as your build period into your peak.

 

[Geonz]

So, any studies that include femails of the species?

 

[Roadie_scum]

Originally posted by Geonz
So, any studies that include femails of the species?

Yes, lots. Pick a topic, then go search pubmed for your topic and the word female. Also, energy systems and training principles are largely the same between male and female athletes.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
The basic structure used for training in most endurance athletes is to build in volume, then build in intensity and drop volume. The main issues I guess are where to add in intensity and what kind of drills to add. Perhaps if you already have sufficient endurance and basic aerobic conditioning, you can add more intensity now.

A detraining effect will begin to erode the endurance base after 10 days, one's fitness in terms of oxygen uptake may be sustained or even improved by the shorter more intense work.. but one's ability to sustain a long event will begin to diminish... if you only intend to do short event, 1 hour or less.. no problem.

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Many ironman triathletes start dropping volume and significantly but gradually building intensity 3 months from their peak event.

One of the few exception where some continuing volume would seem to make sense to me...

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
You seem to have fairly limited training time (7 hours) as well as targeting an individual TT style event and thus might be well suited to the Graham O'Bree approach (if you have the mental toughness) - get your basic aerobic conditioning up to scratch, and then work at intense drills, and a number of race replication sessions.

I intend to add volume as the training progresses. At my age mental toughness is not an issue... adequate physical recovery is !

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
I think you're observation that training volume drops with intensity is spot on, and that's why you only start to add really significant amounts of intensity for limited periods in a training program. It doesn't hurt to drop volume for a little while though, as the volume based training gains should be sustained for at least as long as your build period into your peak.

I've followed a slightly different plan..

Three months build an aerobic basic ( I have no event calendar I have to compete in ) include one Pmax and three Supra-max blocks in each weeks training.

One month building a power base.. include one Pmax and three Supra-max block in each weeks training + one long slow every fortnight.

Then move to a three weeks building and one week recovery mini periods.

8 hours first week, 10 hours second week, 12 hours third week, 6 hours forth week.

each week to be structured slightly different, each week building on one drill, maintaining the others, + one very long slow every fourth week.

 

[Roadie_scum]

Originally posted by edd
A detraining effect will begin to erode the endurance base after 10 days, one's fitness in terms of oxygen uptake may be sustained or even improved by the shorter more intense work.. but one's ability to sustain a long event will begin to diminish... if you only intend to do short evens 1 hour or less.. no problem.



One of the few exception where some continuing volume would seem to make sense to me...

I'm not saying a complete cut in endurance training. Rather, whereas 4+ sessions a week might have been devoted to endurance base and low level aerobic work in the volume build, this is cut back progressively eventually leaving only one. The ironmen I know were still doing their 7 (yes, 7) hour ride once a week up to 2 weeks before the event, but the overall volume was cut back to make way for harder interval training etc, and allow sufficient recovery.

I intend to add volume as the training progresses. At my age mental toughness is not an issue... adequate physical recovery is !



I've followed a slightly different plan..

Three months build an aerobic basic ( I have no event calendar I have to compete in ) include one Pmax and three Supra-max block in each weeks training.

One month building a power base.. include one Pmax and three Supra-max block in each weeks training + one long slow every fortnight.

Then move to a three weeks build and one week recovery mini periods.

8 hours first week, 10 hours second week, 12 hours third week, 6 hours forth week.

each week to be structured slightly different, each week building on one drill, maintaining the others, + one very long slow every fourth week.

Yep, seems alright. 3 supra max blocks seems like a lot though, and the pmax training was done twice a week in the study to get the effect wasn't it? You wouldn't want to swap one supra for a P would you?

Also at issue is how long you can keep making gains from different forms of interval training - a topic too rarely addressed in my view. It is possible that a levelling out will occur in your improvement with Pmax and Supramax intervals (study was only 4 weeks remember), and that you would be better served by doing more low level aerobic work and using this stuff as a tune up leading to a peak - remembering all the study participants were seasoned riders who probably already had good aerobic condition. Not to say you've got it wrong, just chucking ideas in...

I especially think the supra-max work will have less long term effect if it is targeting CNS as was speculated in the study you linked to.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Yep, seems alright. 3 supra max blocks seems like a lot though, and the pmax training was done twice a week in the study to get the effect wasn't it? You wouldn't want to swap one supra for a P would you?

No you misunderstand... just one 4.5min Pmax block and just 3 x 30 sec. Supra-max blocks.. because these slip right into the Les Mills RPM classes just fine.. ( done in these initial periods )

QUOTE]Originally posted by Roadie_scum
Also at issue is how long you can keep making gains from different forms of interval training - a topic too rarely addressed in my view. It is possible that a levelling out will occur in your improvement with Pmax and Supramax intervals (study was only 4 weeks remember), and that you would be better served by doing more low level aerobic work and using this stuff as a tune up leading to a peak - remembering all the study participants were seasoned riders who probably already had good aerobic condition. Not to say you've got it wrong, just chucking ideas in [/QUOTE]

...so lets discuss them...

Why not make drills progressive, gradually ( very gradually) more demanding.

I never do drills or any form of training just because it is in a book.. you got to ask...why ? what will be the gains, can I measure these ?

I decided I wanted to increase my power production... so I designed a very very short very intense legs drill that doesn't blow the heart rate out of the water.. the problem I see with this drill is there may be some hypertrophy as part of the training effect..

Now I remember reading on another thread... Ric stating that hypertrophy will inhibit mitochondria and capillary development within the muscle... then I also remembered the study with the women cyclist who did strength building squats and at the end of the study, the women could squat more but their cycling ability remained unchanged...... unchanged ? It didn’t deteriorate... did it ?

.... time for another to show us some science, come on make an **** of me.. I begging for it ...

 

[edd]

PS...

to anyone reading this, I should add

even though we're discussing short intense drills here, the bulk of my training is large blocks of sustained aerobic work in what .. I think most coaches refer to as training in Zone 2.. this is a pretty broad zone and I think I'd like to poke a stick at this later in this thread, anyway this work has yielded some very good measured gains.. meanwhile you might like to read this...

http://www.abcc.freeserve.co.uk/wright1.html

 

[dot]

Originally posted by VeloFlash
Reminds me of these studies. Improvements occur but no one can arrive at a conclusion as to why or recommend a training regime.

http://www.sportsci.org/jour/0101/cf.htm

No problem.

just read this: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0129.htm

 

[edd]

Originally posted by dot

just read this: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0129.htm

what an excellent article....

I would like to raise a point.... if we get lost in the science, we some times over look some of the obvious consequences of any type of training, that of specificity

too specific.. and you on the road to ever diminishing gains.. Too diverse and you're just wasting time..

And please note that a lot of the time frames noted in the article were specific to rats.

 

[dot]

Originally posted by edd
what an excellent article....

I would like to raise a point.... if we get lost in the science, we some times over look some of the obvious consequences of any type of training, that of specificity

too specific.. and you on the road to ever diminishing gains.. Too diverse and you're just wasting time..

And please note that a lot of the time frames noted in the article were specific to rats.

I read the same studies with the same results performed on humans. Just read this link on sportsci.org again.
It tells about increased oxidative activity in muscles after sprint training.
High intensity recruits a lot of poorly trained muscle fibers and some conditions (higher lactate level, exhaustion) force fibers to boost their endurance. i.e. to build capillars and mitochondias to reduce discomfort from intensive workouts.

 

[edd]

Originally posted by dot
I read the same studies with the same results performed on humans. Just read this link on sportsci.org again.
It tells about increased oxidative activity in muscles after sprint training.
High intensity recruits a lot of poorly trained muscle fibers and some conditions (higher lactate level, exhaustion) force fibers to boost their endurance. i.e. to build capillars and mitochondias to reduce discomfort from intensive workouts.

I'm just suggesting that there is still a very good argument to train in 2.5 hour blocks at a lower intensity.. one that can be sustained or can be performed where the ( volume/intensity/recovery/best measured gains ) calculation is understood....

You, having read the same study..... your understanding of the implications are ?